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 Post subject: Re: bullishhitter comments
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 5:23 pm 
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Willton wrote:
1. On who should we spend money?
2. What amount of money should we spend?
3. When should we spend that amount of money?
4. And finally, why should we do so?

Answered in turn:
1. We should spend money on players that are talented and will be valuable to the team for the life of the entire contract.
2. We should pay those players an amount that is not more than what they are worth to the team.
3. We should spend that money when we have enough talent that allows the team to contend for the playoffs.
4. We should do so for the purpose of reaching the playoffs, not just to win one more game.


1 Agree
2 Worth to the team? Thats like trying to sell your house what you think its worth. but the market determines the value, not you.
3 Contend for playoffs or a championship? Had the Pirates been in the NL West before the trade, they would have been contenders, but not for a WS championship.
4 See #3

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 Post subject: Re: bullishhitter comments
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 6:12 pm 
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bullishhitter wrote:
2 Worth to the team? Thats like trying to sell your house what you think its worth. but the market determines the value, not you.

The market does not determine how many wins a player will produce above replacement level. If the market overvalues a certain player, then that is a player to avoid.

bullishhitter wrote:
3 Contend for playoffs or a championship? Had the Pirates been in the NL West before the trade, they would have been contenders, but not for a WS championship.
4 See #3

The Pirates are not in the NL West, so whether they would contend in that division is irrelevant.

I say contend for the playoffs because once you get to the playoffs, anything can happen. See the 2003 Florida Marlins, the 2004 Boston Red Sox, the 2006 St. Louis Cardinals, and the 2007 Colorado Rockies.

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 Post subject: Re: bullishhitter comments
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:35 pm 
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Willton wrote:
I say contend for the playoffs because once you get to the playoffs, anything can happen. See the 2003 Florida Marlins, the 2004 Boston Red Sox, the 2006 St. Louis Cardinals, and the 2007 Colorado Rockies.

Hopefully we're not anything like the 2007 Rockies, or else the entire baseball world will blame us for the worst World Series in history.


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 Post subject: Re: bullishhitter comments
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:56 pm 
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yeknom02 wrote:
Willton wrote:
I say contend for the playoffs because once you get to the playoffs, anything can happen. See the 2003 Florida Marlins, the 2004 Boston Red Sox, the 2006 St. Louis Cardinals, and the 2007 Colorado Rockies.

Hopefully we're not anything like the 2007 Rockies, or else the entire baseball world will blame us for the worst World Series in history.


I'd love to see the Pirates lose the worst World Series in history. Think of the progress they'd have made...

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 Post subject: Re: bullishhitter comments
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 11:18 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
bullishhitter wrote:
Ownership pay market prices for their players worth keeping and building around? Fans are forever asked to buy into their next rebuilding plan. As for this year's draft...I too am at least encouraged that the new GM appears to have much more sense. But as good as the selections look on paper....don't yet count your chickens because young talent takes years to develop. I hope not and really don't expect to see most of these guys fail, but you could be sitting here with the 18th straight losing season in two years with a lot of these guys either gone or still playing in Altoona.

In the meantime, I'm not giving any attaboys to BN at this point. He just made financial room in his profit margins for signing this year's draft picks by jettisoning his real MLB players and their salaries. He had to sign most of his high profile draft picks this year or even the fireworks fans would have been discouraged. When BN starts signing his players who do blossom and can be built around to market prices...then he starts getting credibility with me. But until then...you can buy Baseball America magazine and start scouring all of the minor league stats to find the right guys the Pirates can acquire for any of the remaining talent left on the MLB club

So we come to it. Bullish doesn't care about winning. Bullish only cares about payroll size.

Did you get fired from a Nutting company or something?



Well then bullish has a right to be angry since they dont win and they dont have a good payroll size. They need to increase the payroll at some point to get young starts but mostly retain young stars.

You have to put in six years in the majors to qualify for free agency. "Young" free agent stars are rare exceptions, not the rule.

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 Post subject: Re: bullishhitter comments
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 11:58 pm 
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Steve1118 wrote:
I am in between on this one. I am not as cynical as bullish's attitude seems to be.....I honestly think that this new regime is serious about spending the money and turning things around. I really believe the motives are pure, and not another effort to decieve the fans.

However, I am not as euphoric as a lot on this board are regarding the trades of Nady and Bay for "prospects". In watching the Bucs - Cards tonight, I heard the Rock mention four or five "can't miss" guys who have not panned out as well as once thought. When the trades were made I heard comments like "Hansen's a stud", (he got lit up tonight), and this makes room for Pearce (he can't hit his way out of a paper bag). Maybe this will change, maybe it won't. It is not inconceiveable that Alvarez could be a bust (look how many Heisman winners never made it).

So the Bay trade was no good because Hansen, who was probably the third or fourth best guy we got in the deal, sucked in a game, Steve Pearce is no good because he's had 58 bad at bats, and Alvarez might turn out to be overrated as a running back.

Quote:
I still think they should have kept the club intact, and opened the wallet and signed some pitching help. At least then, they were fun to watch. Now, it's like watching paint dry. Now, we have the Pittsburgh Prospects, and could very easily have a perpetual AA or AAA ball club. There comes a point where you have to keep a team intact, and augment it, rather than keep rotating proven players for talent that may or may not make it.

Then you think that the Pirates should have spent somewhere between 40 and 80 million dollars a year, because they needed four good starting pitchers to be competitive. Since you pointed out that Alvarez isn't a sure thing, I'd like to counter with this list:

Barry Zito
Mike Hampton
Denny Neagle
Jeff Weaver
Adam Eaton
Carl Pavano
Russ Ortiz
Jason Schmidt
Chan Ho Park
Darren Dreifort
Wilson Alvarez

Free agent pitchers are no sure things, either, and they cost a hell of a lot more than any prospect.

Quote:
....I am rooting for them.....but they have to show me. I don't take these "prospects" and "can't miss" guys at their word. I'm tired of hearing about two or three years down the road. It's time to see results.

Then find a new team to root for, because the results are at least two or three years away.

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 Post subject: Re: bullishhitter comments
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 11:59 pm 
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bucco boy wrote:
Steve1118 wrote:
I am in between on this one. I am not as cynical as bullish's attitude seems to be.....I honestly think that this new regime is serious about spending the money and turning things around. I really believe the motives are pure, and not another effort to decieve the fans.

However, I am not as euphoric as a lot on this board are regarding the trades of Nady and Bay for "prospects". In watching the Bucs - Cards tonight, I heard the Rock mention four or five "can't miss" guys who have not panned out as well as once thought. When the trades were made I heard comments like "Hansen's a stud", (he got lit up tonight), and this makes room for Pearce (he can't hit his way out of a paper bag). Maybe this will change, maybe it won't. It is not inconceiveable that Alvarez could be a bust (look how many Heisman winners never made it).

I still think they should have kept the club intact, and opened the wallet and signed some pitching help. At least then, they were fun to watch. Now, it's like watching paint dry. Now, we have the Pittsburgh Prospects, and could very easily have a perpetual AA or AAA ball club. There comes a point where you have to keep a team intact, and augment it, rather than keep rotating proven players for talent that may or may not make it.

I guess we'll see.....I am rooting for them.....but they have to show me. I don't take these "prospects" and "can't miss" guys at their word. I'm tired of hearing about two or three years down the road. It's time to see results.


What if they kept Bay and Nady and then signed CC Sabathia and say an midlevel free agent like Odalis Perez? What do you think their record would have been in 2009?

81-81. Maybe.

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 Post subject: Re: bullishhitter comments
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 12:02 am 
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Pirates4real wrote:
I for one am not going to congratulate the management for what they did in the draft. They are definitely on the right track but just signing draft picks and making trades for prospects are not accomplishments in themselves. Anyone can do that but doing it well is a completely different thing and much more difficult. It reminds me of Pitt football, where the homer Pitt fans worship Wannstedt for landing great recruits even though the actual results on the field are horrendous.

You need to be a Yankee or Red Sox fan.

You expected Pitt to go to a bowl starting a bunch of freshmen and sophomores?

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What happens over the course of the next few years, if these young players actually develop and pan out into legitimate big leaguers, then and only then will I be willing to praise management for what they did. I repeat, just doing things that make obvious sense is not grounds for praise--only results will garner congratulations.

Nice of you to offer your services as a bandwagon jumper.

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 Post subject: Re: bullishhitter comments
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 12:03 am 
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bullishhitter wrote:
Willton wrote:
By the way, for those of you who think that Bay would have stayed in Pittsburgh after 2009, don't kid yourself. Free agent players always follow the money, and Bay would have gotten a lot of money from somebody (probably Boston).

And if any of the prospects turn into proven productive talent, they will do the same in due time. The key question is not who, or what, or when, but why. And you said it...follow the money. The money is the why. Money needed to keep proven vets will go to unproven prospects in hope enough will produce at the same or beter than those who were traded. When a player gets to the same juncture as Bay, they'll repeat the follow the money cycle. Who controls the money?...Nutting. What is the result? The same results for the last 16 years.

As I said, Bullish care only about payroll and how much profit Nutting puts in his pocket. Winning isn't important.

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 Post subject: Re: bullishhitter comments
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 12:05 am 
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nad69dan wrote:
Az Bucco fan wrote:
I would disagree that we have a terrible middle infield.


I believe he meant offensively...

I agree. Our middle infield is quite offensive.

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 Post subject: Re: bullishhitter comments
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 12:07 am 
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Elmer wrote:
LtCol Kojak Slaphead wrote:
Elmer wrote:
I agree with the trades, but what I don't like is the mentality that permeates a lot of this board that it's EITHER accumulate youth OR sign major league talent. You can do both. Other teams do it all the time ... The Pirates have some good, young talent, now let's supplement that with some ***smart*** free agent signings.

The bolded, above, has been the model for failure for the Baltimore Orioles for the past decade. Many Yankee fans will claim that it's no mere coincidence that they haven't won a World Series since they started signing or trading for stars rather than developing young, in-house talent — the template for their late 90s dynasty.

Wasting money on free agents during the early stages of a rebuild is pretty much the kiss of death for the endeavor. You stock your system, you develop your people, you see who succeeds and who fails, then you plug holes via free agency. It is quite literally the final piece of the puzzle. And — if the 08 Tampa Bay Rays be proof — perhaps an unnecessary one.

And if you think the Pirates will go into the 08 offseason at the same point of the curve as the 05 Tigers or 07 Rays ... I don't know what to tell you, other than to loosen the strap on your tinfoil helmet.


I think we disagree in that you assume we will, again, be in the "early stages of rebuilding" next year. Most people on the board seem to think thank 2010 as the year the Pirates have the best shot to compete.

Not me. That's the first year that they have any shot at competing, not the best.

Quote:
If that's the case, 2009 isn't the "early stages" of rebuilding, it's just one year away. So if the talent is good enough to compete in 2010, it MAY be ready to compete in 2009. I don't believe in assuming a year will be a losing one before the first pitch is thrown.

I agree that they shouldn't waste money on free agents. I don't consider signing good free agents who will help they win in 2009, 2010, 2011 wasting money. If they see a chance to improve the team, they should do it, imo.

Who should they sign, and how much should they offer?

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 Post subject: Re: bullishhitter comments
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 12:15 am 
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Elmer wrote:
I don't believe I said you were "required" to take a wait and see attitude. I think it's a wiser approach, and I certainly can't blame anyone who takes that approach, but I never said you were required to do anything.

From my end, the Morgan/McLouth comparison is different because neither player has sucked or been a stud for 16 years. After 16 years of losing -- during much of that time Nutting was involved -- I'm not ready to proclaim things "all better."

What baseball decisions was Nutting responsible for before he took over for McClatchy? Answer: you have no clue.

So you choose to base your projections of the Pirates future on the performance of completely different management teams in the past, while I choose to base mine on the current performance of the management team that is in charge right now, and you think that YOUR approach is "wiser"? LOLOLOLOL.

Quote:
I like some of what I've seen, but I want to see things continue. There's been way way way too much damage done to the organization to think that things are, all of a sudden, fine.

Also, I don't think player projection is the same thing as ownership projection. Apples and oranges.

Bullcrap.

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 Post subject: Re: bullishhitter comments
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 12:19 am 
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bullishhitter wrote:
Willton wrote:
1. On who should we spend money?
2. What amount of money should we spend?
3. When should we spend that amount of money?
4. And finally, why should we do so?

Answered in turn:
1. We should spend money on players that are talented and will be valuable to the team for the life of the entire contract.
2. We should pay those players an amount that is not more than what they are worth to the team.
3. We should spend that money when we have enough talent that allows the team to contend for the playoffs.
4. We should do so for the purpose of reaching the playoffs, not just to win one more game.


1 Agree
2 Worth to the team? Thats like trying to sell your house what you think its worth. but the market determines the value, not you.

You might want to try another analogy, because that one doesn't work at all.

Quote:
3 Contend for playoffs or a championship? Had the Pirates been in the NL West before the trade, they would have been contenders, but not for a WS championship.

Perhaps you haven't noticed that the Pirates are not in the NL West.

Quote:
4 See #3

Contending one time thanks to having the good fortune to play in a lousy division is not the goal. The goal is to contend
in most years regardless of your division.

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 Post subject: Re: bullishhitter comments
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 10:30 am 
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Sisyphus, you've been busy.

When I read the posts of the naysayers it reminds me a bit of the movie "Major League 2"(either that or Major League I can't remember), where Randy Quaid continued to whine about the team even when they were making progress, to the point where his buddies got sick of it. So what's this crap about me being a "coward fan," or "the kind of fan Nutting wants?" So since I am positive about our direction that makes me a coward? Thats the freakin dumbest thing I've ever heard.

What more does this fanbase want from management after taking over the wreck that was the PBC only late last year? A WS this year? And for those that think we could be doing better, how about EXPLAINING what YOU think we should have done, all you guys do is complain about it, and then get offended when one of us calls you on it, then you threaten to leave the board. Bye. This is definitely not a cheerleading board. I've had my disagreements with a few people on this board, Wilton, Elmer, ZM, and others, but all of them have been able to argue their points with references, ideas, and possible solutions. I can respect that. There are still problems with this team, they aren't the best in the league by a wide margin, but at least they are finally trying. Can't you give them any credit for that?

Most Pirate fans knew that even if we changed management, the damage was done, we were going to have to be patient. DL and McClatchy left this organization devoid of talent and in chaos. It will take time to repair the team, apparently its going to take time to mend the fences with some of the fanbase.


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 Post subject: Re: bullishhitter comments
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 2:22 pm 
Great post Piratefan13.

I agree that being positive is a good thing . . . in your hopes and rooting and things like that. For observations, though, I think it's important to be OBJECTIVE and keep emotions, like positivity or negativity, out of it. If not, you can't see things as they actually are.

I hope for the Pirates to win every game. When I am making my own personal evaluations about player moves, ownership decisions, etc., I try to be objective as possible.

Objectively, I like a lot of what NH and company have done. I like trading players who you will lose to free agency anyway. Objective, I love Jason Bay but love what we got in return more. Objectively, I'm only lukewarm on what we got back for Nady/Marte.

Objectively, I love the draft, the money commitment given to the draft, the Dominican Academy, etc. Objectively, I don't like that the team is still near last in payroll on the major league squad.

Objectively, I like that there is talk of spending even more in the future. Objectively, it's hard for me to totally believe it til I see it.

I get very annoyed with fans who praise everything the organization does when, clearly, there still are problems. I get just as annoyed with fans who slam the organization for everything it does when, clearly, they've done some great things recently.

That's just my take on "being positive" -- being positive in your rooting interests is outstanding. Being "positive" shouldn't be a factor in objectively evaluating moves. Just my 2 cents.


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 Post subject: Re: bullishhitter comments
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 7:00 pm 
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why are we talking about what BH has posted? i advocated his banishment from this board way before the board crashed, why has no one obliged??

lets ban this guy. because he is a troll. when a troll shows up on any other msg board, he gets banned.


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 Post subject: Re: bullishhitter comments
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:35 pm 
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yeahimajerk wrote:
why are we talking about what BH has posted? i advocated his banishment from this board way before the board crashed, why has no one obliged??

lets ban this guy. because he is a troll. when a troll shows up on any other msg board, he gets banned
.

Why? You failed
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 Post subject: Re: bullishhitter comments
PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:41 am 
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well, its not as if i lose any sleep over you BH. i just think your a sad person. for the life of me, i can't understand why you must insist on being such a 'effin troll. just leave us alone. if you don't like the pirates (which we know you clearly don't) and you are disgusted by them (which you clearly are) just don't bother to come here. its clear that if we are here posting then we are fans -sticking with the team through thick and thin.

i actually don't care the pirates are losers right now, i don't care about clinching a 16 years of losing. why? last i looked FC/NH weren't here in 1993. the lacroches were not manning 1st and 3rd in '97. im not going to judge this management group based on what littlefield and bonafy did. and please don't try to refute my argument about saying how BN wont raise payroll. if you follow baseball, which i know you don't, you'd know the marlins (2 ws titles) the twins, and a's (always competitive small market teams) have some of the cheapest owners in all of sports! you can still build a competitive team which a cheap ass owner. the brewers built their team from the core, made sure they were solid and then when the thought they were ready to make a run, as the illustrious mike keaton said, "they wrote the check." just be 'effin patient.

i still care about the bucs and take solace that when they do win (and i don't give a sh!t if we are the losing-est sports team in history in the meantime) it'll make my sticking with them all the sweeter. we know you don't really follow the team, so it seems to me the only reason you come here is to get your rocks off on those of us who follow the pirates. last i looked, I don't need to be lectured by you - someone who is no better than a 16 year old kid logging onto a message board to flame on other people because they think its funny. ive read your posts and you make yourself out to be some enlightened business man with a wife and children who looks down on us poor slobs. you know, if i was your son, i would be ashamed of my father logging on to an internet message board to troll do you really have nothing better to do with your life than this? what are you, in your 40s? and this is how you act? i took a year hiatus off of posting on this board (and reading it for the most part) and its still the same bullsh!t with you. you are a 'effin punk, my friend. i don't care how great you think you are or what you do for a living, you are just a miserable punk-ass m*therf*cker. i've met middle-schoolers that had more manners than you. period.


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 Post subject: Re: bullishhitter comments
PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 12:58 pm 
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I try not to get into the name calling business, but it is very tempting when there is a member who posts like Bull. Sometimes people just are not able to get along with others. It is impossible to know what went wrong with them, but the world is not a better place because of their attitude. They must enjoy being thought of the way Bull is thought of. We will never know why some people are like that because we are sane and logical and not filled with hate.

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 Post subject: Re: bullishhitter comments
PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 7:44 pm 
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Substitute2 wrote:
I try not to get into the name calling business, Sometimes people just are not able to get along with others. We will never know why some people are like that because we are sane and logical and not filled with hate.


Nobody name name calls in here. Some people are just not going to get along !

yeahimajerk wrote:
.... i just think your a sad person........ you are a 'effin punk, my friend. ..... you are just a miserable punk-ass m*therf*cker.


and since you do not want to read my posts, put me on ignore or do you just want to cuss and insult?

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