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 Post subject: Trade Jack Wilson!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 12:17 am 
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Okay, I seem to have annoyed everyone with my "Trade Doumit and Mclouth" thread, but I ain't even close to done.
Jack Wilson is hitting .268 and has 14 RBIs with 0 home runs. He makes about $7.5 mil next year on a team that has a payroll under $50 mil.
Apparently at the trade deadline there were teams that wanted him. I can't help but feel that he should have been dealt. I like him, and think that on a contending team he would be a valuable player. But on our team, he just isn't.
I know his defense is great, but c'mon, 15% of your payroll for a week hitting, good defensive shortstop.....I just don't get it.


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 Post subject: Re: Trade Jack Wilson!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 1:36 am 
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The problem is who replaces him at shortstop...He is much better then bixler.

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 Post subject: Re: Trade Jack Wilson!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 2:03 am 
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One thing we found out when Jack was on the DL hurt was that Jack Wilson in extremely valuable to this team. As much as I didn't like trading Doumit and McClouth, I equally don't like trading Jack. There is NOBODY to replace him in our entire system. Until there is, Jack must stay.


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 Post subject: Re: Trade Jack Wilson!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 7:19 am 
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Unless you package him with someone else, you won't get very much in return for Jack. The time to have dealt him was last winter.

Quote:
There is NOBODY to replace him in our entire system.


And then there's that to consider as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Trade Jack Wilson!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 11:57 am 
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Let Bixler have it for the rest of the season. These games don't matter. and we might as well give him a second chance to see if he is worth anything. For next year just try and sign someone for 3 or 4 million who can average more than a half a million dollars per RBI.
As far as "getting something for him", not so concerned with that. $7.5 million is "something" anyway.
I know I sound as though I am down on Jack, and I am not. As I said on another club he would have real value, and I doubt he would be hitting in the 9 hole much of the season!
I'm sure that the one person who would agree with this thread would be Jack Wilson. Let him go contend for something for a change.


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 Post subject: Re: Trade Jack Wilson!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 12:37 pm 
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Jim, where you watching when Jack was hurt? Or did you just become a Pirate fan a few weeks ago? We sucked. Our entire defense sucked. Bixler especially sucked.

We can't trade Jack until we find another shortstop. Period.


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 Post subject: Re: Trade Jack Wilson!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 1:03 pm 
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Kevin Goldstein wrote an evaluation of the Pirates system since the deadline deals. Here's what he had to say about the system's strength at shortstop:
Quote:
Shortstop: Still a nightmare. One of the more frustrating combinations of a non-productive starter (Jack Wilson) with a bad contract, paired with a system with no short-term prospects at the position. The Jack Wilson era likely ends after 2009, as Pittsburgh will almost gladly pay $600,000 to avoid giving him another $8.4 million, but as far as who takes over the position at that time, it's a bit of a mystery. The organization spent their third- (Jordy Mercer) and fourth-round (Chase D'Arnaud) picks on polished college shortstops without a ton of upside, and they already have one of those in the system in Brian Friday, a third-round selection from last year who has plus defensive skills, good speed, excellent contact abilities, and no power.

Given our weakness at 2B as well, our keystone guys for next year will unfortunately likely be the same guys as this year: Freddy and Jack.

Jack will not be traded, not because he's a necessity to this team, but because he has no trade value.

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 Post subject: Re: Trade Jack Wilson!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 2:20 pm 
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Quote:
Jim, where you watching when Jack was hurt? Or did you just become a Pirate fan a few weeks ago? We sucked. Our entire defense sucked. Bixler especially sucked.


And with him we're winning the World Series?
I know we don't have a replacement in the wings, but we can sign someone for a HECKOFALOT less money.
A small market team CAN NOT afford this kind of salary on a role player. These kinds of contracts are why we are in our 15th strait losing season. I seriously doubt he'll be a bucco next year.
And why on earth would ANYONE have become a pirates fan a "few weeks ago"? Were they good that day or somthing?


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 Post subject: Re: Trade Jack Wilson!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 4:19 pm 
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JimY wrote:
Quote:
Jim, where you watching when Jack was hurt? Or did you just become a Pirate fan a few weeks ago? We sucked. Our entire defense sucked. Bixler especially sucked.


And with him we're winning the World Series?
I know we don't have a replacement in the wings, but we can sign someone for a HECKOFALOT less money.
A small market team CAN NOT afford this kind of salary on a role player. These kinds of contracts are why we are in our 15th strait losing season. I seriously doubt he'll be a bucco next year.
And why on earth would ANYONE have become a pirates fan a "few weeks ago"? Were they good that day or somthing?


If Jack is stinking up the joint so bad, why would any team want to trade for him?
They were interested in him when he was still hitting .290

Trading Jack makes your defense even worse...This team has the offense to compensate for Jack not hitting well...Who knows his injury in the beginning of the year could still be lingering some, damn Diaz...

No one thought Freddy was going to stink up the joint for half the year and that Snell and Gorzo would be awful too...

Most here figure Jack to be a .270 hitter, his power numbers are down which is a little of a concern, but could be he's still hurting some or needs a day or two off...

Jack has a high contract, but right now you suck it up and deal with it until you find a replacement, and there arent m*** replacements out there that can field the position better than Jack...

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 Post subject: Re: Trade Jack Wilson!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 6:43 pm 
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JimY wrote:
Let Bixler have it for the rest of the season. These games don't matter. and we might as well give him a second chance to see if he is worth anything. For next year just try and sign someone for 3 or 4 million who can average more than a half a million dollars per RBI.
As far as "getting something for him", not so concerned with that. $7.5 million is "something" anyway.
I know I sound as though I am down on Jack, and I am not. As I said on another club he would have real value, and I doubt he would be hitting in the 9 hole much of the season!
I'm sure that the one person who would agree with this thread would be Jack Wilson. Let him go contend for something for a change.


So your whole argument is to trade him to save $3 million?

You must be a Reds fan in disguise because no Pirates fan is that stupid.


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 Post subject: Re: Trade Jack Wilson!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 8:49 pm 
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You want to pay $500,000 per RBI and I'm stupid.


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 Post subject: Re: Trade Jack Wilson!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 10:43 pm 
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JimY wrote:
You want to pay $500,000 per RBI and I'm stupid.


No, but I'm ok with him getting paid for his .270 average and gold glove caliber defense at SS...

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I say keep the $50 and ban him anyway...

For those jumping ship, we'll keep the bandwagon warm for you...


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 Post subject: Re: Trade Jack Wilson!!!!
PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 12:00 am 
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JimY wrote:
You want to pay $500,000 per RBI and I'm stupid.


Look kid....there's more to baseball than hitting.

Maybe you should look in to an AL team to root for where defense is an afterthought.


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 Post subject: Re: Trade Jack Wilson!!!!
PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 12:17 am 
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Jeremy wrote:
JimY wrote:
You want to pay $500,000 per RBI and I'm stupid.


Look kid....there's more to baseball than hitting.

Maybe you should look in to an AL team to root for where defense is an afterthought.


Baseball is the most important thing for a non pitcher though. But there is more to hitting then rbis.

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 Post subject: Re: Trade Jack Wilson!!!!
PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 4:22 am 
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Jeremy wrote:
JimY wrote:
You want to pay $500,000 per RBI and I'm stupid.


Look kid....there's more to baseball than hitting.

Maybe you should look in to an AL team to root for where defense is an afterthought.

That's hardly a fair statement, considering the two best teams at fielding defense are in the AL (Oakland and Tampa).

Yes, there's more to baseball than hitting. But that doesn't mean we should settle for an offensive zero like Jack at SS just because his defense is pretty good. Jack brings this team down with his awful hitting, and his defense does not make up for it. It's time to find a new SS, and the Bucs need to do it soon.

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 Post subject: Re: Trade Jack Wilson!!!!
PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 11:09 am 
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I think some of the people in this conversation are making their judgments from an emotional standpoint. We all like Jack. He does play some great defense, but I'll bet we could get a slick fielding, week hitting SS for much less than 7.5 mil. Here is a list of FA
Shortstops.

Orlando Cabrera (34) Not that much more expensive than Jack, much better offensively.
David Eckstein (34) A ton cheaper than Jack, not losing much on offence or defence
Adam Everett (32) Stinks with the bat, not bad with the glove
Rafael Furcal (31) Wouldn't sign here, still not THAT much more expensive than Jack
Nomar Garciaparra (35) Not really a SS anymore
Cesar Izturis (29) His numbers aren't that much worse than Jack MUCH cheaper, still...no
Felipe Lopez (29) Still cheaper, still better
Edgar Renteria (33) - Doubt he'd sign here.
Juan Uribe (30) Not great numbers, not $7.5 mil
Omar Vizquel (42) - Might be cheap, still VERY old, may be washed up

Keep in mind there might even be some Mike Benjamin type player that I've never heard of who could play steady Defense with lousy offense.

Still, we would need a SS for the future, which we could aquire in our Doumit trade. :)

My only concern is weather or not Jack would still wear a Pirates cap on his Hall of Fame Plaque....


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 Post subject: Re: Trade Jack Wilson!!!!
PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 11:10 am 
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Willton wrote:
Jeremy wrote:
JimY wrote:
You want to pay $500,000 per RBI and I'm stupid.


Look kid....there's more to baseball than hitting.

Maybe you should look in to an AL team to root for where defense is an afterthought.

That's hardly a fair statement, considering the two best teams at fielding defense are in the AL (Oakland and Tampa).

Yes, there's more to baseball than hitting. But that doesn't mean we should settle for an offensive zero like Jack at SS just because his defense is pretty good. Jack brings this team down with his awful hitting, and his defense does not make up for it. It's time to find a new SS, and the Bucs need to do it soon.


Of course we need to find a new SS, but we go from a so so team with Wilson to a 110 loss team without him.

But we still have morons on this board who think that everyone should be traded regardless of what we get back for them.


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 Post subject: Re: Trade Jack Wilson!!!!
PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 11:32 am 
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Wilton, you hit this one on the head. Wilson makes some great plays on defense but he kills the team at the plate. Considering all the other things like his salary, age, and the fact that we are clearly rebuilding and you need to think about going in a different direction. I'd be stunned if he is our shortstop at the start of next season. I'm not as down on him as I used to be, but I still think for the future you go in a different direction there. And I think, considering Huntington seemed insistent on getting back Bignac from Tampa in a deal, that the Pirates are thinking that same way.

And Jeremy, I don't think everyone should be traded just to trade them. But when you rebuild there is no reason to keep around an overpaid, no-hit SS because he is a good defender. Yes, he saves runs but you are severely over valuing him with your comment. Plus, much to my surprise, he apparently may bring back a decent return. I still, and always will, cringe every time I think of Jarrs Jurgens in our rotation right now. That's what he would have brought straight up last year if we didn't have a clueless idiot for a GM.


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 Post subject: Re: Trade Jack Wilson!!!!
PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 11:47 am 
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PirateParrot wrote:
Wilton, you hit this one on the head. Wilson makes some great plays on defense but he kills the team at the plate. Considering all the other things like his salary, age, and the fact that we are clearly rebuilding and you need to think about going in a different direction. I'd be stunned if he is our shortstop at the start of next season. I'm not as down on him as I used to be, but I still think for the future you go in a different direction there. And I think, considering Huntington seemed insistent on getting back Bignac from Tampa in a deal, that the Pirates are thinking that same way.

And Jeremy, I don't think everyone should be traded just to trade them. But when you rebuild there is no reason to keep around an overpaid, no-hit SS because he is a good defender. Yes, he saves runs but you are severely over valuing him with your comment. Plus, much to my surprise, he apparently may bring back a decent return. I still, and always will, cringe every time I think of Jarrs Jurgens in our rotation right now. That's what he would have brought straight up last year if we didn't have a clueless idiot for a GM.


You might not....but Jimy does and that's who I'm arguing with. Go back and look at what he's said. He wants Wilson gone in a straight salary dump.


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 Post subject: Re: Trade Jack Wilson!!!!
PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 12:34 pm 
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Jeremy wrote:

Of course we need to find a new SS, but we go from a so so team with Wilson to a 110 loss team without him.

But we still have morons on this board who think that everyone should be traded regardless of what we get back for them.


So seeing as the Pirates are on pace for 88 losses, you're saying Jack's worth 22 wins. He'd be making a lot more than $7 million a year if that were the case. I'd say there's a pretty select list of players who are worth 20+ wins to their team in a season, and Jack isn't on it.

If the Pirates can get really good value for Jack, they should trade him. Yeah, maybe we'll be screwed next season with Bixler there, but the Pirates aren't going to be competitive next year anyway. And I'm reasonably confident that by the time they are competitive, say in three years, they'll have been able to add a decent SS by the draft or free agency.

I keep going back and forth on this myself, but I'm finding myself more in the "trade Jack" camp as I look at more numbers. He's 24th in the majors in OPS for SS with 250+ PA. Even if he were playing Ozzie Smith type defense, it wouldn't be enough to overcome his horrendous bat. If he were making $500k a year, I'd say keep him, but the Pirates can find a good SS for cheaper.


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