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 Post subject: Re: What a difference a month makes?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 12:50 pm 
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nad69dan wrote:
omgardd wrote:
Thanks. Maybe since I live here in Pittsburgh and not in Jersey City, I should take my opinions to the Mets message board where someone can tell me all about the Mets season, and I'll check the Mets boxscores from time to time and I should be good to go right?
All the information I should need to go on a message board act like I know what I'm talking about in regard to Met baseball, yes?


Just cuz the dude doesnt live near Pittsburgh doesn't mean he can't be a fan...and just because he's living in New Jersey doesn't make him a Mets fan, A Springsteen fan or Bon Jovi fan!!!

Come on, that was somewhat of a childish comment...


I live in Maryland... Other than being dumbed down by the state, I feel as though I'm a pretty good fan.


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 Post subject: Re: What a difference a month makes?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 2:12 pm 
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Can all you guys who push for all these "all prospects all the time" school of baseball guarantee us, the fans, that they will work out? Can you guarantee it?

Let's face it, it's a gamble and a crap shoot. What should happen, and what does actually happen, are quite often two different things.

We hear about the outfield phenom in Altoona, but he has yet to play a big league game. Hansen was supposed to be "a stud", but that isn't working out. Moss is decent, but he's no Bay or Nady. I still see the pitching giving up 8 runs a game, just like before the trade.

Sure, the need is there to build for the future. But, what about the fans buying the tickets for today's game? Don't they deserve a little respect.....don't they deserve the club to put the best product on the field that they can? Or, are they just supposed to fork over the money and continue to "wait until 2011, when the 'prospects' are all stars". Then, we can watch all the "prospects who became stars" be traded for more "prospects". Heck, some of us may not even be here in 2011....tomorow is guaranteed to no body.

My frustration is this.....I had watched the bucs since the late fifties, and sat through 15 years of losing. At the beginning of this year, the club was entertaining, and, although still not having a winning record, but wa competitive and fun to watch. Then the trades came, and the result since the trades have been pathetic, period. It's not even fun to go to the park anymore. And we've done this for sixteen years straight.

Of course I'll still watch.....Of course I think these kids try their best. I don't think they are dogging it. But, in my mind they are telling me that maybe the losing streak will stop at twenty years, when the "prospects" work out. Maybe.

You guys can sugarcoat this, put the smiley face on it all you want. But, the proof is in the pudding.


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 Post subject: Re: What a difference a month makes?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 4:05 pm 
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Well we weren't winning with Nady or Bay were we? They sure had a ton of MLB AB's. Being a competitive team is having 25 guys who are good, not just 2 or 3.


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 Post subject: Re: What a difference a month makes?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 4:30 pm 
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Steve1118 wrote:
Can all you guys who push for all these "all prospects all the time" school of baseball guarantee us, the fans, that they will work out? Can you guarantee it?

Let's face it, it's a gamble and a crap shoot. What should happen, and what does actually happen, are quite often two different things.

We hear about the outfield phenom in Altoona, but he has yet to play a big league game. Hansen was supposed to be "a stud", but that isn't working out. Moss is decent, but he's no Bay or Nady. I still see the pitching giving up 8 runs a game, just like before the trade.

Sure, the need is there to build for the future. But, what about the fans buying the tickets for today's game? Don't they deserve a little respect.....don't they deserve the club to put the best product on the field that they can? Or, are they just supposed to fork over the money and continue to "wait until 2011, when the 'prospects' are all stars". Then, we can watch all the "prospects who became stars" be traded for more "prospects". Heck, some of us may not even be here in 2011....tomorow is guaranteed to no body.

My frustration is this.....I had watched the bucs since the late fifties, and sat through 15 years of losing. At the beginning of this year, the club was entertaining, and, although still not having a winning record, but wa competitive and fun to watch. Then the trades came, and the result since the trades have been pathetic, period. It's not even fun to go to the park anymore. And we've done this for sixteen years straight.


How do you know when its time for someone to become a free agent 3 or 4 years from now, that the Pirates won't sign them, if they're worth the money?

This team was void of any depth and talent in the minors, and your 2 big pieces to bring quality talented depth were soon to be free agents...

Moss isn't Bay or Nady RIGHT NOW!!! but I've liked the power I've seen out of his bat and he looks like he could become Bay-like in the future

Tabata who knows, but things are looking good considering he's 19 and was at AA...

I understand the need for the fans wanting to see a quality product and the team was entertaining before the trades...so I guess it's ok to lose as long as it's entertaining...I could go play my guitar in RF during the games, thats entertaining too...

16 straight years of losing, yeah it sucks, but if you can't see past that and the effort management has put into this team then thats your problem...You got suckered into the Smizik columns in the Post-Gazette and the rest of the media...It's just a number!!!

But it hasn't been 16 years under this group...Dave Littlefield and McClatchy are not part of it, and Neal Huntington and Frank Coonelly weren't here for the 1st 15...

Yeah it sucks, but take it knowing they are trying their best to turn this team around quickly

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 Post subject: Re: What a difference a month makes?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 5:19 pm 
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nad69dan wrote:
Yeah it sucks, but take it knowing they are trying their best to turn this team around quickly

And, given the successes of other clubs who performed similar moves in the past, doing so in the best way possible.

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 Post subject: Re: What a difference a month makes?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 5:27 pm 
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"How do you know when its time for someone to become a free agent 3 or 4 years from now, that the Pirates won't sign them, if they're worth the money?"

Sixteen years of history says it won't happen.

"Moss isn't Bay or Nady RIGHT NOW!!! but I've liked the power I've seen out of his bat and he looks like he could become Bay-like in the future"

Christmas is coming, too. The key word there is could.

"Tabata who knows, but things are looking good considering he's 19 and was at AA..."

That's right. Who knows?

"I understand the need for the fans wanting to see a quality product and the team was entertaining before the trades...so I guess it's ok to lose as long as it's entertaining...I could go play my guitar in RF during the games, thats entertaining too..."


I don't buy a ticket to see you play guitar. I buy a ticket to watch major league baseball.


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 Post subject: Re: What a difference a month makes?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 7:30 pm 
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Me think that the argument is running out of steam. Everyone really wants the same thing. Everyone is frustrated. So, what to do. Can we still have a competitive team and build the system. The answer seems to be no.

I like the way it's being done. Some don't and only time will tell.

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2011 Will Be Our Year -- well make that 2012 (just saying) So it looks like 2013 now - how long must this go on!
THIS IS IT-- NO MORE STREAK!!! *** Finally*** Time to win it in 2014


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 Post subject: Re: What a difference a month makes?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 8:04 pm 
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Substitute2 wrote:
Me think that the argument is running out of steam. Everyone really wants the same thing. Everyone is frustrated. So, what to do. Can we still have a competitive team and build the system. The answer seems to be no.

Actually, you can, but you must have a competitive team and a good farm system at the outset of a season, and the Pirates had neither in 2008. So the question becomes whether the team should attempt for the short term burst or focus on the long term gain. Given such a choice, I would always go for the latter, as it usually leads to happier results.

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"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."
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 Post subject: Re: What a difference a month makes?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 8:50 pm 
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With neither, you must make a choice. The Pirates have done that. In a couple years maybe we will be competitive and at that point your argument is correct. You can have a team and rebuild the minors at the same time. Not now.

We will always need to let most FAs go because of the make up of the baseball financial unbalance. We just can't outbid the Yankees, Sox, etc.
So, we need to continue to make good drafts and few or no mistakes in talent evaluations. Always looking to re-build our talent as older, more expensive guys leave for the big money.

_________________
2011 Will Be Our Year -- well make that 2012 (just saying) So it looks like 2013 now - how long must this go on!
THIS IS IT-- NO MORE STREAK!!! *** Finally*** Time to win it in 2014


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 Post subject: Re: What a difference a month makes?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 9:59 pm 
Substitute2 wrote:
With neither, you must make a choice. The Pirates have done that. In a couple years maybe we will be competitive and at that point your argument is correct. You can have a team and rebuild the minors at the same time. Not now.

We will always need to let most FAs go because of the make up of the baseball financial unbalance. We just can't outbid the Yankees, Sox, etc.
So, we need to continue to make good drafts and few or no mistakes in talent evaluations. Always looking to re-build our talent as older, more expensive guys leave for the big money.


I believe you build with young players but NEVER thrown in the towel on a year before it even begins. You try to win every inning, every game, every year. Anyone who has been involved in successful athletics understand this level of competitiveness.


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 Post subject: Re: What a difference a month makes?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 11:52 pm 
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Steve1118 wrote:
Can all you guys who push for all these "all prospects all the time" school of baseball guarantee us, the fans, that they will work out? Can you guarantee it?

I'll be glad to address that as soon as you stop misrepresenting what we say.

Quote:
Let's face it, it's a gamble and a crap shoot. What should happen, and what does actually happen, are quite often two different things.

Yes. You can say the same thing about signing veteran free agents.

Quote:
We hear about the outfield phenom in Altoona, but he has yet to play a big league game. Hansen was supposed to be "a stud", but that isn't working out. Moss is decent, but he's no Bay or Nady. I still see the pitching giving up 8 runs a game, just like before the trade.

Hansen wasn't supposed to be a stud. He was supposed to be a guy who throws very hard, but has serious control problems, and that's exactly what he's turned out to be.

Feel free to point out the post wherein anyone claimed that Moss is the equal of Bay or Nady, and keep in mind that Moss was the third best guy we got in the Bay trade.

Moss is much better than Nady was at the same age. Jason Bay had a total of 87 at bats at the age of 24, though they were outstanding at bats. I think it's likely that Moss will turn out to be better than Nady, but not as good as Bay.

Quote:
Sure, the need is there to build for the future. But, what about the fans buying the tickets for today's game? Don't they deserve a little respect.....don't they deserve the club to put the best product on the field that they can? Or, are they just supposed to fork over the money and continue to "wait until 2011, when the 'prospects' are all stars". Then, we can watch all the "prospects who became stars" be traded for more "prospects". Heck, some of us may not even be here in 2011....tomorow is guaranteed to no body.

THEN DON'T BUY TICKETS FOR TODAY'S GAME. If you're not enjoying yourself, find something else to occupy your time until the team is finally turned around. I'll be here to welcome you when you jump back on the bandwagon, and there will be no recriminations beyond a few I told you so's.

Quote:
My frustration is this.....I had watched the bucs since the late fifties, and sat through 15 years of losing. At the beginning of this year, the club was entertaining, and, although still not having a winning record, but wa competitive and fun to watch. Then the trades came, and the result since the trades have been pathetic, period. It's not even fun to go to the park anymore. And we've done this for sixteen years straight.

The Pirates were 48-55 when they traded Nady, and they had no chance at making the playoffs. Obviously your definition of "competitive" is rather different from mine. I don't think that a team that has failed to reach the level "mediocre" can be called competitive.

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Of course I'll still watch.....Of course I think these kids try their best. I don't think they are dogging it. But, in my mind they are telling me that maybe the losing streak will stop at twenty years, when the "prospects" work out. Maybe.

You guys can sugarcoat this, put the smiley face on it all you want. But, the proof is in the pudding.

The pudding just went on the stove. It won't be done cooking for at least two years.

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 Post subject: Re: What a difference a month makes?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 11:58 pm 
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Steve1118 wrote:
"How do you know when its time for someone to become a free agent 3 or 4 years from now, that the Pirates won't sign them, if they're worth the money?"

Sixteen years of history says it won't happen.

"Moss isn't Bay or Nady RIGHT NOW!!! but I've liked the power I've seen out of his bat and he looks like he could become Bay-like in the future"

Christmas is coming, too. The key word there is could.

Yep, and both Bay and Nady COULD revert to the performances that they put up last year. Come to think of it, if Nady continues to match his production over the last month, you could say that he already has.

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"Tabata who knows, but things are looking good considering he's 19 and was at AA..."

That's right. Who knows?

I know. Barring injury, Tabata will be a major league regular at minimum. His upside is All-Star.

Quote:
"I understand the need for the fans wanting to see a quality product and the team was entertaining before the trades...so I guess it's ok to lose as long as it's entertaining...I could go play my guitar in RF during the games, thats entertaining too..."


I don't buy a ticket to see you play guitar. I buy a ticket to watch major league baseball.

So don't buy a ticket.

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"Enjoy every sandwich." - Warren Zevon


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 Post subject: Re: What a difference a month makes?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 10:16 am 
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Speaking of Tabata...for the statheads, does anyone know what Tabata's Davenport Translations are, and if he's had a large enough sample of PAs to conclude anything from them?


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 Post subject: Re: What a difference a month makes?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 10:03 am 
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jaybee24 wrote:
Speaking of Tabata...for the statheads, does anyone know what Tabata's Davenport Translations are, and if he's had a large enough sample of PAs to conclude anything from them?

Not a clue. I don't start paying much attention to them until a player makes it to AAA. For a 19 year old in AA they aren't much better than an educated guess, especially for a guy like Tabata. He could go on to become a high average guy with 10 home run power, or turn into a power hitter. The thing I look for in young players is a broad base of skills; a little speed, a little average, a little power, a little strike zone judgement, a little defense. That way you' might have a player if only one or two of those areas develop. A guy with all of his eggs in a single basket has less of a chance of making it.

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