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 Post subject: Re: What is going on with Alvarez?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 11:49 am 
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Piratefan13 wrote:
I don't want the kid...


That's harsh. He's a young kid from a poor family under the influence of a very powerful and persuasive man. I can understand how this could happen. Give the kid a break.


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 Post subject: Re: What is going on with Alvarez?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 11:52 am 
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I'm pretty confident after reading everything that this will all work out ok in the end. I don't see how an arbitrator could void the Alvarez deal without voiding the others that came after the deadline and I don't see that happening. I think Alvarez is a Pirate by mid-September.


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 Post subject: Re: What is going on with Alvarez?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 12:31 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
bullishhitter wrote:
No. 9 wrote:

BM -
In my mind, this is clearly a negotiating strategy employed by Boras and he is using the 12:00 a.m. deadline as leverage for more money.
If the Pirates were willing to renegotiate the terms of that agreement, then Boras/Alvarez would say that the original agreement was before 12:00 a.m.
If the Pirates are not willing to renegotiate the terms of that agreement, then Boras/Alvarez will say that the original agreement was after 12:00 a.m.
It should be black and white - as you suggest - but Boras won't allow that.


The agent is doing what is best for his client. If he can use a loophole to do it, he is doing his job. Dirty pool..you bet. Pirate management has been taken advantage of and looks to be caught with their pants down.


Three questions:
1. What loophole?
2. How exactly was Pirates management caught with their pants down?
3. What are you contending that Pirates management could have done differently
?


Here is the loophole
Quote:
Jim Callis: I too don't understand how if a guy signed after the deadline, that means he can continue negotiating today. I confirmed with multiple sources that the Royals and Hosmer were granted an extension by MLB. I also heard but could not confirm that the Pirates and Alvarez (and the Nationals and Crow) got the same extension, and that Alvarez signed a few minutes after the deadline but before Hosmer. As the Pirates mention in their statement, if Alvarez' deal is invalid, that could put Hosmer's in jeopardy. And why wasn't this raised earlier?

They did not make a call for the extention...if they make the call Boras cant make his invalid contract claim

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 Post subject: Re: What is going on with Alvarez?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 2:41 pm 
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I don't want him either. You either make a deal or you don't. Don't give me any of this wishy-washy games-playing bullshit. Hit the road and good luck next year kid.


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 Post subject: Re: What is going on with Alvarez?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 2:56 pm 
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Ralphie wrote:
I don't want him either. You either make a deal or you don't. Don't give me any of this wishy-washy games-playing bullshit. Hit the road and good luck next year kid.


The irony in all of this ......if this is not solved and he goes back to school next year, he may be there for the Pirates to draft. Are you going to pass(assuming he looks to be just as talented as now)the best player available like they have done in years past?

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 Post subject: Re: What is going on with Alvarez?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 3:33 pm 
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bullishhitter wrote:
Ralphie wrote:
I don't want him either. You either make a deal or you don't. Don't give me any of this wishy-washy games-playing bullshit. Hit the road and good luck next year kid.


The irony in all of this ......if this is not solved and he goes back to school next year, he may be there for the Pirates to draft. Are you going to pass(assuming he looks to be just as talented as now)the best player available like they have done in years past?


You do when you have 2 of 3 top draft picks and you dont know who is going to come out of the draft next season...There may be a stud blossoming next season just waiting to get drafted in the top 5

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 Post subject: Re: What is going on with Alvarez?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 4:11 pm 
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Quote:
"I have read the statement issued by Frank Coonelly, President of the Pittsburgh Pirates, regarding Pedro Alvarez. Frank's statement also refers to the contract between Eric Hosmer and the Kansas City Royals. The Association, after further investigation and the processing of the Grievance, will determine what relief it will seek from the Arbitration Panel, including whether it will seek relief related to agreements accepted by the Commissioner's Office after the collectively bargained signing deadline.


The underlined obviously has Borass licking his chops.

Quote:
"Moreover, based on information gathered to date by the Association, Frank's statement is inaccurate in a number of respects. While the Association will not respond specifically through the press, we are confident that, at hearing, the Panel will agree that the Commissioner's Office acted improperly when it unilaterally changed the terms of the deal it struck with the Association in 2006."


http://mlbplayers.mlb.com/pa/releases/r ... ent=082708

The hearing should interesting.


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 Post subject: Re: What is going on with Alvarez?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 4:14 pm 
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I'd love to know what Alvarez and his family are thinking right now...

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 Post subject: Re: What is going on with Alvarez?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 6:03 pm 
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Eric Bowser wrote:
I blame the Pirates for even getting themselves into this situation.


How are the Pirates to blame? Boras has never denied what the Pirates say about the negotiations - that Boras literally did not communicate with the Bucs until 11:56 p.m. on the last day for signing.

What are the Pirates supposed to do? Take a hostage and demand to speak with Boras? Kidnap Boras and transport him to the Pirates' office?

This "situation" occurred because Boras hates the August 15 deadline. He has repeatedly made that clear. He has instituted a policy of refusing to discuss contracts until after 11:00 p.m. on August 15, just to "show them what is what."

It is no coincidence that the last-second signings are mainly Boras clients. The "last second discussion and deals" are his modus operandi.


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 Post subject: Re: What is going on with Alvarez?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 6:07 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
But, Arg, Boras was NOT his agent. Was not allowed to be. He was merely an advisor until Alverez agreed to a deal.
ZM


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 Post subject: Re: What is going on with Alvarez?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 7:17 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
ZelieMike wrote:
But, Arg, Boras was NOT his agent. Was not allowed to be. He was merely an advisor until Alverez agreed to a deal.
ZM


Image


Nice to see you back after a few days missing Bucfan...

I was putting in overtime this week finding graphics to keep up the high standards you have set on the board...


Attachments:
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funny-pictures-15-cents-stop.jpg [ 41.09 KiB | Viewed 395 times ]

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I say keep the $50 and ban him anyway...

For those jumping ship, we'll keep the bandwagon warm for you...
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 Post subject: Re: What is going on with Alvarez?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 7:37 pm 
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bullishhitter wrote:
Here is the loophole
Quote:
Jim Callis: I too don't understand how if a guy signed after the deadline, that means he can continue negotiating today. I confirmed with multiple sources that the Royals and Hosmer were granted an extension by MLB. I also heard but could not confirm that the Pirates and Alvarez (and the Nationals and Crow) got the same extension, and that Alvarez signed a few minutes after the deadline but before Hosmer. As the Pirates mention in their statement, if Alvarez' deal is invalid, that could put Hosmer's in jeopardy. And why wasn't this raised earlier?

They did not make a call for the extention...if they make the call Boras cant make his invalid contract claim


I guess I'm still missing where Boras has found a "loophole." Or, in the alternative, maybe you and I aren't seeing "eye to eye" on what exactly is a loophole.

Given the nature of the grievance, there are two potential outcomes: (1) the contract is valid; (2) the contract is not valid. It appears that the only way that the contract is deemed invalid is if the deadline passed without a viable extension. Alvarez agreed to the deal. The Pirates agreed to the deal. This is called mutual assent. If the contract is voided, then both Alvarez' desire and the Pirates' desire is circumvented. This is not a situation where someone takes advantage of a situation to get what they want. It is not as if Alvarez is taking advantage of a loophole to force a contract upon the Pirates or the Pirates taking advantage of a loophole to force a contract upon Alvarez. They both agreed to a $6M guaranteed signing bonus.

In my eyes, "loopholes" are gaps in contracts which fail to address a situation which ultimately arises. As a practicing attorney who has drafted a few contracts in my career, attorneys try to contemplate what situations might ultimately arise. Here, there is no "loophole." Either the contract was timely or it was not. If it is deemed to be untimely and a material breach, the agreement will be found void. That's not what I deem to be a "loophole." In legal parlance, that is what is called a condition precedent to enforceability of an agreement.

Just my $.02.

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 Post subject: Re: What is going on with Alvarez?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 7:57 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
How are the Pirates to blame? Boras has never denied what the Pirates say about the negotiations - that Boras literally did not communicate with the Bucs until 11:56 p.m. on the last day for signing.

What are the Pirates supposed to do? Take a hostage and demand to speak with Boras? Kidnap Boras and transport him to the Pirates' office?

This "situation" occurred because Boras hates the August 15 deadline. He has repeatedly made that clear. He has instituted a policy of refusing to discuss contracts until after 11:00 p.m. on August 15, just to "show them what is what."

It is no coincidence that the last-second signings are mainly Boras clients. The "last second discussion and deals" are his modus operandi.


Bucfan -
I agree with you wholeheartedly on this. Even if the Pirates upped their initial $5M offer to $6M or $7M (bidding against themselves - which is a huge negotiation "no-no") in the days before the deadline, Boras would have advised Alvarez to keep waiting for more. Boras' negotiating ploy is not novel. It is commonly used in litigation. Wait, wait, wait, wait and see if the other side crumbles. Only when you are certain that you have the best offer on the table do you accept. While not novel, it involves "playing with fire" to a large degree. There seems to be a realistic possibility here that two of Boras' clients may have agreements nullified by this strategy.
Other than capitulating to a $12M demand, I don't see a whole lot more that NH and/or FC could have done.

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 Post subject: Re: What is going on with Alvarez?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:21 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:

I guess I'm still missing where Boras has found a "loophole." Or, in the alternative, maybe you and I aren't seeing "eye to eye" on what exactly is a loophole.

Given the nature of the grievance, there are two potential outcomes: (1) the contract is valid; (2) the contract is not valid. It appears that the only way that the contract is deemed invalid is if the deadline passed without a viable extension. Alvarez agreed to the deal. The Pirates agreed to the deal. This is called mutual assent. If the contract is voided, then both Alvarez' desire and the Pirates' desire is circumvented. This is not a situation where someone takes advantage of a situation to get what they want. It is not as if Alvarez is taking advantage of a loophole to force a contract upon the Pirates or the Pirates taking advantage of a loophole to force a contract upon Alvarez. They both agreed to a $6M guaranteed signing bonus.

In my eyes, "loopholes" are gaps in contracts which fail to address a situation which ultimately arises. As a practicing attorney who has drafted a few contracts in my career, attorneys try to contemplate what situations might ultimately arise. Here, there is no "loophole." Either the contract was timely or it was not. If it is deemed to be untimely and a material breach, the agreement will be found void. That's not what I deem to be a "loophole." In legal parlance, that is what is called a condition precedent to enforceability of an agreement.

Just my $.02.


Oh great. After a long day at the office, I get to come home and read "legalese". No.9, thank you for the trip down contract law memory lane and I couldn't agree with you more. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: What is going on with Alvarez?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:30 pm 
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I concur with No. 9, J. :D

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 Post subject: Re: What is going on with Alvarez?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:50 pm 
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nad69dan wrote:
bullishhitter wrote:
Ralphie wrote:
I don't want him either. You either make a deal or you don't. Don't give me any of this wishy-washy games-playing bullshit. Hit the road and good luck next year kid.


The irony in all of this ......if this is not solved and he goes back to school next year, he may be there for the Pirates to draft. Are you going to pass(assuming he looks to be just as talented as now)the best player available like they have done in years past?


You do when you have 2 of 3 top draft picks and you dont know who is going to come out of the draft next season...There may be a stud blossoming next season just waiting to get drafted in the top 5


Dan:

The rules stipulate that if a team and player do not agree to terms and he re-enters the draft, that team may not select that player the following year. Hence, we cannot get Scheppers next year. If Alvarez goes back, the same will be true for him. Alas, it won't be up to the Pirates whether to pass or pick him.


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 Post subject: Re: What is going on with Alvarez?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:58 pm 
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That was BH who said about drafting him again next season, i tried stating (poorly at the time) that with 2 draft picks in the top 5 next year, and a better draft class that is supposed to be coming out that he might be the best player and will probably wont be getting drafted in the top 5....

plus you have to think if he goes back into the draft, other teams are going to be cautious to draft him...

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I say keep the $50 and ban him anyway...

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 Post subject: Re: What is going on with Alvarez?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:04 pm 
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Because I am not an attorney, I re-read some of these posts several times. I very much appreciate the sharing of contract knowledge by everyone, especially No.9. I found it very interesting.

Really the bottom line is as I thought and we will have to wait for the arbitrator's decision.

I too am very distressed by this turn of events. I think it was after midnight because the Pirates don't deny it. Did the league have the right to extend the time line? Probably not without the players ass. approval. So, it probably makes our deal and the KC deal invalid. If that's the case, both players will be returned to next years draft. And if correct, we will not qualify to re-draft Alvarez next June.

It is such a pile of shit. Baseball is a complete mess. Why do I care? Why do any of us care?

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 Post subject: Re: What is going on with Alvarez?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:14 pm 
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Substitute2 wrote:
Probably not without the players ass. approval.



You have no clue how confused I was by this statement. I must have read it 5 times before I saw the period and realized you were abbreviating association.

It was calling to mind a scene from Ace Ventura... :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: What is going on with Alvarez?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:25 pm 
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Sorry, and again you made me drop my coke with laughter.

Some players are...

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THIS IS IT-- NO MORE STREAK!!! *** Finally*** Time to win it in 2014


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