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 Post subject: Re: bullishhitter comments
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 10:55 pm 
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sisyphus wrote:
bullishhitter wrote:
Ownership pay market prices for their players worth keeping and building around? Fans are forever asked to buy into their next rebuilding plan. As for this year's draft...I too am at least encouraged that the new GM appears to have much more sense. But as good as the selections look on paper....don't yet count your chickens because young talent takes years to develop. I hope not and really don't expect to see most of these guys fail, but you could be sitting here with the 18th straight losing season in two years with a lot of these guys either gone or still playing in Altoona.

In the meantime, I'm not giving any attaboys to BN at this point. He just made financial room in his profit margins for signing this year's draft picks by jettisoning his real MLB players and their salaries. He had to sign most of his high profile draft picks this year or even the fireworks fans would have been discouraged. When BN starts signing his players who do blossom and can be built around to market prices...then he starts getting credibility with me. But until then...you can buy Baseball America magazine and start scouring all of the minor league stats to find the right guys the Pirates can acquire for any of the remaining talent left on the MLB club

So we come to it. Bullish doesn't care about winning. Bullish only cares about payroll size.

Did you get fired from a Nutting company or something?



Well then bullish has a right to be angry since they dont win and they dont have a good payroll size. They need to increase the payroll at some point to get young starts but mostly retain young stars.

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 Post subject: Re: bullishhitter comments
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 11:57 pm 
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I am in between on this one. I am not as cynical as bullish's attitude seems to be.....I honestly think that this new regime is serious about spending the money and turning things around. I really believe the motives are pure, and not another effort to decieve the fans.

However, I am not as euphoric as a lot on this board are regarding the trades of Nady and Bay for "prospects". In watching the Bucs - Cards tonight, I heard the Rock mention four or five "can't miss" guys who have not panned out as well as once thought. When the trades were made I heard comments like "Hansen's a stud", (he got lit up tonight), and this makes room for Pearce (he can't hit his way out of a paper bag). Maybe this will change, maybe it won't. It is not inconceiveable that Alvarez could be a bust (look how many Heisman winners never made it).

I still think they should have kept the club intact, and opened the wallet and signed some pitching help. At least then, they were fun to watch. Now, it's like watching paint dry. Now, we have the Pittsburgh Prospects, and could very easily have a perpetual AA or AAA ball club. There comes a point where you have to keep a team intact, and augment it, rather than keep rotating proven players for talent that may or may not make it.

I guess we'll see.....I am rooting for them.....but they have to show me. I don't take these "prospects" and "can't miss" guys at their word. I'm tired of hearing about two or three years down the road. It's time to see results.


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 Post subject: Re: bullishhitter comments
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:08 am 
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Steve1118 wrote:
I am in between on this one. I am not as cynical as bullish's attitude seems to be.....I honestly think that this new regime is serious about spending the money and turning things around. I really believe the motives are pure, and not another effort to decieve the fans.

However, I am not as euphoric as a lot on this board are regarding the trades of Nady and Bay for "prospects". In watching the Bucs - Cards tonight, I heard the Rock mention four or five "can't miss" guys who have not panned out as well as once thought. When the trades were made I heard comments like "Hansen's a stud", (he got lit up tonight), and this makes room for Pearce (he can't hit his way out of a paper bag). Maybe this will change, maybe it won't. It is not inconceiveable that Alvarez could be a bust (look how many Heisman winners never made it).

I still think they should have kept the club intact, and opened the wallet and signed some pitching help. At least then, they were fun to watch. Now, it's like watching paint dry. Now, we have the Pittsburgh Prospects, and could very easily have a perpetual AA or AAA ball club. There comes a point where you have to keep a team intact, and augment it, rather than keep rotating proven players for talent that may or may not make it.

I guess we'll see.....I am rooting for them.....but they have to show me. I don't take these "prospects" and "can't miss" guys at their word. I'm tired of hearing about two or three years down the road. It's time to see results.


What if they kept Bay and Nady and then signed CC Sabathia and say an midlevel free agent like Odalis Perez? What do you think their record would have been in 2009?

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 Post subject: Re: bullishhitter comments
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:34 am 
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bucco boy wrote:
Steve1118 wrote:
I am in between on this one. I am not as cynical as bullish's attitude seems to be.....I honestly think that this new regime is serious about spending the money and turning things around. I really believe the motives are pure, and not another effort to decieve the fans.

However, I am not as euphoric as a lot on this board are regarding the trades of Nady and Bay for "prospects". In watching the Bucs - Cards tonight, I heard the Rock mention four or five "can't miss" guys who have not panned out as well as once thought. When the trades were made I heard comments like "Hansen's a stud", (he got lit up tonight), and this makes room for Pearce (he can't hit his way out of a paper bag). Maybe this will change, maybe it won't. It is not inconceiveable that Alvarez could be a bust (look how many Heisman winners never made it).

I still think they should have kept the club intact, and opened the wallet and signed some pitching help. At least then, they were fun to watch. Now, it's like watching paint dry. Now, we have the Pittsburgh Prospects, and could very easily have a perpetual AA or AAA ball club. There comes a point where you have to keep a team intact, and augment it, rather than keep rotating proven players for talent that may or may not make it.

I guess we'll see.....I am rooting for them.....but they have to show me. I don't take these "prospects" and "can't miss" guys at their word. I'm tired of hearing about two or three years down the road. It's time to see results.


What if they kept Bay and Nady and then signed CC Sabathia and say an midlevel free agent like Odalis Perez? What do you think their record would have been in 2009?

Oooh! Ooooh! I know! Um, 82-80. Yay, the elusive .500 mark!

Then, next year, after Bay and Nady leave in free agency, then we'd only have to fill the LF, RF, 3B, 2B, and SS positions. That's no big deal! We still wouldn't reach the playoffs, but at least we wouldn't be on a losing streak anymore, and that's what matters, right? :roll:

[/sarcasm]

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 Post subject: Re: bullishhitter comments
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:37 am 
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By the way, for those of you who think that Bay would have stayed in Pittsburgh after 2009, don't kid yourself. Free agent players always follow the money, and Bay would have gotten a lot of money from somebody (probably Boston).

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 Post subject: Re: bullishhitter comments
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:09 am 
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Everyone keeps talking about 2009; 2010; and whatever.....while we are on our way to yet another 90 loss year.

This has been going on for sixteen years, now, while we keep waiting for "next year" for our "prospects" to mature. Altoona has had a very successful history with Pirate prospects, but that success has not translated to success on a major league level.

Look, it may work this time....there are some important signs that things are looking up. But, the point of the franchise is to win ball games on a major league level. On that point, the future is now.

I hope the new regime is genuine. I really, really, think they are. But, there comes a point where everyone gets tired of waiting. It's time.


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 Post subject: Re: bullishhitter comments
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:30 am 
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Its time to... what?

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: bullishhitter comments
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 12:08 pm 
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It's really pretty simple guys. The question that needs answered is: would we ever get to the play-offs or win with the guys we had? Answer is NO.

So, what should we do? Some think that the answer is to sign some FAs and our team would have been contenders. But that would be for one year, after which most of that core would have been gone to FA and we would be terrible and without even those guys.

The better course is what is happening. Build your minor leagues that were heretofore almost depleated so that you can bring up young guys who you control for many years and become competitive that way. Chances of staying competitive for a long time are enhanced by this method because you can continue to build your minor league teams and have a ready supply of new talent come forward as these guys leave for the big money.

That is simply the only logical way for a small market team to succeed. If baseball came to it's senses and divided the money equally, then all bets are off and we change strategies.

The sacrafice is that we lose guys we all liked and are less competitive while the kids develop. Yes, they are less fun to watch, but it can't be helped in order to correct our deficiet in talent.

So ther mantra must be PATIENCE, PATIENCE, PATIENCE.

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 Post subject: Re: bullishhitter comments
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 12:32 pm 
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I for one am not going to congratulate the management for what they did in the draft. They are definitely on the right track but just signing draft picks and making trades for prospects are not accomplishments in themselves. Anyone can do that but doing it well is a completely different thing and much more difficult. It reminds me of Pitt football, where the homer Pitt fans worship Wannstedt for landing great recruits even though the actual results on the field are horrendous.

What happens over the course of the next few years, if these young players actually develop and pan out into legitimate big leaguers, then and only then will I be willing to praise management for what they did. I repeat, just doing things that make obvious sense is not grounds for praise--only results will garner congratulations.


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 Post subject: Re: bullishhitter comments
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:43 pm 
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Willton wrote:
By the way, for those of you who think that Bay would have stayed in Pittsburgh after 2009, don't kid yourself. Free agent players always follow the money, and Bay would have gotten a lot of money from somebody (probably Boston).

And if any of the prospects turn into proven productive talent, they will do the same in due time. The key question is not who, or what, or when, but why. And you said it...follow the money. The money is the why. Money needed to keep proven vets will go to unproven prospects in hope enough will produce at the same or beter than those who were traded. When a player gets to the same juncture as Bay, they'll repeat the follow the money cycle. Who controls the money?...Nutting. What is the result? The same results for the last 16 years.

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 Post subject: Re: bullishhitter comments
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:47 pm 
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Plus, when you look at our rebuilding process, what is the best case scenario? Are we going on the hope that all of our young prospects, both pitchers and fielders, all come together and blossom at the same time, while they are still all under our control, to form a winning team? Because the odds of that happening are very long. Realistically, at some point we will have to supplement our home grown talent with some free agents and/or trades for established players. Not necessarily first tier but smart choices with good value that will contribute to our team if and when we are contenders.


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 Post subject: Re: bullishhitter comments
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:59 pm 
Pirates4real wrote:
Plus, when you look at our rebuilding process, what is the best case scenario? Are we going on the hope that all of our young prospects, both pitchers and fielders, all come together and blossom at the same time, while they are still all under our control, to form a winning team? Because the odds of that happening are very long. Realistically, at some point we will have to supplement our home grown talent with some free agents and/or trades for established players. Not necessarily first tier but smart choices with good value that will contribute to our team if and when we are contenders.


I agree with the trades, but what I don't like is the mentality that permeates a lot of this board that it's EITHER accumulate youth OR sign major league talent. You can do both. Other teams do it all the time.

I don't have a problem trading Bay and Nady (though it wasn't a guarantee Bay would leave, as some have suggested). I love the return the team got on Bay, though Nady I'm not that impressed. The Pirates have some good, young talent, now let's supplement that with some ***smart*** free agent signings.


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 Post subject: Re: bullishhitter comments
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 2:39 pm 
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bullishhitter wrote:
Willton wrote:
By the way, for those of you who think that Bay would have stayed in Pittsburgh after 2009, don't kid yourself. Free agent players always follow the money, and Bay would have gotten a lot of money from somebody (probably Boston).

And if any of the prospects turn into proven productive talent, they will do the same in due time. The key question is not who, or what, or when, but why. And you said it...follow the money. The money is the why. Money needed to keep proven vets will go to unproven prospects in hope enough will produce at the same or beter than those who were traded. When a player gets to the same juncture as Bay, they'll repeat the follow the money cycle. Who controls the money?...Nutting. What is the result? The same results for the last 16 years.

You should also take the same look at player acquisition from the stance of Nutting and the PBC:

1. On who should we spend money?
2. What amount of money should we spend?
3. When should we spend that amount of money?
4. And finally, why should we do so?

Answered in turn:
1. We should spend money on players that are talented and will be valuable to the team for the life of the entire contract.
2. We should pay those players an amount that is not more than what they are worth to the team.
3. We should spend that money when we have enough talent that allows the team to contend for the playoffs.
4. We should do so for the purpose of reaching the playoffs, not just to win one more game.

We are not at the "when" point right now. We have a weak pitching staff, a terrible middle infield, and, at the time of the trades, no decent third baseman. We also have very little in the minor leagues to replace any players that may get injured or leave during the off-season. There was no way that the Pirates were going to fix all of that in one off-season. And by the time such problems would have been fixed, Nady and Bay would no longer be the "who" that Nutting should be willing to employ at a high salary.

The Pirates with Nady and Bay were going nowhere. The only justification for holding on to Bay and Nady is to just win a few more games. That is not the "why" for spending money on players. The Pirates are more concerned with building a good organization that will contend for many years than they are concerned with avoiding some dubious losing record, and rightly so.

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 Post subject: Re: bullishhitter comments
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 3:26 pm 
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I would disagree that we have a terrible middle infield.


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 Post subject: Re: bullishhitter comments
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 3:40 pm 
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Az Bucco fan wrote:
I would disagree that we have a terrible middle infield.


I believe he meant offensively...

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 Post subject: Re: bullishhitter comments
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 3:57 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
I agree with the trades, but what I don't like is the mentality that permeates a lot of this board that it's EITHER accumulate youth OR sign major league talent. You can do both. Other teams do it all the time ... The Pirates have some good, young talent, now let's supplement that with some ***smart*** free agent signings.

The bolded, above, has been the model for failure for the Baltimore Orioles for the past decade. Many Yankee fans will claim that it's no mere coincidence that they haven't won a World Series since they started signing or trading for stars rather than developing young, in-house talent — the template for their late 90s dynasty.

Wasting money on free agents during the early stages of a rebuild is pretty much the kiss of death for the endeavor. You stock your system, you develop your people, you see who succeeds and who fails, then you plug holes via free agency. It is quite literally the final piece of the puzzle. And — if the 08 Tampa Bay Rays be proof — perhaps an unnecessary one.

And if you think the Pirates will go into the 08 offseason at the same point of the curve as the 05 Tigers or 07 Rays ... I don't know what to tell you, other than to loosen the strap on your tinfoil helmet.

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 Post subject: Re: bullishhitter comments
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 4:08 pm 
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LtCol Kojak Slaphead wrote:
I don't know what to tell you, other than to loosen the strap on your tinfoil helmet.



Like this guy?


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 Post subject: Re: bullishhitter comments
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 4:27 pm 
LtCol Kojak Slaphead wrote:
Elmer wrote:
I agree with the trades, but what I don't like is the mentality that permeates a lot of this board that it's EITHER accumulate youth OR sign major league talent. You can do both. Other teams do it all the time ... The Pirates have some good, young talent, now let's supplement that with some ***smart*** free agent signings.

The bolded, above, has been the model for failure for the Baltimore Orioles for the past decade. Many Yankee fans will claim that it's no mere coincidence that they haven't won a World Series since they started signing or trading for stars rather than developing young, in-house talent — the template for their late 90s dynasty.

Wasting money on free agents during the early stages of a rebuild is pretty much the kiss of death for the endeavor. You stock your system, you develop your people, you see who succeeds and who fails, then you plug holes via free agency. It is quite literally the final piece of the puzzle. And — if the 08 Tampa Bay Rays be proof — perhaps an unnecessary one.

And if you think the Pirates will go into the 08 offseason at the same point of the curve as the 05 Tigers or 07 Rays ... I don't know what to tell you, other than to loosen the strap on your tinfoil helmet.


I think we disagree in that you assume we will, again, be in the "early stages of rebuilding" next year. Most people on the board seem to think thank 2010 as the year the Pirates have the best shot to compete. If that's the case, 2009 isn't the "early stages" of rebuilding, it's just one year away. So if the talent is good enough to compete in 2010, it MAY be ready to compete in 2009. I don't believe in assuming a year will be a losing one before the first pitch is thrown.

I agree that they shouldn't waste money on free agents. I don't consider signing good free agents who will help they win in 2009, 2010, 2011 wasting money. If they see a chance to improve the team, they should do it, imo.


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 Post subject: Re: bullishhitter comments
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 4:53 pm 
sisyphus wrote:
Elmer wrote:
omgardd wrote:
I've been reading this board for awhile now and for the life of me I don't understand the negative attitudes most of you have towards Bullishhitter. Like myself he seems to be a true Pirate fan disillusioned with the way the organization has been run for the past 16 years. Can you really blame him or anyone else who feels the same way? After 16 years of frustration its perfectly rational to take I'll believe it when I see it approach regarding this team.

You guys are homers of the worst kind.


omgardd: You are sooooooo on-the-money about the homers on this board. It's not all posters; many are realists who criticize when warranted and praise when warranted. But there are some are blinded by what the WANT to believe.

I don't agree with everything BH says, but you are right about the "wait and see" school of thought. After this much losing (during much of which Nutting was involved with the team), how can you blame anyone for doubting the Pirates after all the crap we've been fed for so long?

I like a lot of what the new administration has done and dislike some of what it has done. I am praising where management should be praised, but I'm not about to bow down before Nutting/NH/Coonley until the wins show up.

So let me ask you Elmer. Why should I be required to adopt a wait and see attitude towards the current management team? Why should I not look at what they've done so far and make whatever conclusion I think fits the facts? Just to give you an example, why did you conclude that Morgan was better than McLouth? Why didn't you adopt a wait and see attitude?


I don't believe I said you were "required" to take a wait and see attitude. I think it's a wiser approach, and I certainly can't blame anyone who takes that approach, but I never said you were required to do anything.

From my end, the Morgan/McLouth comparison is different because neither player has sucked or been a stud for 16 years. After 16 years of losing -- during much of that time Nutting was involved -- I'm not ready to proclaim things "all better." I like some of what I've seen, but I want to see things continue. There's been way way way too much damage done to the organization to think that things are, all of a sudden, fine.

Also, I don't think player projection is the same thing as ownership projection. Apples and oranges.


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 Post subject: Re: bullishhitter comments
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 4:58 pm 
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Elmer wrote:

I think we disagree in that you assume we will, again, be in the "early stages of rebuilding" next year. Most people on the board seem to think thank 2010 as the year the Pirates have the best shot to compete. If that's the case, 2009 isn't the "early stages" of rebuilding, it's just one year away. So if the talent is good enough to compete in 2010, it MAY be ready to compete in 2009. I don't believe in assuming a year will be a losing one before the first pitch is thrown.

I agree that they shouldn't waste money on free agents. I don't consider signing good free agents who will help they win in 2009, 2010, 2011 wasting money. If they see a chance to improve the team, they should do it, imo.

I don't see them competing in 2010.

NH and FC put a lot of essential pieces in place during the offseason, but the real work of the rebuild didn't — and couldn't — start until the Bay and Nady trades and the signing of their draftees. So they're about a month in. That puts them firmly in the early stages of rebuilding next year in my book, especially since I don't see NH having much of value to trade in the offseason. I think 2011 is a far more realistic timetable for winning.

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