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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 1:58 pm 
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You couldnt get rid of everyone, you still need some sort of assessment and people with some experience in the front office to help handle the transition...just because your boss is bad, doesnt mean you are...if your boss tells you (X) is your job...you do (X)...

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 2:03 pm 
I agree. You can't get rid of everyone. But they didn't get rid of ANY GM Special Assistants etc. I don't think that's good.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 2:07 pm 
Piratefan13 wrote:
Elmer wrote:
Piratefan13 wrote:
What you fail to see BH is that Nutting witnessed the decline of this once great tradition and finally decided to remove all layers below him and try and return this culture back to its rich tradition himself.


Not totally true Piratefan13. He removed the GM, President and Scouting director. Basically the layer immediately beneath him. He kept virtually all the scouts and GM assistants.


Elmer, how do you know that some of those guys aren't quality guys? Even so, if they don't fullfill their duties, we will probably see some more of NH's "guys" over the next few years. I don't think you need to get to concerned with that.


I don't know if they are quality guys or not and my guess is you don't either. What we do know is that the team has been horrible and these guys were part of the scouting process that got us to horrible, so I'm just looking at the evidence.

Also, if they're going to keep so many of the old scouts, etc., they need to stop with the "changing the culture of losing" propaganda because so many parts that made up that culture remain. Not the high profile parts, but the hands-on scouting parts which, to me, is just as much of a concern.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 2:09 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
I agree. You can't get rid of everyone. But they didn't get rid of ANY GM Special Assistants etc. I don't think that's good.


Yes but he brought in Chuck Tanner as a Senior Adviser to the GM

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I say keep the $50 and ban him anyway...

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 2:11 pm 
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nad69dan wrote:
Elmer wrote:
I agree. You can't get rid of everyone. But they didn't get rid of ANY GM Special Assistants etc. I don't think that's good.


Yes but he brought in Chuck Tanner as a Senior Adviser to the GM


As well as that guy from the Twinkies...Corrigan???...who is widely respected in the league. I recall reading something about NH leaning on that guy more than any other advisor. Just because they didn't make massive changes doesn't mean the important changes weren't made.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 2:15 pm 
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None of us know whether they are good or not and dumping them for the sake of dumping them does not make sense...

The scouts last year made the recommendation to go with Wieters, and DL did not listen to them and went with Moskos instead...

Who knows if these draft moves happened prior, but like I said you cant get rid of everyone...once some more time settles in, moves will be made if these assistants aren't doing their jobs...

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 2:17 pm 
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Quote:
Mickey White joined the Pirates as their scouting director in 1998, had his first draft in 1999, and picked Sean Burnett in the first round. Over the next three years, Mickey’s drafts were considered some of the best in organizational history.


I wonder if any of them are holdovers from Mickey White's tenure. Would be really nice.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 2:20 pm 
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When David Littlefield was hired as the Pirates GM in 2001, he took over a farm system that was ranked 19th best by BA. Littlefield began retooling his front office and hired Ed Creech as Scouting Director and Brian Graham as Director of Player Development.

Despite the fact Graham had only one year of MLB front office management experience, Graham took over a system that wasn’t “rated highly by national baseball publications and the
Quote:
organization's best young players [were] in the lower minors.” In the ‘lower minors’ meaning, White’s drafts were starting to make an impact.

The 2002 draft was a bag of mixed nuts. Scouting Director Mickey White, who had been demoted to a scout by Littlefield when Creech was hired, had BJ Upton on the draft board as the Pirates first round pick, seeminly with Littlefield’s approval. Ed Creech decided that the Pirates couldn’t wait five years for Upton and drafted Bryan Bullington instead. Creech was quoted as saying:

"Honestly, this was a little more difficult than I had anticipated."

Mickey White promptly resigned.


This gives us proof that advisors or scouts want to draft one way and scouting directors blow them off. This could have been the case last year.

More from the article.

Whole article here http://buccoblog.mlblogs.com/archives/2006/02/farm_aid.html

I know its BuccoBlog(not the most authoritative blog but nonetheless)


Last edited by Piratefan13 on Thu May 08, 2008 4:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 3:53 pm 
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BBF wrote:
nad69dan wrote:
Elmer wrote:
I agree. You can't get rid of everyone. But they didn't get rid of ANY GM Special Assistants etc. I don't think that's good.


Yes but he brought in Chuck Tanner as a Senior Adviser to the GM


As well as that guy from the Twinkies...Corrigan???...who is widely respected in the league. I recall reading something about NH leaning on that guy more than any other advisor. Just because they didn't make massive changes doesn't mean the important changes weren't made.

Don't forget the most recent addition: Dan Fox as Director of Baseball Systems Development.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 8:17 pm 
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You know what I hate about these articles, though. I hate that they always rank the Minnesota Twins as one of the worst franchises. Yeah, their owner is a royal cheapskate, and they never keep anyone once they reach free agency age, but at least they win consistently. I only wish the Pirates could suck like that. Certainly there could have been another choice for their spot (The Buffalo Bills maybe? possibly the Chicago Blackhawks?)

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 12:53 pm 
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Welfare_Fraud wrote:
You know what I hate about these articles, though. I hate that they always rank the Minnesota Twins as one of the worst franchises. Yeah, their owner is a royal cheapskate, and they never keep anyone once they reach free agency age, but at least they win consistently. I only wish the Pirates could suck like that. Certainly there could have been another choice for their spot (The Buffalo Bills maybe? possibly the Chicago Blackhawks?)


The Bills as one of the top 10 worst sports franchises? Not even close.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 2:29 pm 
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Quote:
Morris explained again

The question has risen anew in the aftermath of the Pirates' release of Matt Morris: How could owner Bob Nutting approve Dave Littlefield's acquisition?

A rehash ...

Littlefield approached his San Francisco counterpart, general manager Brian Sabean, on the morning of the 3 p.m. trade deadline July 31 of last year, and offered to take Morris' full contract. The Giants asked for little in return and agreed to take outfielder Rajai Davis.

From there, Littlefield and a few of his baseball people rushed to Nutting for approval, given that the Pirates would have to assume $14 million. The rationale presented was twofold:

1. Nutting had given a green light earlier in the year for Littlefield to offer free-agent starter Jeff Suppan a two-year contract at his going rate, which, like Morris, was $10 million annually. The Milwaukee Brewers ended up giving Suppan that salary over four years. So, the argument to Nutting went, here is a pitcher better than Suppan -- few could dispute that, even though Morris had begun to decline with the Giants -- and for much less guaranteed money.

2. The Pirates would not be parting with significant prospects.

On the day Nutting fired Littlefield, he was asked repeatedly about approving the Morris deal and, choosing not to bury Littlefield in public, limited his answers to this: "I have to trust my baseball people. That was the move Dave wanted to make."

According to some close to Nutting, his feeling was that, if he could not trust Littlefield, he should fire him immediately. At that point, he was not prepared to do so.

It was only later, after conferring with other top baseball executives, which Nutting concedes he did too late, that he realized the folly of the trade.

That also was a prime motivation for Nutting to hire as team president Frank Coonelly, someone steeped in knowledge of the business of Major League Baseball, to make such authorizations in the future.


Here is an explaination of why Nutting approved the trade. Seems like Nutting isn't quite the evil penny pincher.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 5:41 pm 
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Where did you find that, PF13?

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2008 7:59 am 
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From the Post-Gazette I think. I basically stumbled upon it. I think its somewhere in the finance section. When I get back to work on Monday, I will look it up and get a link to it.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2008 12:16 pm 
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MrSmiff wrote:
Welfare_Fraud wrote:
You know what I hate about these articles, though. I hate that they always rank the Minnesota Twins as one of the worst franchises. Yeah, their owner is a royal cheapskate, and they never keep anyone once they reach free agency age, but at least they win consistently. I only wish the Pirates could suck like that. Certainly there could have been another choice for their spot (The Buffalo Bills maybe? possibly the Chicago Blackhawks?)


The Bills as one of the top 10 worst sports franchises? Not even close.



Lately? I think they are. They haven't made the playoffs in 8 years, in a league where over 1/3 of the teams make it every year. Their free agent moves make no sense, and I feel they are gearing up to move, either to Toronto or Los Angeles.

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Formerly "The_Tracy_Turnaround"


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2008 1:23 pm 
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Welfare_Fraud wrote:
MrSmiff wrote:
Welfare_Fraud wrote:
You know what I hate about these articles, though. I hate that they always rank the Minnesota Twins as one of the worst franchises. Yeah, their owner is a royal cheapskate, and they never keep anyone once they reach free agency age, but at least they win consistently. I only wish the Pirates could suck like that. Certainly there could have been another choice for their spot (The Buffalo Bills maybe? possibly the Chicago Blackhawks?)


The Bills as one of the top 10 worst sports franchises? Not even close.



Lately? I think they are. They haven't made the playoffs in 8 years, in a league where over 1/3 of the teams make it every year. Their free agent moves make no sense, and I feel they are gearing up to move, either to Toronto or Los Angeles.


Whether or not the Pirates are the worst pro franchise, I'm not sure. There are sound arguments both ways. But I would say being a fan of the Pirates is more frustrating than being a fan of most other teams.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 10:44 am 
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Welfare_Fraud wrote:
MrSmiff wrote:
Welfare_Fraud wrote:
You know what I hate about these articles, though. I hate that they always rank the Minnesota Twins as one of the worst franchises. Yeah, their owner is a royal cheapskate, and they never keep anyone once they reach free agency age, but at least they win consistently. I only wish the Pirates could suck like that. Certainly there could have been another choice for their spot (The Buffalo Bills maybe? possibly the Chicago Blackhawks?)


The Bills as one of the top 10 worst sports franchises? Not even close.



Lately? I think they are. They haven't made the playoffs in 8 years, in a league where over 1/3 of the teams make it every year. Their free agent moves make no sense, and I feel they are gearing up to move, either to Toronto or Los Angeles.


Marcus Stroud, Spencer Johnson, Super Bowl Champion Kimika Mitchell, Derrick Dockery, Langston Walker.... These make perfect sense to me.

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