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 Post subject: Another Boston Site Thinking Pirates got Hosed on Trades
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 10:35 am 
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http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/rumors/post ... =mlb,98109

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One baseball executive's take on the Pirates' moves: "Moss might be the most impactful major leaguer they got. They got upper-level prospects, but no one of major impact. Hansen has a good arm. LaRoche has good power, but I don't like him defensively and he won't hit enough.

"I think for the players they traded, they didn't get enough impact back."


Yahoo said it was from Boston.com...

Whats even funnier is some of the comments from the A-Holes in New England and some of the 'fans' of the Pirates

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 Post subject: Re: Another Boston Site Thinking Pirates got Hosed on Trades
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 2:21 pm 
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Well, you've convinced me, Boston. I guess I'll go sulk in a corner. But before I go, I hope you enjoy Jason Bay. Next time he looks at a strike three, just chalk it up to "Jason being Jason."


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 Post subject: Re: Another Boston Site Thinking Pirates got Hosed on Trades
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 3:00 pm 
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The same clowns were saying in August of 2003, "The Pirates did not get enough for Brian Giles!!"


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 Post subject: Re: Another Boston Site Thinking Pirates got Hosed on Trades
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 3:03 pm 
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nad69dan wrote:
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/rumors/post/Pirates-were-most-active-got-least-in-return-at?urn=mlb,98109

Quote:
One baseball executive's take on the Pirates' moves: "Moss might be the most impactful major leaguer they got. They got upper-level prospects, but no one of major impact. Hansen has a good arm. LaRoche has good power, but I don't like him defensively and he won't hit enough.

"I think for the players they traded, they didn't get enough impact back."


Yahoo said it was from Boston.com...

Whats even funnier is some of the comments from the A-Holes in New England and some of the 'fans' of the Pirates


Bsotn.com? That site is God awful!


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 Post subject: Re: Another Boston Site Thinking Pirates got Hosed on Trades
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 3:14 pm 
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There's no point in getting offended by people bashing the return that we got in the trades. Bottom line, the guys we got have some good upside but none of them are a "can't miss stud" type of guy, they could go either way. If people look at the return and don't think very highly of the prospects, that's fair enough, it's their opinion. I know that I haven't seen too many Boston or LA fans lamenting much over the guys they lost, and they know them a lot better than we do at this point. As Pirates fans all we can do is keep the faith and hope time bears out the returns.


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 Post subject: Re: Another Boston Site Thinking Pirates got Hosed on Trades
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 3:22 pm 
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Time for moi to break my new silence, I guess.

If Red Sox fans are complaining that the Olde Towne Team gave up too much for Jason Bay, I'm amused. Brandon Moss was a distant-fourth outfielder here, and that's all he was ever going to be. LF is the closest thing the Red Sox have to a glamour position (think Ted Williams, Carl Yastrzemski, Jim Rice, and Manny Ramirez), and Moss was not going to get the job once Manny left. It was going to go to a big-name player. In fact, before the deal that brought Bay here, the conventional wisdom was that Boston would trade for Matt Holliday.

Moss had been in the system for years, making gradual, if unspectacular, progress at AA Portland and AAA Pawtucket. He apparently has solid skills, but not "plus" talent. He's not fast enough to play CF, for example. And, barring an injury to J.D. Drew in RF, he'd be used mostly as a pinch-hitter and Sunday afternoon starter on the road. Also, the Red Sox have some great-looking outfield prospects at High-A. So Moss was expendable. I just hope the Bucs weren't thinking of him as another Brian Giles when they pulled the trigger on the deal.

As for Craig Hansen, he was second behind only Julio Lugo as a source of frustration here. The Red Sox drafted him out of St. John's to be their future closer. But he quickly lost command of his fastball and has never recovered it. Meanwhile, Papelbon seized the closer's role and has become one of the best in MLB. No question, Hansen has a power arm. He can bring it consistently at 95-96 m.p.h., and it looks awfully impressive blazing toward the hitter. But he wasn't reliable as a set-up man because as often as not, he'd come in from the bullpen, pour more gasoline on the fire, and have to be taken back out again. And that was with one of the best pitching coaches, John Farrell, tutoring him. Trust me, the Red Sox have relief pitching problems, too. If Hansen had done what was expected of him, he would not have been part of the trade. But they lost faith in him because he walked too many people.

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 Post subject: Re: Another Boston Site Thinking Pirates got Hosed on Trades
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 4:01 pm 
I find it difficult to lump "the trades" together and evaluate them. They were too drastically different trades.

One has been widely praised by professional baseball analysts. While baseball analysts can be wrong, it's hard to argue when so many agree that the Bay trade was a good one.

The other one has bee a split reaction. Some analysts slam the trade and others are OK with it (though few rave about it).


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 Post subject: Re: Another Boston Site Thinking Pirates got Hosed on Trades
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 4:02 pm 
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Bob in Boston wrote:
Moss had been in the system for years, making gradual, if unspectacular, progress at AA Portland and AAA Pawtucket. He apparently has solid skills, but not "plus" talent. He's not fast enough to play CF, for example. And, barring an injury to J.D. Drew in RF, he'd be used mostly as a pinch-hitter and Sunday afternoon starter on the road. Also, the Red Sox have some great-looking outfield prospects at High-A. So Moss was expendable. I just hope the Bucs weren't thinking of him as another Brian Giles when they pulled the trigger on the deal.


Being from Boston I'm sure you've heard a lot more dirt on Moss than I have, but a few counterpoints:

1) Boston gave him all of 103 ABs at the major league level. There is no way a player can be subjectively analyzed with so few at bats.

2) He didn't play college ball and was young, relative to his level, in his minor league career. For example, 20 at High A, 21 at AA and 23 at AAA. He held his own but didn't post spectacular numbers. The numbers may come with a bit more seasoning.

While I'm not saying that he is a slam dunk prospect, what I am saying is that Boston may have given up on this sweet swinging lefty a bit prematurely. I like what I see from him so far and wouldn't be surprised if he turns out to be a winner. Either way, this is exactly the type of player we need to be taking chances on.


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 Post subject: Re: Another Boston Site Thinking Pirates got Hosed on Trades
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 4:21 pm 
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Bob in Boston wrote:
As for Craig Hansen, he was second behind only Julio Lugo as a source of frustration here. The Red Sox drafted him out of St. John's to be their future closer. But he quickly lost command of his fastball and has never recovered it. Meanwhile, Papelbon seized the closer's role and has become one of the best in MLB. No question, Hansen has a power arm. He can bring it consistently at 95-96 m.p.h., and it looks awfully impressive blazing toward the hitter. But he wasn't reliable as a set-up man because as often as not, he'd come in from the bullpen, pour more gasoline on the fire, and have to be taken back out again. ... they lost faith in him because he walked too many people.


Bob: About this issue, I offer the following. I am clearly not picking a fight, and understand that you are providing your first-hand observations relative to the Boston players ... but my take on the situation.

Guys who throw 96-97 mph are pretty rare. Guys who are very athletic and do that are even more rare. Guys who throw that hard, are athletic and have the physical build to pitch 65 times per year, and also feature an 88-mph slider are very, very, very rare. First-round pick rare - which Hansen was.

He has struggled with control in the majors, but in the minors he walked 61 while fanning 117 in 127 innings. Not great control, but certainly not something that would lead one to conclude he cannot find the plate.

And with all the prospects the Pirates receive, there is going to be some criticism. Moss cannot hit lefties, Laroche is not a plus defender at third, Hansen walks too many guys, Ohlendorf posted a 6 ERA with the Yankees, and on and on. If these guys had no downside at all - say, if Hansen and Ohlendorf were throwing 96-97 mph (which they do), with a nasty slider (as they have), and had remarkable control and great production in the majors, they would not have been traded.

So, who should the Pirates get in return? High skill guys (Tabata, Ohlendorf, Hansen, Morris, McCutch-pitch, etc.) who have some blemish? Or "major league ready" mediocrity like Ty Wigginton?

As for Moss ... he is a good-not-great outfielder in the minor leagues. Walks, shows some plate discipline, good power but no 20+ HR season in the minors, can hit for average but K's quite a bit. A functional player, but not a middle-of-the-lineup guy. Not a number 4 hitter.

Those remarks were offered about Jason Bay in 2003. I cannot find the link, but believe me when I say that exact criticism ("good player but not a star") was leveled at Bay. The difference is that Moss is younger than Bay was at the time of the 2003 trade, Moss has a much better arm, and Moss walks a bit less (Bay had as many as 62 walks in a minor league season).


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 Post subject: Re: Another Boston Site Thinking Pirates got Hosed on Trades
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 4:24 pm 
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P.S. I added my comment to the discussion of the trade on the yahoo.com site.


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 Post subject: Re: Another Boston Site Thinking Pirates got Hosed on Trades
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 4:37 pm 
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I cannot get off of this topic. In the Yahoo article, the level of analysis is so wanting that the National Enquirer would tell the author to do some research and get serious.

For example, the author states, "But none of the players the Pirates got was considered "untouchable" by the Dodgers, Red Sox, or Yankees." Huh???

Is it not a truism that players obtained in trade are "touchable" (whatever that means)? Does the guy suggest that the Dodgers, Red Sox, etc. would trade their "untouchable" players?

So, I guess those guys would "untouchable" like Madonna and Britney Spears are untouchable.

Is this line of thinking ("to get a good trade, you must obtain from the other team players they are NOT willing to trade") genuine? Or is this a big joke? "Catch-a-22"???

Finally - and I mean finally, since I need to walk away from this topic and the ridiculous logic employed - the simple fact is this: As of January of 2007, Tabata, Hansen and Laroche were "untouchable."


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 Post subject: Re: Another Boston Site Thinking Pirates got Hosed on Trades
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 4:39 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
P.S. I added my comment to the discussion of the trade on the yahoo.com site.


What's your alias? I looked but could find no one going by he name "Bucfan".


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 Post subject: Re: Another Boston Site Thinking Pirates got Hosed on Trades
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 4:54 pm 
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Argentum wrote:
What's your alias? I looked but could find no one going by he name "Bucfan".


It is not posted as Bucfan. It is the last comment in the thread - number 51.


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 Post subject: Re: Another Boston Site Thinking Pirates got Hosed on Trades
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 5:22 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
I am clearly not picking a fight, and understand that you are providing your first-hand observations relative to the Boston players ...


Bucfan, I understand that, and I'm not interested in a quarrel, either.

What I wrote was strictly in the context of a high-pressure environment, where everything the Red Sox do or that happens to them is measured against their prospects for returning to the World Series.

I can't speak of any "dirt" on Moss; I don't know of any. To my knowledge, he was well-enough liked here -- just not as Manny's successor. Hansen would have been as well, but for his struggles with command.

Red Sox fans demand W's, and players who let them down can expect little in the way of patience. You ought to hear how Dice-K gets roasted on the talk shows. And he has given up only 81 hits in 106-2/3 IP, for pete's sake. But the fans think he nibbles too much.

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 Post subject: Re: Another Boston Site Thinking Pirates got Hosed on Trades
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 5:42 pm 
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Bob in Boston wrote:
Bucfan, I understand that, and I'm not interested in a quarrel, either.

What I wrote was strictly in the context of a high-pressure environment, where everything the Red Sox do or that happens to them is measured against their prospects for returning to the World Series.


This is a new popular phrase - "high pressure environment" and "performing under pressure." New York and Boston have it, other places ... ehh, they aren't New York or Boston.

I think that this analysis is absolutely flawed. Professional baseball players have been playing under pressure their entire lives - they were the best on their team, the best in the league up through age 14. They faced pressure that very, very few young baseball players face. They handle that pressure, or they fail.

They then face pressure in high school. Those who attract the interest of scouts are talented, productive players who peform at a high level. They play under pressure and expectation not seen by many 18-and-under players. They perform under this pressure, or do not advance.

Then, they go to college or pro ball and the cycle continues. By the time a player is 22 or 23 years old, he has played baseball for 16 or 17 years, has been among the best or the best in numerous levels, has carried teams, has been the guy everybody wants to get out, or get a hit off of, and has had to deal with pressure every step of the way.

Now, the player gets to the majors and faces pressure to win a job, or find another career. He must hit or be sent down, get outs or be released. He performs well, in front of large crowds throughout the nation.

He is good enough that the mighty Red Sox show an interest and get him. So, now he faces pressure? A guy with 5 years in the majors, who has dealt with pressure at every level his entire life?

I reject this "oh, there is so much more pressure in Boston/New York" bunk. I think that it is just a way for those cities to pretend that they are "better" (i.e., more difficult place to succeed) than other cities.

Here is what I believe: Good hitters who go to New York or Boston will hit, bad hitters will not. Good pitchers who go to New York or Boston will get outs and win, bad pitchers will not.

And so far, Nady is hitting better in New York than he was in Pittsburgh. Maybe because he has "less pressure"? (If not, then I guess this whole "pressure" business is bunk.)


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 Post subject: Re: Another Boston Site Thinking Pirates got Hosed on Trades
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 6:28 pm 
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The "pressure" of New York and Boston is an invention of the ego of those two cities.

If Boston was in last place, would there still be pressure to perform? If New York was a .500 baseball team, would there still be pressure to perform? I don't think so.

And don't feed me the media line. These players are so insulated from reality, that they don't have to touch a newspaper or listen to a sports radio talk show if they don't want to.

No, pressure some from within or from being in a playoff race. You're going to thrive with that pressure or you're going to wilt no matter where you play. Barry Bonds was a choker in the playoffs and he didn't play in New York. Roger Clemens was good no matter where he played.


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 Post subject: Re: Another Boston Site Thinking Pirates got Hosed on Trades
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 6:34 pm 
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Jeremy wrote:
Barry Bonds was a choker in the playoffs and he didn't play in New York. Roger Clemens was good no matter where he played.


Hmmm ... so I guess there is a split of opinion on whether a guy can "juice" himself through the pressure.


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