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 Post subject: Re: How can you root for a team that dissapoints
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 11:10 am 
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Piratefan13 wrote:
[

I've tried to converse with you logically, but you don't really have any basis for what you are saying, no proof, only speculation.



Welcome to the club, PF13.


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 Post subject: Re: How can you root for a team that dissapoints
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:05 pm 
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Piratefan13 wrote:
The real "sham" is this stance your taking about what you think Nutting is like, or what you think he intends to do. You don't know him personaly, and if you do, its obvious that you aren't his friend, and he certainly doesn't need to explain to you every finite detail of the organizational plan. So why the hard-on for him? Did he "sham" you in some way? Its obvious you cannot be so upset because of what you perceived he has done to the team because you really don't even care or like the team enough to follow them. Or is it you that's the sham?

I've tried to converse with you logically, but you don't really have any basis for what you are saying, no proof, only speculation.

So as Nucleus would say "Sham"-on it. Or Michael Jackson... "Sham"-on :D

I dont know Nutting or his family. What I do know is he and his family's money have been the main influence on how the team has been run since 1996. I have no problem with them making money. Have a good product or service worth buying and make your money. Stay loyal during down periods...as long as you can see the effort to improve. 16 years and counting and a bad product with hand outs to boot is a sham.Thats the proof. You see improvement..I see the cycle repeating. Like you I am a fan who has supported the team since childhood. That does not mean you or me should support them no matter what. Emotions blind your logic.

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 Post subject: Re: How can you root for a team that dissapoints
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 2:31 pm 
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Maybe they decided that if they put a winner on the field, they will put more fannies in the seats which will result in a bigger profit. Maybe it is that West Virginia factor? Also known as the western New York factor. We might be a little slow at first, but eventually come around.


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 Post subject: Re: How can you root for a team that dissapoints
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 2:46 pm 
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Az Bucco fan wrote:
Maybe they decided that if they put a winner on the field, they will put more fannies in the seats which will result in a bigger profit. Maybe it is that West Virginia factor? Also known as the western New York factor. We might be a little slow at first, but eventually come around.

But there is a risk involved. Right now, they have their 15-20 million profit locked up with their low payroll(going lower).
They are rewarded for a bad product. They're not held accountable by the fans or MLB.
Winning(with exceptions)costs more money. They wont risk it. If they are going to win, they are going to do it with a low budget...odds are stacked against them, yet losing has the odds stacked for them to profit.

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 Post subject: Re: How can you root for a team that dissapoints
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 3:09 pm 
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Tampa Bay has a $25 million dollar profit and a payroll in line with the Pirates. Why aren't they being accused of "pocketing" money?


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 Post subject: Re: How can you root for a team that dissapoints
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 4:07 pm 
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Argentum wrote:
Tampa Bay has a $25 million dollar profit and a payroll in line with the Pirates. Why aren't they being accused of "pocketing" money?


Cause they are giving back the fans great baseball and a very good competitive team.

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 Post subject: Re: How can you root for a team that dissapoints
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 4:42 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
Argentum wrote:
Tampa Bay has a $25 million dollar profit and a payroll in line with the Pirates. Why aren't they being accused of "pocketing" money?


Cause they are giving back the fans great baseball and a very good competitive team.


For the first time in their existence... And how did they get to the point of playing great baseball with a very competitve team? Not by shelling out millions of dollars to free agents, but by building from within. Kinda catchy aint it?


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 Post subject: Re: How can you root for a team that dissapoints
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 4:59 pm 
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Piratefan13 wrote:
Not by shelling out millions of dollars to free agents, but by building from within. Kinda catchy aint it?


We have a winner!


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 Post subject: Re: How can you root for a team that dissapoints
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 5:41 pm 
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Piratefan13 wrote:
Ryann wrote:
Argentum wrote:
Tampa Bay has a $25 million dollar profit and a payroll in line with the Pirates. Why aren't they being accused of "pocketing" money?


Cause they are giving back the fans great baseball and a very good competitive team.


For the first time in their existence... And how did they get to the point of playing great baseball with a very competitve team? Not by shelling out millions of dollars to free agents, but by building from within. Kinda catchy aint it?

For examples of what happens when one does shell out lots of money to free agents in hopes of competing, see the Seattle Mariners and Baltimore Orioles of the past 5 years, and the Tampa Bay Devil Rays (as they were called back then) back in the late 90's/early 2000's when they had Jose Canseco, Greg Vaughn, Fred McGriff, Vinny Castilla, Juan Guzman, Roberto Hernandez (yes, that Roberto Hernandez) and Wilson Alvarez.

I think that experience caused Tampa to learn something: costly free agents will not dig you out of a hole. It's too bad that it toook this long for the Pirates to figure that out, and it's even sadder that many Pirate fans, including some on this board (you know who you are), still haven't figured that out.

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 Post subject: Re: How can you root for a team that dissapoints
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 6:25 pm 
I think PRIMARILY building your team from with young prospects is the way to go, but I would never rule out signing a free agent if he is a good fit. I think a good GM exploits every possible way of acquiring/developing talent. Ignoring free agency because of some bad moves made by other teams would be foolish.


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 Post subject: Re: How can you root for a team that dissapoints
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 6:28 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
I think PRIMARILY building your team from with young prospects is the way to go, but I would never rule out signing a free agent if he is a good fit. I think a good GM exploits every possible way of acquiring/developing talent. Ignoring free agency because of some bad moves made by other teams would be foolish.


If I remember correctly, that wasn't your stance during the offseason

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 Post subject: Re: How can you root for a team that dissapoints
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:42 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
I think PRIMARILY building your team from with young prospects is the way to go, but I would never rule out signing a free agent if he is a good fit. I think a good GM exploits every possible way of acquiring/developing talent. Ignoring free agency because of some bad moves made by other teams would be foolish.


CC Sabathia makes some sense for the 2008 Brewers, he makes absolutely no sense for the 2008 Pirates.


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 Post subject: Re: How can you root for a team that dissapoints
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 11:27 pm 
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im completely against signing any big name free agents. i want this team to run like the a's do. good drafting and when kids turn into productive players then trade them at the highest value before they hit free agency (ie blanton, harren, etc) the haul you get in trades when you trade guys like that with org. control coupled with good drafting can only ensure your org is competitive for the long haul. if i was NH i'd be shopping maholm and mclouth this off season to see what offers are out there.


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 Post subject: Re: How can you root for a team that dissapoints
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 11:29 pm 
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You say drafting is the way to go then why do they draft moskos ahead of weiters. The management of the past was retarded making the team a total wasteland for the coming years. Then heres more dissapointment craig hanson walks walks walks all these guys he faces so now they are losing isnt that great?

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 Post subject: Re: How can you root for a team that dissapoints
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 11:35 pm 
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The Weiters-Moskos draft has no bearing at all on Neal Huntington except he's stuck with a first round lefty relief pitcher who didnt do well at A ball...

Hanson came in with Grabow walking guys, he didnt walk them all...

Ryann, relax a little, its frustrating but this team is building for the future...its gonna take time...

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 Post subject: Re: How can you root for a team that dissapoints
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 11:42 pm 
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im fine with the losing. did you think this team is really going to compete this year or next? if you thought we were gil meche or carlos silva away from winning (two illustrious free agent signings of the last couple years) then you are nuts.

i don't care about what happened for the "last 16 years" either. i think its completely overblown anyway. we are way to fixated on it. it took 7 years or so for last years small market darling, the rockies, to build their world series contender. they made their big market signings, neagle, helton and they've regretted it ever since... its the studs they drafted that came thru their system halladay, tulowitski, etc that put them over the hump.

for the bucs it's going to take several more drafts to fix this mess, so just get used to it. period. i don't give a sh!t about what littlefield did, because last i looked... he wasn't the GM anymore. dude, we didn't draft weiters, so get over it. im so sick over everyone's wining and bitching about the pirates. if they would have signed bay and nady to two contracts worth 15 mil a year for the next 6 years do you really think they would have a winning season? probably not. we'd all be bitching about now we have a losing team were two guys are sucking up the whole pay roll and now they can't sign anyone else like we did when they signed "one of their own" jason kendall back in 2000. so, we'd be watching a team could mash the ball running JVB or Hererra or Duke out there every 5th day to pitch and giving up 8 runs a game basically this years edition of the pirates. whats the point? i don't care about players retiring as pirates or staying here for the entirety of their careers either. they are commodities to be bought and sold on the open market.


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 Post subject: Re: How can you root for a team that dissapoints
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 12:04 am 
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yeahimajerk wrote:
im fine with the losing. did you think this team is really going to compete this year or next? if you thought we were gil meche or carlos silva away from winning (two illustrious free agent signings of the last couple years) then you are nuts.

i don't care about what happened for the "last 16 years" either. i think its completely overblown anyway. we are way to fixated on it. it took 7 years or so for last years small market darling, the rockies, to build their world series contender. they made their big market signings, neagle, helton and they've regretted it ever since... its the studs they drafted that came thru their system halladay, tulowitski, etc that put them over the hump.

for the bucs it's going to take several more drafts to fix this mess, so just get used to it. period. i don't give a sh!t about what littlefield did, because last i looked... he wasn't the GM anymore. dude, we didn't draft weiters, so get over it. im so sick over everyone's wining and bitching about the pirates. if they would have signed bay and nady to two contracts worth 15 mil a year for the next 6 years do you really think they would have a winning season? probably not. we'd all be bitching about now we have a losing team were two guys are sucking up the whole pay roll and now they can't sign anyone else like we did when they signed "one of their own" jason kendall back in 2000. so, we'd be watching a team could mash the ball running JVB or Hererra or Duke out there every 5th day to pitch and giving up 8 runs a game basically this years edition of the pirates. whats the point? i don't care about players retiring as pirates or staying here for the entirety of their careers either. they are commodities to be bought and sold on the open market.


So you like watching this baseball the last month? The previous gm is very important and you should "give a shit" about it its the reason why this team is a total wreck.

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 Post subject: Re: How can you root for a team that dissapoints
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 12:40 am 
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Ryann wrote:
So you like watching this baseball the last month? The previous gm is very important and you should "give a shit" about it its the reason why this team is a total wreck.

And what do you propose we do about it?

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 Post subject: Re: How can you root for a team that dissapoints
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 1:24 am 
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All that optimism that everybody had last week, including myself, after the Alvarez signing has quickly worn off when its apparent that this team has basically quit. Swept by the Brewers, about to be swept by the Cubs, lose 3 of 4 to the Mets 2 of 3 to the Phillies, 2 of 3 to the stinking Reds. They have no heart. Nice job guys, can't wait for next year.

Thank god its Steeler season.

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 Post subject: Re: How can you root for a team that dissapoints
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 1:31 am 
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BTW, I'm all for building a team the right way, I'm realistic that we have to build a team through the draft and invest in young players here in Pittsburgh and that it will take time, however it is so dishearting to watch this team absolutely QUIT in August. And these are the players I'm supposed to believe will carry us in 2 or 3 years? No excuse whatsoever.

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