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 Post subject: Re: How can you root for a team that dissapoints
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 9:17 am 
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And what evidence do you have that the team has actually quit? You think the team wants to lose? You think the team does not care about winning? If so, where is your evidence? If your only evidence is their record of late, I've got news for you: that has little to do with their desire to win and everything to do with their ability to win. So please, spare us the diatribe on the team's "heart."

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 Post subject: Re: How can you root for a team that dissapoints
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 9:49 am 
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Willton wrote:
And what evidence do you have that the team has actually quit? You think the team wants to lose? You think the team does not care about winning? If so, where is your evidence? If your only evidence is their record of late, I've got news for you: that has little to do with their desire to win and everything to do with their ability to win. So please, spare us the diatribe on the team's "heart."


Very good post Wilton, my sentiments exactly.


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 Post subject: Re: How can you root for a team that dissapoints
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:01 am 
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I have no idea about the players, but over the years ownership has quit on the fans. For that matter the players too.
How would you feel if you were a vet and watch the team run the way it is. Sure they get paid but it has to bother them. If you think ownership has made the best effort to put a championship team together, you are just flat out naive.

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 Post subject: Re: How can you root for a team that dissapoints
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:43 am 
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bullishhitter wrote:
I have no idea about the players, but over the years ownership has quit on the fans. For that matter the players too.
How would you feel if you were a vet and watch the team run the way it is. Sure they get paid but it has to bother them. If you think ownership has made the best effort to put a championship team together, you are just flat out naive.



Your point would be valid if McClatchy and Littlefield were still at the helm and the team was still in that cycle of incompetence. What you need to see is that things are very different now. The organization has a plan that they are systematically walking through week to week. Sure NH gave a few guys from Littlefields tenure a shot, they failed, now they're gone. You have to respect that. Nutting shelled out 9.5M dollars for the draft, 5M for a state of the art facilty down in the DR, and has committed money to players thet before this season started, actually deserved it. The fans can't quit on the Pirates.

You say Nutting hasn't made his best effort to put a championship team together, why? Because he didn't get AROD? What exactly could he have done to make his best effort? Your forgetting that premier free agents do not want to come to Pittsburgh yet because there is no foundation for winning. Coonelly, Huntington, and the rest of the management team understands that they must build a winning foundation from within before premier free agents will select Pittsburgh over another city. Additionally, premier free agents should be the LAST piece to a championship caliber team, not the first. Nutting has stated publicly that WHEN that foundation has been established and is in the position to make the run, then money is not going to be a problem. When we get to that spot and he doesn't deliver on his promise, BH, I am going to be leading the charge against ownership.

Nutting authorized paying Alvarez 6M dollars without knowing if he could ever make it in the pros. I think that is making a commiment to building a winning organization.

Don't give me no bs about what Nutting supposedly did last year for the draft, don't give me the same old bs line that we needed to get quality free agents before the season, and please don't insult me by saying that Nady and Bay if kept were going to be the center of a team contending. You tell me EXACTLY what you think ownership could have done to make us a championship caliber team.

Let me tell you what I think, I think that you've taken this arguement so far that if you actually complimented ownership for doing anything good, you'd lose your credibility, dude, get over it, your credibility is completely shot. Or, you enjoy bashing on the Pirates so much, that when they actually do start winning you'll be upset because moments of levity may actually cause you pain.


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 Post subject: Re: How can you root for a team that dissapoints
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 11:22 am 
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Piratefan13 wrote:
Your point would be valid if McClatchy and Littlefield were still at the helm and the team was still in that cycle of incompetence The fans can't quit on the Pirates.
You say Nutting hasn't made his best effort to put a championship team together, why?
What exactly could he have done to make his best effort? Your forgetting that premier free agents do not want to come to Pittsburgh yet because there is no foundation for winning. .


Look at the standings...they are in "Here we go Steelers form"...losers and meaningless games..as usual in the cycle of incompetence. The fans sure can quit the team...too bad not enough have to send ownership the message. Even though Bob Nutting is the face man now, his family's money has been in control for 12 years. Its why safe signable picks for the draft were made. So this year they spend there(draft)and trade proven productive vets who would cost alot more to retain in a year.(Follow the money)
So what could they do. Keep and sign the proven vets and draft the so called best and more costly players. But that cuts into their sure fire profits. Look at the message they have sent to the rest of the team...if you produce and you are near the end of your contract...you're gone. And that fine. They want that profit. Well if you are a fan and want a winner, odds are stacked againt that from happening. You keep supporting how they do things just like you have the last 16 years. You're going to support them no matter what...you cant walk away.

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 Post subject: Re: How can you root for a team that dissapoints
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 1:56 pm 
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Once again, He-who-has-shit-in-his-name evinces his lack of vision.

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 Post subject: Re: How can you root for a team that dissapoints
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:42 pm 
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Quote:
You tell me EXACTLY what you think ownership could have done to make us a championship caliber team


Again BH, you keep avoiding the question. THIS is the question I want you to answer!!


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 Post subject: Re: How can you root for a team that dissapoints
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 7:05 pm 
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omgardd wrote:
BTW, I'm all for building a team the right way, I'm realistic that we have to build a team through the draft and invest in young players here in Pittsburgh and that it will take time, however it is so dishearting to watch this team absolutely QUIT in August. And these are the players I'm supposed to believe will carry us in 2 or 3 years? No excuse whatsoever.

i don't understand how you can say they quit. they are getting beat by better teams because they are bad right now.


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 Post subject: Re: How can you root for a team that dissapoints
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 7:09 pm 
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bullishhitter wrote:
Piratefan13 wrote:
Your point would be valid if McClatchy and Littlefield were still at the helm and the team was still in that cycle of incompetence The fans can't quit on the Pirates.
You say Nutting hasn't made his best effort to put a championship team together, why?
What exactly could he have done to make his best effort? Your forgetting that premier free agents do not want to come to Pittsburgh yet because there is no foundation for winning. .


Look at the standings...they are in "Here we go Steelers form"...losers and meaningless games..as usual in the cycle of incompetence. The fans sure can quit the team...too bad not enough have to send ownership the message. Even though Bob Nutting is the face man now, his family's money has been in control for 12 years. Its why safe signable picks for the draft were made. So this year they spend there(draft)and trade proven productive vets who would cost alot more to retain in a year.(Follow the money)
So what could they do. Keep and sign the proven vets and draft the so called best and more costly players. But that cuts into their sure fire profits. Look at the message they have sent to the rest of the team...if you produce and you are near the end of your contract...you're gone. And that fine. They want that profit. Well if you are a fan and want a winner, odds are stacked againt that from happening. You keep supporting how they do things just like you have the last 16 years. You're going to support them no matter what...you cant walk away.


dude, quit talking about the steelers. you are why i openly root against that team as a life long pittsburgher. also, one can still support the team without "enabling" them. i haven't gone to a game in years. i don't own any pirates memorabilia, etc. the radio is free. and last i looked posting on this board isn't the same as dropping 45 bucks down at PNC.


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 Post subject: Re: How can you root for a team that dissapoints
PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 10:49 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
Winning 80 games a year is a much more interesting team possible contending then a team that loses all the time. Why watch them? They are losing 10-1 to the cubs.


Winning 80 games a year is losing, and if you contend with 80 wins it's because the rest of the division is filled with bigger losers than you are.

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Brandon moss and andy laroche havent looked like good hitters at all.


I wasn't aware that you had such great scouting skills that you could evaluate players based on less than 100 at bats. Congratulations. Question: how do Moss and LaRoche rate against Paul Maholm on the suckitude meter?

Quote:
Fans dont need a team that wins ALL the time. BUT it is good to have a team that is consistently in contention and provides some excitement. This pirates team is just frusterating to watch basesloaded in key moments with no outs they dont score. And as i said current score is they are losing to the cubs 10-1.


The Pirates are closer to the day when they will contend since the July trades. I agree that they are a frustrating team to watch. Just focus on the big picture.

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They have been the laughing stock of the league and the city of pittsburgh.
And why be a "fan" when all you get out of the game is fireworks and bobbleheads?

I'm a fan because I love baseball. There is always a chance that you will see something happen at a game that you have never seen before. It's happened to me several times this year. I avoid going to games when there are fireworks or popular giveaways.

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 Post subject: Re: How can you root for a team that dissapoints
PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 10:52 pm 
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bullishhitter wrote:
Piratefan13 wrote:
The real "sham" is this stance your taking about what you think Nutting is like, or what you think he intends to do. You don't know him personaly, and if you do, its obvious that you aren't his friend, and he certainly doesn't need to explain to you every finite detail of the organizational plan. So why the hard-on for him? Did he "sham" you in some way? Its obvious you cannot be so upset because of what you perceived he has done to the team because you really don't even care or like the team enough to follow them. Or is it you that's the sham?

I've tried to converse with you logically, but you don't really have any basis for what you are saying, no proof, only speculation.

So as Nucleus would say "Sham"-on it. Or Michael Jackson... "Sham"-on :D

I dont know Nutting or his family. What I do know is he and his family's money have been the main influence on how the team has been run since 1996. I have no problem with them making money. Have a good product or service worth buying and make your money. Stay loyal during down periods...as long as you can see the effort to improve. 16 years and counting and a bad product with hand outs to boot is a sham.Thats the proof. You see improvement..I see the cycle repeating. Like you I am a fan who has supported the team since childhood. That does not mean you or me should support them no matter what. Emotions blind your logic.

Hatred blinds yours.

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 Post subject: Re: How can you root for a team that dissapoints
PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 11:23 pm 
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You all are way to optimistic on the pirates. :roll:
Years and years and years its always the same thing. They wont win next year and most likely not the year after why continue to go to games where they get shelled and hits are scarce?

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 Post subject: Re: How can you root for a team that dissapoints
PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 9:36 am 
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Ryann wrote:
You all are way to optimistic on the pirates. :roll:
Years and years and years its always the same thing. They wont win next year and most likely not the year after why continue to go to games where they get shelled and hits are scarce?

You're right, they almost certainly will not win next year or the year after. I already told you why I'll still go to games: because I love baseball. I'm not one of those fans who believes that the size of his package is directly related to the won/lost record of the home team.

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 Post subject: Re: How can you root for a team that dissapoints
PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 10:19 am 
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I watch the buccos, and will continue to do so, because I love them, always have, and always will.

I am also one who believes, honestly, that Nutting's motives are pure, and that he will honestly try to build a winner in Pittsburgh, the way the fans on this board want him to.

However, the simple fact is that when Bay and Nady left, it sucked the life, fight and spirit right out of this team. You cannot look at the record since the trade and make a good argument otherwise.

The simple fact, too, is that Pittsburgh is not an attractive place to play for the "can't miss" draft picks, or good free agents. It has the reputation of the Arizona Cardinals of football, well earned after sixteen years. It also has the reputation of a football town, as soon as the Steelers begin camp the Pirates are relagated to the back pages of the paper.

Will Nutting and NH succeed? I hope so, but I am not optimistic. While others saw the "trades" as part of the future, I saw it as more of the same. Maybe the motives were different this time, but the end result, I fear, will be no different.

Personally, I don't expect much different over the next several years. But, I'll still watch, I'll still become frustrated, and still be a bucco fan. I guess I just a masochist.


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 Post subject: Re: How can you root for a team that dissapoints
PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 10:19 am 
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I watch the buccos, and will continue to do so, because I love them, always have, and always will.

I am also one who believes, honestly, that Nutting's motives are pure, and that he will honestly try to build a winner in Pittsburgh, the way the fans on this board want him to.

However, the simple fact is that when Bay and Nady left, it sucked the life, fight and spirit right out of this team. You cannot look at the record since the trade and make a good argument otherwise.

The simple fact, too, is that Pittsburgh is not an attractive place to play for the "can't miss" draft picks, or good free agents. It has the reputation of the Arizona Cardinals of football, well earned after sixteen years. It also has the reputation of a football town, as soon as the Steelers begin camp the Pirates are relagated to the back pages of the paper.

Will Nutting and NH succeed? I hope so, but I am not optimistic. While others saw the "trades" as part of the future, I saw it as more of the same. Maybe the motives were different this time, but the end result, I fear, will be no different.

Personally, I don't expect much different over the next several years. But, I'll still watch, I'll still become frustrated, and still be a bucco fan. I guess I just a masochist.


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 Post subject: Re: How can you root for a team that dissapoints
PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 10:19 am 
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I watch the buccos, and will continue to do so, because I love them, always have, and always will.

I am also one who believes, honestly, that Nutting's motives are pure, and that he will honestly try to build a winner in Pittsburgh, the way the fans on this board want him to.

However, the simple fact is that when Bay and Nady left, it sucked the life, fight and spirit right out of this team. You cannot look at the record since the trade and make a good argument otherwise.

The simple fact, too, is that Pittsburgh is not an attractive place to play for the "can't miss" draft picks, or good free agents. It has the reputation of the Arizona Cardinals of football, well earned after sixteen years. It also has the reputation of a football town, as soon as the Steelers begin camp the Pirates are relagated to the back pages of the paper.

Will Nutting and NH succeed? I hope so, but I am not optimistic. While others saw the "trades" as part of the future, I saw it as more of the same. Maybe the motives were different this time, but the end result, I fear, will be no different.

Personally, I don't expect much different over the next several years. But, I'll still watch, I'll still become frustrated, and still be a bucco fan. I guess I just a masochist.


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 Post subject: Re: How can you root for a team that dissapoints
PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 11:25 am 
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Ryann wrote:
You all are way to optimistic on the pirates. :roll:
Years and years and years its always the same thing. They wont win next year and most likely not the year after why continue to go to games where they get shelled and hits are scarce?

No one is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to watch the games. If you don't want to watch, don't watch.

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 Post subject: Re: How can you root for a team that dissapoints
PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 1:49 pm 
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Steve1118 wrote:
I watch the buccos, and will continue to do so, because I love them, always have, and always will.

I am also one who believes, honestly, that Nutting's motives are pure, and that he will honestly try to build a winner in Pittsburgh, the way the fans on this board want him to.

However, the simple fact is that when Bay and Nady left, it sucked the life, fight and spirit right out of this team. You cannot look at the record since the trade and make a good argument otherwise.

Sure you can, and it isn't hard. Trading Bay and Nady didn't suck anything out of the team except talent. I watch the games and I still see players diving for balls, running out routine grounders, and otherwise give their all. They simply aren't good enough to win.

Quote:
The simple fact, too, is that Pittsburgh is not an attractive place to play for the "can't miss" draft picks, or good free agents. It has the reputation of the Arizona Cardinals of football, well earned after sixteen years. It also has the reputation of a football town, as soon as the Steelers begin camp the Pirates are relagated to the back pages of the paper.

Yes, that's why we keep reading about players wanting to play out there careers here, such as Bay, Giles, Wilson, etc.

Quote:
Will Nutting and NH succeed? I hope so, but I am not optimistic. While others saw the "trades" as part of the future, I saw it as more of the same. Maybe the motives were different this time, but the end result, I fear, will be no different.

Based on what?

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 Post subject: Re: How can you root for a team that dissapoints
PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 2:05 pm 
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1. I disagree.....the feistiness left when Bay and Nady did.

2. Of course, Bay, Wilson and others want to stay here. It is a great city, with great people, and a great community to be a part of and to raise a family in. No argument, there. But, those guys are Pittsburghers. You have to be here to see that. Pittsburgh, to those on the outside looking in, is the hinterland.

3. Based on sixteen years of losing baseball. Watching trade after trade for young "studs".

Like I say, I hope I'm wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: How can you root for a team that dissapoints
PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 2:52 pm 
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Steve1118 wrote:
3. Based on sixteen years of losing baseball. Watching trade after trade for young "studs".


Jody Gerut, Armando Rios, Matt Lawton, Shawn Chacon, Matt Morris, Jose Hernandez, and Bobby Hill were young studs...

Was there at anytime besides the Giles for Bay-Perez deal that the Pirates traded for someone who was a legit prospect or up and coming player?

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