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 Post subject: What motivates you to keep watching a terrible team?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 2:38 pm 
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Here are some clips from an article explaining the true reason why you support Bob Nutting's baseball team

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Where do we get that masochistic streak that keeps thousands of us going to see our favorite teams no matter how terrible they are? Even fans of the most storied franchises have had to suffer through extended periods of losing....But through all the losing and hopelessness, a small core of us still go to the games. And we brag about it, too. In fact, I think that's one of the biggest reasons we spend $30 or $40 to see our team in person even though we know they'll probably lose. It's a small price to pay for the right to tell everyone you know that you've been going to games "since before they got good again" or "since the [insert name of horrible player] days......For a group of people who think that the only thing worse than being called a bandwagon-jumper is being called a fair-weather fan, that street cred is pretty important. Not just within your own fan base, but when you talk to fans of other teams, too.......
Regardless of the sport, the team, the reason, and the length of time that a team wallows in its own crapitude, some of us will always keep coming back no matter how many seats are left empty by fair-weather fans who have jumped to a better band in a better wagon. In the end it's not really about loyalty or bragging rights or giveaways or booing. It's about love. Illogical, self-destructive, undying love for something that doesn't always love you back

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 Post subject: Re: What motivates you to keep watching a terrible team?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 3:01 pm 
Guilty as charged. I know I shouldn't support them, but I do anyway. I will continue to go because I enjoy it. It's like a bad addiction. "I know I should quit smoking ...."


Last edited by Elmer on Mon Aug 04, 2008 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: What motivates you to keep watching a terrible team?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 3:23 pm 
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Good read here...

http://knowledge.wpcarey.asu.edu/articl ... cleid=1353

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 Post subject: Re: What motivates you to keep watching a terrible team?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 3:37 pm 
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bullishhitter wrote:
Here are some clips from an article explaining the true reason why you support Bob Nutting's baseball team

Quote:
Where do we get that masochistic streak that keeps thousands of us going to see our favorite teams no matter how terrible they are? Even fans of the most storied franchises have had to suffer through extended periods of losing....But through all the losing and hopelessness, a small core of us still go to the games. And we brag about it, too. In fact, I think that's one of the biggest reasons we spend $30 or $40 to see our team in person even though we know they'll probably lose. It's a small price to pay for the right to tell everyone you know that you've been going to games "since before they got good again" or "since the [insert name of horrible player] days......For a group of people who think that the only thing worse than being called a bandwagon-jumper is being called a fair-weather fan, that street cred is pretty important. Not just within your own fan base, but when you talk to fans of other teams, too.......
Regardless of the sport, the team, the reason, and the length of time that a team wallows in its own crapitude, some of us will always keep coming back no matter how many seats are left empty by fair-weather fans who have jumped to a better band in a better wagon. In the end it's not really about loyalty or bragging rights or giveaways or booing. It's about love. Illogical, self-destructive, undying love for something that doesn't always love you back


I don't think its self-destructive at all, people go to theater and spend money to watch people dance around in tights, people spend tons of money to see bands(who could care less about you the fan), so why can't we spend money watching something we truly love even though they aren't winning.

I hope BH you don't take this attitude into a marriage because I would feel sorry for that woman when you bail on her after she has a bad month.

You can post all the quotes and comments that you want, but you opinion doesn't hold any water becuase you have stated that you abandoned the team years ago, so you reall don't have a clue what kind of talent is on the field do you. Matter-of-fact, you wouldn't even know what kind of talent that we received in the Jason Bay deal because outside of you one argument(ownership) you absolutely have no idea what is actually happening down on the field. Your insight is so flawed that you labeled the dealing of Jason Bay a "salary dumping" move, when Jason's salary was very manageable for this year and next. You've glossed over the accounts of Nutting trying to establish contracts with several key players in the system to ensure that they will remain Pirates for a number of years.

Tell you the truth man, I am disappointed in your body of work, some of your postings you show glimmers of intelligence which is quickly dilluted by your childish and missinformed rants about management. Take some time, re-invest in the PBC, study the players, get a look at actually what has transpired over the last year and see the remarkable changes for the good that have occured. Come back, set aside the ridiculous chatter about Nutting and post something that has thought, meaning, and shows that you actually are a fan of the Pirates, for baseball for that matter. Insulting you is dumb, so I say this because this board is by far the most educated, respectful, and enjoyable boards that I have ever been a part of, get it together man!


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 Post subject: Re: What motivates you to keep watching a terrible team?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 4:00 pm 
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Piratefan13
As stated, I am a Pirate fan, but that does not mean I'm going to stay loyal and faithful to a business owner who has yet to show me that a good team is important. If you read that link I posted, it mentions near the bottom that some owners cater to the thrills crowd..ala fireworks and like the TV and other revenue money that make them profitable. Thats fine, you and others let love blind you from it.

I dont follow the players like I did before but trading proven players for prospects is a concept and you dont need to know the details. Prospects are unproven.....that may or may not turn into players like the ones you got rid of. Proven players do come with higher price tags, prospects dont. Nothing flawed about it. True the trade was not just a salary dump and not made just for that reason but the payroll is now lower. After 16 years, I'll wait and see proof before I go back. This is not the first rebuild job. BTW, been married 25 and a half years...thanks for the concern

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 Post subject: Re: What motivates you to keep watching a terrible team?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 4:17 pm 
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Congratulations on your marriage of 25 years, my comment was a half-hearted attempt at humor and by no means an attack of any manner.

I respect that you do not want to support the Pirates in their current state of flux, but you must admit that this rebuild has so far proved to be more organized and has more legitimacy than previous attempts. I was very happy that Nutting started the "rebuild" at the top, because continuing to rebuild the team with the same incompetant management team would have just another rebuild.

In this day of age, catering to the "collectors crowd" and gimmicks seekers is a necessary evil, one that true die hard fans like myself have to put up with, unfortunately it will never go away. I myself am the first to give my "gimmick" to a younger fan, one that would appreciate much more than I.


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 Post subject: Re: What motivates you to keep watching a terrible team?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 4:19 pm 
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There are some advantages to being AAAA. Unlike the big-market teams nowadays, we can go down to the ballpark on a nice evening any time we feel like it and know we can get tickets at reasonable prices to watch and enjoy a ballgame in a beautiful setting. The "major-league" teams that compete for the titles each year are all pretty much selling out every game and so they charge enormous prices for tickets and fans must commit to buying season tickets. I would not like that. Thus, there are serious disadvantages to being a fan in a large market, unless you are strictly a TV fan. True, even with good management, we will be lucky to be in a race once or twice a decade and the losses will usually outnumber the wins, but it's still better than AAA, AA, or A ball. Yet lots of people in minor league cities enjoy following their teams and attending games. So, accept the fact that we are technically caught between major-league and minor-league status and enjoy watching young talent develop before they move on to the big-market teams.


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 Post subject: Re: What motivates you to keep watching a terrible team?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 4:52 pm 
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Piratefan13 wrote:
but you must admit that this rebuild has so far proved to be more organized and has more legitimacy than previous attempts. I was very happy that Nutting started the "rebuild" at the top, because continuing to rebuild the team with the same incompetant management team would have just another rebuild.

In this day of age, catering to the "collectors crowd" and gimmicks seekers is a necessary evil, one that true die hard fans like myself have to put up with, unfortunately it will never go away.

This rebuild is more organized, more ligit than previous attempts? If the team wins, then thats true. If not, the new FO will be as good as the last FOs. Wont happen anytime soon. Sure all teams have the promo garbage, but thats as far as this ownerhip goes as per budgeting. All those empty seats on weeknights at PNC are not worth the risk to try and fill with a more attractive team as long as the other revenue streams without the costs and risks keep the team 15-20 in the black.

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 Post subject: Re: What motivates you to keep watching a terrible team?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 4:56 pm 
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Bathgate wrote:
So, accept the fact that we are technically caught between major-league and minor-league status and enjoy watching young talent develop before they move on to the big-market teams.
Exactly why I dont support & watch it. You'd watch the Altoona Curve players in Pirate uniforms as long as they were in Pittsburgh and called the Pirates.

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 Post subject: Re: What motivates you to keep watching a terrible team?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 5:09 pm 
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For me it's more about boredom than love. For us Bucco fans, they are just something to spend your attention on. I really think that at this point with the Pirates, how disappointed could you possibly be? If you are that let down and disappointed that means you had some kind of expectations, which at this point no reasonable people have any.

Realistically, there's no way that anybody has had a high degree of emotional investment in the Pirates for years now. It's only natural, when a team has been a loser for so long, and you know going into every season that they realistically aren't going to compete, there's just no way you invest your emotions into a team like that. You still pay attention and follow them, even if it's just out of boredom, but they are past the point where they can really affect you much.


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 Post subject: Re: What motivates you to keep watching a terrible team?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 5:38 pm 
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bullishhitter wrote:
I dont follow the players like I did before but trading proven players for prospects is a concept and you dont need to know the details. Prospects are unproven.....that may or may not turn into players like the ones you got rid of. Proven players do come with higher price tags, prospects dont. Nothing flawed about it. True the trade was not just a salary dump and not made just for that reason but the payroll is now lower. After 16 years, I'll wait and see proof before I go back.

Keeping players beyond their expiration date is also not a way to run a ballclub, and yet that's exactly what this team would have done if we held on to Bay and Nady while waiting for the rest of the team to catch up.

You can deride the concept of trading established players for unproven, high-ceiling prospects all you want, but it has a track-record of being successful. The Cleveland Indians, Minnesota Twins, Florida Marlins, Atlanta Braves, and Oakland A's are existing proof of the merits of this method. And as far as I see, it's the only feasible way for the Pirates to climb out of this hole.

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 Post subject: Re: What motivates you to keep watching a terrible team?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 6:03 pm 
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The Nady trade I can live with, the Bay trade I am not so crazy about. I know they are hitting the cover off the ball in NY and Boston, but they were here, too. I fear they did what they always do.....trade their best for a bunch of guys that will be spread from State College to Hickory to Altoona to Indianapolis, never to be heard from again. Their history says it will happen. I hope I'm wrong this time....I'm rooting for myself to be wrong.

In the meantime....I will continue to be a Bucco fan, through and through. I have loved them since 1960, watched the good times and a whole lot more bad times. But, they are my guys, and represent me. They have a lot of guys who represent themselves and PBC well, no jerks like Manny and others that seem to populate big time sports.

This offense this year was exciting and fun to watch. I'm going to miss it.


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 Post subject: Re: What motivates you to keep watching a terrible team?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 6:05 pm 
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Willton wrote:

You can deride the concept of trading established players for unproven, high-ceiling prospects all you want, but it has a track-record of being successful. The Cleveland Indians, Minnesota Twins, Florida Marlins, Atlanta Braves, and Oakland A's are existing proof of the merits of this method. And as far as I see, it's the only feasible way for the Pirates to climb out of this hole.


I think more important though and what separates the Pirates from more successful small market teams is great drafting and development of the young talent that we do have. Not only do the Pirates not spend money but their drafting and development have been absolutely horrendous, which is a double whammy and the recipe for constant losing. I think only when that aspect gets turned around will the Pirates fortunes do the same. When it comes to building up a solid, deep minor league system which the Pirates lack right now, that is done through good drafting and development, not trades. Trading guys who you will lose is a way to supplement your talent pool, not build it from scratch.


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 Post subject: Re: What motivates you to keep watching a terrible team?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 6:19 pm 
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Steve1118 wrote:
The Nady trade I can live with, the Bay trade I am not so crazy about. I know they are hitting the cover off the ball in NY and Boston, but they were here, too. I fear they did what they always do.....trade their best for a bunch of guys that will be spread from State College to Hickory to Altoona to Indianapolis, never to be heard from again.


Steve:

All Pirate fans fear that the players obtained will not be as good as we hope. But you seem to forget (or dismiss) the fact that Jason Bay and Oliver Perez - two "potential" guys - were obtained for a known commodity, Brian Giles.

Then, Oliver Perez - after a masterful 2004 followed by 1 1/2 horrid seasons - and a washed up Roberto Hernandez were traded for Xavier Nady.

In other words, trading established players for players with an "upside" was the way the Pirates got Nady and Bay. So, it is a bit ironic to lament trading those guys (plus another known commodity, Marte) for 8 players with "upside."


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 Post subject: Re: What motivates you to keep watching a terrible team?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 6:26 pm 
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bullishhitter wrote:
Prospects are unproven.....that may or may not turn into players like the ones you got rid of. Proven players do come with higher price tags, prospects dont.


Every major league player - EVERY FREAKING ONE, WITHOUT EXCEPTION - was at some point a "prospect" and unproven.

For heaven's sake, the Pirates obtained Roberto Clemente as a "prospect" from the Dodgers.

Or do you forget that?


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 Post subject: Re: What motivates you to keep watching a terrible team?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 7:11 pm 
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I go to a lot less than I would if they'd start winning. I go to 5 or 6 a year, but half of those are free through various connections. I go because even though they stink, I still like baseball and it is a good chance to see some of today's great players play in person (Pujols, Fielder, Jeter, Berkman, Hafner to name a few).

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 Post subject: Re: What motivates you to keep watching a terrible team?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 8:09 pm 
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I watch because I like the game.

I will post later on tonight about why I am going to tonights d backs Bucs game.

Quite frankly I resent you telling me why I watch the team.

The tone of your post(s) would seem to indicate that you are of a higher intellect than some one who watches the games, such as myself.

Your opinion about why I watch the game is wrong. Sorry, one size does not fit all.


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 Post subject: Re: What motivates you to keep watching a terrible team?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 8:38 pm 
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Az., Have fun "enabling" tonight. Please favor us with a game report upon your return.

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 Post subject: Re: What motivates you to keep watching a terrible team?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 8:48 pm 
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I'll see what I can do.


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 Post subject: Re: What motivates you to keep watching a terrible team?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 9:43 am 
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As usual a thread gets off track.
Take the time to read this article. It explains the "love" fans have and that feeling of wanting to belong, to be part of the tribe. But it also mentions how many owners dont care about the loyal loving emotional fans as long as the league is doing OK, because they will reap the residual rewards from the league. It is exactly what the Pirate ownership is doing, how you as a loyal fan are being duped.

Read it, if you think it has flaws name them. I think its true as can be

http://knowledge.wpcarey.asu.edu/articl ... cleid=1353

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