Proud fans of a 128-year old tradition

It is currently Tue Jul 29, 2014 9:57 pm

All times are UTC - 4 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 122 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Trade Jack Wilson!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 3:23 am 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:52 pm
Posts: 4822
Location: Pittsburgh
ZelieMike wrote:
jaybee24 wrote:

This was sarcastic right? His lifetime OBP is .312, lifetime OPS of .687.


Not in the least. You made my point perfectly. Your problem with him is... he doesn't walk enough.

Nope. It's that he doesn't get enough hits to make up for the walks he doesn't take, and he has no power at all.

Quote:
When was he hitting .400? Did I miss something?


From All Star break last year through All Star break this year. He was one of the top five hitters in the game during that span.[/quote]
Yes, thanks to an injury that kept his bat from dragging his hot end of the year numbers from 2007 down towards his typically bad 2008 level. If you think that Wilson was one of the best 5 hitters in baseball during that span, then you think that a guy who goes 1 for 1, then dies in a terrible accident, is the greatest hitter of all time.

Quote:
I don't give a crap about VORP, because I dont' play fantasy baseball.

VORP has nothing to do with fantasy baseball.

Quote:
You want to know his importance, look at the club without him, and with him, in the field. The go from worst defensive team in league, to one of the best.

LOL. No, they go from the worst defensive team in the league to one of the worst defensive teams in the league. Their defense flat stinks, Wilson or no Wilson. There is more to defense than fielding percentage, you know.

Quote:
Then, go look at his bat work. Take your eyes off the stat sheet and watch him play sometime.

ZM

Looking at his bat work is what makes me think he's expendable. Out after out after out, with an occasional weak single thrown in for variety.

_________________
"Enjoy every sandwich." - Warren Zevon


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Trade Jack Wilson!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 3:31 am 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:52 pm
Posts: 4822
Location: Pittsburgh
Piratefan13 wrote:
blah blah blah blah blah....

Statistics alone mean nothing. Gene Alley batted .227 in '71 when we won the championship. .240 in '70, .248 in '72, Taveras hit .246 in '74 and .212 in '75, all division championship teams. Ozzie Smith had a lifetime .267 and .337 obp. Can you explain what exactly is the problem?

Gene Alley and Frank Taveras had little to do with the Pirates winning those championships. The Pirates won those Championships in spite of their weak shortstops, not because of them. I don't see any Clementes or Stargells around to take up the slack for Jack right now.

Quote:
So why are you guys all-of-a-sudden so worried about getting rid of Jack right now? Right in the middle of a slump for him? Thats a DL move if I ever did see one. You guys need to get the DL method out of your brains. I know there is a contingent of folks that despise Jack for some reason, what happened? Did he kill your cats?

I'm not for getting rid of Jack unless we get an adequate return for him, and the same goes for every other player on the roster.

_________________
"Enjoy every sandwich." - Warren Zevon


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Trade Jack Wilson!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 3:40 am 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:52 pm
Posts: 4822
Location: Pittsburgh
ZelieMike wrote:
I don't believe so BBF. The arguement is a generic minor leaguer.

No it isn't. VORP stands for Value Over Replacement Player. That's an average player who is freely available, whether through waivers, free agency, or trade. It doesn't mean you can just throw anybody out there, in particular a rookie who projects as a ML utility play and is clearly a nervous wreck over his major league debut.

No mention made of the next Henly Ramerez. See what I mean? You (rhetorically) make the arguement that an unproven, generic minor leaguer can replace Wilson. Well, guess what, we saw that. It wasn't pretty.

We also saw the virtual turnaround in defense with and without Jack. Going from worst without, to statistically, one of the best, with him.

I believe that you and I both know his value lies primarily in his intangibles that add to, and complement his raw numbers.

ZM[/quote]
When his intangibles double home the winning run to win a tight game, then give me a call.

_________________
"Enjoy every sandwich." - Warren Zevon


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Trade Jack Wilson!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 3:43 am 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 1:47 am
Posts: 105
The only problem I see with trading Jack Wilson is that we wouldn't have anyone to play SS. If the could get a major league SS in return then it would be OK, but only if he's better than Jack. I don't see a team trading for a lesser SS so I doubt this will happen.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Trade Jack Wilson!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 3:56 am 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:52 pm
Posts: 4822
Location: Pittsburgh
No. 9 wrote:
I was curious to see what effect the A's OBP and OPS had on their run production . . . here's what I found how the A's fared compared to AL competitors since Beane took over as GM:

Year OBP OPS Runs
1997 8/14 8/14 11/14
1998 9/14 11/14 9/14
1999 4/14 5/14 3/14
2000 3/14 4/14 3/14
2001 3/14 5/14 4/14
2002 5/14 6/14 8/14
2003 10/14 10/14 9/14
2004 5/14 8/14 9/14
2005 5/14 10/14 6/14
2006 7/14 11/14 9/14
2007 6/14 11/14 11/14
2008 14/14 14/14 14/14

I found it curious that the A's have only finished in the top half of the AL in runs scored once since 2001. The A's may get on base with more frequency than other AL teams but apparently can't figure out a way to get the runners home as well as other AL teams.

The point of Moneyball was that Beane was looking for baseball skills that were undervalued. At the time it was written, OBP was undervalued. With the success of the A's, teams began to place more value on the ability to get on base, so it is no longer undervalued. If you look at the teams that Beane has built over the last few seasons, it appears that he has concluded that defense is now undervalued. And Beane's goal was not to get the top offense in the league. It was to get enough offense to compete for a playoff spot within the A's limited budget.

You also fail to note that the A's play in a ballpark that tends to suppress run scoring by 7-10%.

_________________
"Enjoy every sandwich." - Warren Zevon


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Trade Jack Wilson!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 3:58 am 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:52 pm
Posts: 4822
Location: Pittsburgh
No. 9 wrote:
I guess I was surprised that, with Beane's alleged focus on getting high OBP players that although the A's have ranked in the top 50% of the AL in OBP in 5 of the 7 years beginning in 2002, they have been in the top 50% of runs scored in the AL only once during that same time period.
My recollection of Moneyball was that Lewis wrote about Beane's shift in focus on the 2002 draft after being upset about the selection of Bonderman in the 2001 draft. What I found interesting is that, since 2002, the A's have ranked 9th ('03), 9th ('04), 6th ('05), 9th ('06), 11th ('07) and 14th ('08) in runs scored in the AL. If Beane is responsible for the product on the field, I'd call that "decidedly mediocre" at best. If Beane is to be hailed as a genius for focusing on OBP and how that truly measures run production and the A's minor league system should be looked upon as the prototype for all other programs because it instills that mentality into its players (players don't advance unless they average 1 BB per 10 plate appearances or something like that), then I have to ask why haven't the A's been more prolific in scoring runs?

Because they have changed their focus to defense and pitching.

_________________
"Enjoy every sandwich." - Warren Zevon


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Trade Jack Wilson!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 4:01 am 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:52 pm
Posts: 4822
Location: Pittsburgh
ZelieMike wrote:
Willton wrote:
I gotta agree with jay, ZM. You kinda torpedoed your credibility when you claimed to have read Moneyball yet implied that Billy Beane wrote it.


Oh, for chissakes! Ok, what Billy Beane TOLD HIS GHOST WRITER.. ok... happy now.

ZM

A ghost writer's name does not appear on the cover of a book at all, or it is preceded by "as told to" or "with". Moneyball is a book that Michael Lewis wrote about Billy Beane. Beane is not responsible for it's content.

_________________
"Enjoy every sandwich." - Warren Zevon


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Trade Jack Wilson!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 4:04 am 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:52 pm
Posts: 4822
Location: Pittsburgh
No. 9 wrote:
Willton wrote:
The reason Beane is featured in the book is because the A's were the only organization willing to divulge information on how they do business.


Huh?
Although it has been some time since I read the book, I seem to recall that the very premise of the book was Lewis' curiousity as to why the A's were winning with a low payroll versus higher payroll teams. It was not as if Lewis was looking to do a 30 team overview of the front offices across the country.

I also find it somewhat humorous that some people are saying that Beane is no longer able to "fleece" other GMs because the inefficiencies that he claims to have exploited are no longer in the marketplace. If this is indeed the case (and I'm not willing to concede one way or the other), then it really wasn't a smart move on his part to open his "playbook" to an author and belittle the other GMs with whom he would be dealing.

Because, you know, nobody at all noticed that Beane had a whole lot of guys like Matt Stairs, Scott Hatteberg and Olmedo Saenz on his team.

_________________
"Enjoy every sandwich." - Warren Zevon


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Trade Jack Wilson!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 4:08 am 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:52 pm
Posts: 4822
Location: Pittsburgh
ZelieMike wrote:
BBF wrote:

1. Jack Wilson is not a weak hitting shortstop.


For this one, I looked around for something that you might find acceptable. Here is what I found.

http://www.fangraphs.com/comparison.asp ... &type=full

You'll note that in all the major catagories posted, that only walks falls into the poor catagory on any kind of regular basis. Avg is average to good. K% is good, ratio of walks to K, good, heck even slugging and OBP are at the league/positional average for extended periods.

Batting average does not correlate well with scoring runs. A low strikeout rate does not correlate well with run scoring. Etc., etc, etc.

Quote:
So, I'm finding it hard, outside of using the very limited notions of walks, and power, to classify a hitter as good to classify Wilson as "anemic" or "poor" or "weak" hitting. Especially when one considers what his manager have asked him to do (rightly or wrongly within stategery of the game) ie, sacrifice a lot from the 2-hole. Make contact to RF from the 8 hole or 2 hole. In short, handle the bat well to play small ball action.

ZM

As you know, a sacrifice bunt has no impact on OBP or slugging percentage. Feel free to deduct all of Wilson's "productive" outs from his batting record and you will find that he is still a lousy hitter.

_________________
"Enjoy every sandwich." - Warren Zevon


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Trade Jack Wilson!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 10:19 am 
Offline
User avatar
 WWW  YIM  Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:24 pm
Posts: 4080
Location: Zelienople, PA
Again, look at the actual stats I did post. He hits just fine. He doesn't walk like the new boys want, though, and as I've freely admitted.

His bat handling includes all those things you don't think are important, but that somehow, people who actually manage clubs, do.

ZM

_________________
Someone tell Votto... rbis are good


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Trade Jack Wilson!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 10:36 am 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:11 pm
Posts: 3364
Location: Wheeling, WV
You two can't both have the last word on the Wilson thing. How about letting Neal Hunington make the decision. He has, as of this morning, risen in status for all Pirate fans. Looks like we finally have an honest to goodness real front office who can build the team we want.

Maybe, just maybe, they will decide what to do with Jack Flash since you two can't agree. Give it a rest.

_________________
2011 Will Be Our Year -- well make that 2012 (just saying) So it looks like 2013 now - how long must this go on!
THIS IS IT-- NO MORE STREAK!!! *** Finally*** Time to win it in 2014


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Trade Jack Wilson!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 11:23 am 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 2:11 pm
Posts: 5357
Location: 120 miles west of Iowa City
sisyphus wrote:
Because they have changed their focus to defense and pitching.


In my current arena of employment, I always try to advise clients to provide "reasons" for their decisions as opposed to "excuses." IMO, this decidedly smells of the latter. As in, the A's offense sucks, Beane was hailed as a offensive maverick/genius . . . hmmmm . . . what can we come up with to make sure that Beane remains exalted? Sorry, not buying it. Not at all.

_________________
Reflexively, obsessively and tastelessly submitted,
No. 9
Obsessive proponent of situational bunting and 2 strike hitting approaches, reflexively pro-catchers calling good games and tasteless proponent of the value of a RBI.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Trade Jack Wilson!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 11:53 am 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:52 pm
Posts: 4822
Location: Pittsburgh
ZelieMike wrote:
Again, look at the actual stats I did post. He hits just fine. He doesn't walk like the new boys want, though, and as I've freely admitted.

Yes, he hits just fine as long as you focus on stats that do not correlate well with run scoring.

Quote:
His bat handling includes all those things you don't think are important, but that somehow, people who actually manage clubs, do.

ZM

There are people who manage clubs who think that walks show a fatal lack of aggressiveness at the plate. Such people aren't very good managers, but they are out there. I'll take Earl Weaver over Gene Mauch.

_________________
"Enjoy every sandwich." - Warren Zevon


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Trade Jack Wilson!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 11:55 am 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:52 pm
Posts: 4822
Location: Pittsburgh
No. 9 wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
Because they have changed their focus to defense and pitching.


In my current arena of employment, I always try to advise clients to provide "reasons" for their decisions as opposed to "excuses." IMO, this decidedly smells of the latter. As in, the A's offense sucks, Beane was hailed as a offensive maverick/genius . . . hmmmm . . . what can we come up with to make sure that Beane remains exalted? Sorry, not buying it. Not at all.

You don't have to buy it, but it's true. Moneyball was not about on base percentage. Moneyball was about identifying skills that were undervalued in the marketplace.

_________________
"Enjoy every sandwich." - Warren Zevon


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Trade Jack Wilson!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 2:12 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 2:11 pm
Posts: 5357
Location: 120 miles west of Iowa City
sisyphus wrote:
You don't have to buy it, but it's true. Moneyball was not about on base percentage. Moneyball was about identifying skills that were undervalued in the marketplace.


Yes, it was. Anyone who read the book fully understands this. My point was about Beane's current "strategy."
Whether Beane has now shifted his focus because he believes that defense is undervalued or his players have not done as he anticipated is a completely different issue. I don't buy the notion that Beane remains "ahead of the curve" and is building a winner by focusing on defense. Again, IMO, there is a fair amount of Beane Kool-Aid being consumed by a lot of people.

Don't get me wrong. Not saying that he's an idiot. Far from it. But I remain wholly unconvinced that Beane is the genius that others have annoited him to be.

_________________
Reflexively, obsessively and tastelessly submitted,
No. 9
Obsessive proponent of situational bunting and 2 strike hitting approaches, reflexively pro-catchers calling good games and tasteless proponent of the value of a RBI.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Trade Jack Wilson!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 4:17 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2008 10:28 am
Posts: 631
Deer god, even I don't care if they trade the guy anymore. Let it end!!!


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Trade Jack Wilson!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 7:05 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 7:19 am
Posts: 1486
For the record I want to keep Jack. I think. :?


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Trade Jack Wilson!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 7:58 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:11 pm
Posts: 3364
Location: Wheeling, WV
Ollie for god's sake 12 pages and you want more discussion of Wilson's value? pleasssse enough :( :( :( :( :( :(

_________________
2011 Will Be Our Year -- well make that 2012 (just saying) So it looks like 2013 now - how long must this go on!
THIS IS IT-- NO MORE STREAK!!! *** Finally*** Time to win it in 2014


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Trade Jack Wilson!!!!
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 12:35 am 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2008 10:28 am
Posts: 631
Here's the problem. Since I started this thread, Jack has raised his average from .268 to .281. Earlier I said that this thread needs to go away, but I am superstitious and now think that this thread can not die until Jack goes cold or gets traded (my preference). So let's keep this thing going!


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Trade Jack Wilson!!!!
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 1:18 am 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Wed May 07, 2008 11:28 pm
Posts: 2170
Maybe jack is on here reading this.

_________________
0 straight losing seasons


Top
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 122 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next

All times are UTC - 4 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], fred_1_15301, Google [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot], JollyRoger, StarlingArcher and 10 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group  
Design By Poker Bandits