Proud fans of a 128-year old tradition

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 1:32 pm 
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This board has as its strap-line "Proud fans of a 121-year old tradition".

So the board is designed to cater for those who sees themselves as such. You obviously don't - so why are you always on it, posting the same-old, same-old?

We get it.
We aren't stupid (maybe a little mad, but not stupid. BBF is not even really an "idiot").

Your constant harping on the same derogatory theme is troll-like.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 2:17 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
The 97 Pirates are one of my favorite Bucco teams ever! I'm all about being efficient with your money, but I think it's silly to use that team as an example of how to do things. "The Freak Show" was great, but certainly an exception to the rule.

I don't see how any real Pirates fan can defend the lack of spending. (I'm not talking about spending stupidly, they are two different things).

Are there any other businesses besides baseball clubs that you think are obligated to lose money?

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 2:19 pm 
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bullishhitter wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
Ironic that you keep harping that their failure to spend is the problem when the best team they've had in 15 years had a payroll of $9M, isn't it?


I've never said the Pirates need to spend like a NY team. However they should be near the teams in their division.
Being at or near the bottom of payroll and in the standings for the most part(yes there are some exceptions)go hand in hand.
The Pirates are bad from the major league team down through the minors. I have stated that they need to trade away whatever talent they have on the major league roster for young prospects. I agree with the build from within type of plan. Problem is by all accounts there is not much to build from. The only thing that has taken place is a new FO, which has done nothing as per any type of improvement. All you hear about is accountability. Who makes ownership accountable? I never get an answer to the question.

Who makes ownership accountable? Why, you do, of course, and fans who think like you. You don't seem to be doing a very good job, though. Perhaps we should be holding you guys accountable.

LOL.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 2:22 pm 
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bullishhitter wrote:
Piratefan13 wrote:
Ok hero... stop going to games, petition the entire region to boycott the games. The joker will just fold up the franchise and take it elswhere. Then where will we be at? I love baseball and I love the Pirates, your damn right I am going to keep watching, keep supporting my team. See, you don't have that kind of love of the game, and it shows.


The joker will not move the team, nor will a new owner if the joker sells the team. The PNC lease prohibits it. It would cost a large sum of money to leave. If you love baseball you can watch a baseball game almost anywhere. As stated you love the Pirates and blinded by that love

The lease for Three Rivers Stadium also prohibited the Pirates from leaving. That lease is due to expire in two more years. Where is Three Rivers Stadium?

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 3:21 pm 
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This is my final comment to all of this. Bertie mentioned 121 years of tradition, being a fan of this organization has been spectacular, I am proud to be associated with the Pirates. We have a rich history(personally watched the 1979 WS), a blue collar work ethic, a family atmosphere. Those attributes combined for my passion for the game make me what they call a diehard Pirates fan. Call me names, ridicule me for supporting a team year in and year out regardless of the outcome, tell me how terrible my team is from top to bottom(I may agree on some occasions), but at the end of the day, its a Pirate cap that adorns my head, and nothing else. Its always easy to separate passionate baseball fans from the casual observers, and its simple here to see that BH is just a casual observer(as he stated himself), maybe he is part of the "now" generation that believes that things need to happen now, for him. What all of us fans really know deep in our hearts about this team is that we are a few good years away from contending, there needs to be time to rebuild the organization from the draft. Sure, I want to see them succeed now, I sit in front of my TV and sometimes try to "will" them to get a hit, we have all been there. But most of us know the shape of the organization and the destruction that Cam Bonifay and David Littlefield have caused. For the guys that insist that money being spent would have made us winners, I have yet to hear where that money was to be spent and on who. Just look at Jaques Jones in Detroit, he was just sent down, Miguel Cabrera the great hitter he is, is barely a firstbasemen. Barry Zito came to SF with big expectations and an even larger salary, did anyone see that coming? Free agency is unreliable and an unrealistic avenue for building a championship caliber team, it is although a good way to get a final piece, a player to push a team over the top. The Pirates are very far from that scenerio. I said this before and I will say it again, I am GLAD Nutting did not spend money this winter. Save the money for when the time is right, when we need it. Not for the Johnny Estradas of the world. Your blaming of Nutting holds no water and is baseless.

This board is the finest I have been involved in. There is geniune respect, orderly conduct, and most importantly, very intelligent and passionate fans. BH, I don't mind you posting and commenting, but what is it that excites you about spinning us up? Very childish, actually somewhat sad, you seem like an intelligent fellow, but yet you contend that intelligence with every post. Sure we are all frustrated and upset about 15 years of losing, it wasn't always that pretty from 1980 to 1990, how about the 57-104 campaign in 1985, they cycled out of it then and I believe that they can cycle out of it again.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 3:49 pm 
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I became a Pirate fan as a young boy and will remain so until I die. It doesn't matter how many years in a row they lose, or how inept their management is, was, or will be.

I always follow and root for the team, I always have hope for the future, and I wear my Pirates gear with pride.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 3:55 pm 
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Piratefan13

I wear no hat of another team. Sure there is a long proud tradition. How proud will you be when this team is the longest losing team of all sports? The Nutting family has been the major source of money as an investor since 1996. Losing for this long has not been about bad luck and poor choices. The GMs have had their hands tied because of the profit first before winning. The new GM has said the profits are used to pay debt? That is indirectly putting money into your pockets.

I can understand being loyal...but its a two way street. If you can not see that after the ownership said the new park would make the team competitive, and ownerships actions have shown otherwise and the results speak for themself, you're blinded by love.

Sing along to this old Mo Town tune by the Supremes

Love, love, love makes me do foolish things
Sitting on by the phone, a phone that never rings
Hoping to hear you say you love me still
Knowing you never will.

Love, love, love has made a fool of me
Got me doing things, things that shouldn't be
Listening for the sound of your knock on my door
Knowing that sweet sound would be no more.

Funny how precious memories linger on
So long after you’re gone
Oooh, precious memories that all makes me cry
But I keep holding on, oh why should I?

All because love, love, love has made a fool of me
Speak your name softly each night
While holding your picture tight
When you took my heart, you took my soul
And it's far beyond control.

Funny how precious memories linger on
So long, long after you're gone
Oh, precious memories that all makes me cry
But I keep holding on, oh why should I?

All because love, love, love makes me do these things
Love, love, love, love has made a fool of me
Love, love, love makes me do foolish things.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 4:14 pm 
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are you trying to serenade me BH? :shock:


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 4:22 pm 
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Piratefan13 wrote:
are you trying to serenade me BH? :shock:


Trying to get a little humor going :D

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 4:43 pm 
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Bertie wrote:
BBF is not even really an "idiot").

.


Mrs. BBF disagrees.

-BBF-

PS. BBF's coworkers also disagree.

PPS. BBF's friends disagree as well.

PPPS. BBF's parents strongly disagree.

PPPPS. Elmer disagrees too. Thererfore, Mayor Mystery disagrees.

PPPPPS. Googlebot disagrees.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 4:47 pm 
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Damn BBF, and I held you in such high regard... Mrs. BBF thinks your an idiot? Then it must be so because women are always right(or so they believe).


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 4:48 pm 
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Piratefan13 wrote:
Damn BBF, and I held you in such high regard... Mrs. BBF thinks your an idiot? Then it must be so because women are always right(or so they believe).


Actually, that's the nicest thing she has said to me in the past month :lol: :P ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 5:48 pm 
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BBF wrote:
Piratefan13 wrote:
Damn BBF, and I held you in such high regard... Mrs. BBF thinks your an idiot? Then it must be so because women are always right(or so they believe).


Actually, that's the nicest thing she has said to me in the past month :lol: :P ;)

At least she said something to you in the past month...

;-)

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 12:03 am 
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BBF wrote:
Hey Piratefan:

Just so you know, he is baiting you into this argument. He has heard at least 10 times from 10 different people how his argument is simply illogical, and instead of showing us how he is right and we are wrong (because I suspect that he can't), he simply repeats the argument. Then when people tell him they are sick of how repetitive the argument it, he will say something about how repetitive 15 losing seasons are. Then people get sick of him and ignore him, and he sits in waiting for a new person to come along and repeat the whole damn process.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 10:22 am 
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Bertie wrote:
This board has as its strap-line "Proud fans of a 121-year old tradition".

So the board is designed to cater for those who sees themselves as such. You obviously don't - so why are you always on it, posting the same-old, same-old?


I totally agree with the sentiments about the Bucs not being the worst team in pro sports...if you look at the history. But the first paragraph says "Here is a list of the 10 worst sports franchises CURRENTLY in operation. Clearly, they are by far the worst organizatin in sports as we speak. If you're looking historically, they are nowhere close. The Pirates are one of the proud all-time organizations in MLB. But as of this moment, they're a pathetic laughinstock with not even the slightest hint of improving. Based on how they are doing their rankings they are absolutely the worst.
How can anyone say they are proud to be a fan of the Pirates the past 15 years? If your kid has bad grades, gets in trouble you're not going to be proud, but he is still your kid. The Pirates are still the only team I've ever been a fan of. This is a message board....people voice their ideas, opinions. Who should bat 5th, why didnt so & so pinch hit and all the other topics....what makes one more relevant than the other? Sure most of what my posts in this section(Rontunda) are the same-old same old. Why? Since 1993 its been the same-old, same old and its became crystal clear since PNC opened that nothing with my team(my kid who fails year after year)has no intention and has shown no action to improve their ways to return to make one be proud.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 11:41 am 
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What you fail to see BH is that Nutting witnessed the decline of this once great tradition and finally decided to remove all layers below him and try and return this culture back to its rich tradition himself. What more would you like the guy to do? He forced out McClatchy, had Littlefield and Tracy removed along with 3/4 of the organizations upper management. Encouraged full scale changes to PBC operations. While you sit here and bash him, he is trying to do the very thing you are clamoring about. Sorry my friend that it doesn't happen in a snap. Rome wasn't built in a day. And don't give me this crap about him being involved for years, you know thats a load of crap. Nutting established himself before the 2007 season, indicating that he was going to do an analysis of the organization. What he seen of 2007 he did not like, then subsequently made wholesale changes. Sure on this board posts are equally important as another but what people are sick of on here are the baseless rants of yourself and a few others on the same issue, without proof or validation. Additionally, you never provide a solution or your own blueprint for the success of the team. In any arena, complaints are disregarded if there isn't first, credibility and second, a well thought out solution idea. THAT is what causes people to ignore you, because with each post, your credibility(whatever is left), fades. You may think that is cool or you feel like some kind of rebel, but honestly, its childish. Now from some of your posts, I believe that you are an educated man, one that can provide insight and thoughtful approaches to certain topics, so why the antics. If this is the way you want to continue, thats fine, but there are only a select few of us that still entertain you and that number is dwindling. I would cetainly give creedence to your argument against Nutting if you come up with sound evidence proving that his is doing something unique to virtually every owner in baseball, or if you have an effective idea on how he and the rest of management could have improved the club, on the field, this year. Otherwise its a dead topic, move on, lets talk about something different.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 12:53 pm 
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Piratefan13 wrote:
What you fail to see BH is that Nutting witnessed the decline of this once great tradition and finally decided to remove all layers below him and try and return this culture back to its rich tradition himself. What more would you like the guy to do? He forced out McClatchy, had Littlefield and Tracy removed along with 3/4 of the organizations upper management. Encouraged full scale changes to PBC operations. While you sit here and bash him, he is trying to do the very thing you are clamoring about. Sorry my friend that it doesn't happen in a snap. Rome wasn't built in a day. And don't give me this crap about him being involved for years, you know thats a load of crap. Nutting established himself before the 2007 season, indicating that he was going to do an analysis of the organization. What he seen of 2007 he did not like, then subsequently made wholesale changes. Sure on this board posts are equally important as another but what people are sick of on here are the baseless rants of yourself and a few others on the same issue, without proof or validation. Additionally, you never provide a solution or your own blueprint for the success of the team. In any arena, complaints are disregarded if there isn't first, credibility and second, a well thought out solution idea. THAT is what causes people to ignore you, because with each post, your credibility(whatever is left), fades. You may think that is cool or you feel like some kind of rebel, but honestly, its childish. Now from some of your posts, I believe that you are an educated man, one that can provide insight and thoughtful approaches to certain topics, so why the antics. If this is the way you want to continue, thats fine, but there are only a select few of us that still entertain you and that number is dwindling. I would cetainly give creedence to your argument against Nutting if you come up with sound evidence proving that his is doing something unique to virtually every owner in baseball, or if you have an effective idea on how he and the rest of management could have improved the club, on the field, this year. Otherwise its a dead topic, move on, lets talk about something different.


OK to address the questions and issues you've mentioned: The whole organization is a mess void of talent from top to bottom and I would trade as many players on the roster who wont be here 2 to 3 years from now for young prospects and stop drafting the "right" player for the Pirates and draft the best player regardless of the cost to sign them. That solution is drastic and the team for sure will suck, but as of right now what is the difference? Clean House. That means the players.
As per Nutting is concerned, since 1996, his or his Dad's money has been the main influence on the limitations on player salary and keeping them at or near the bottom of payroll which for the most part goes hand in hand with losing. Layers below changed? Maybe the front office, but the players for the most part are the same.....and they are as a whole, proven losers. Meanwhile as the team sucks along, Nutting makes a yearly 15-20 million dollar profit....giving you a pathetic team that you say you love. And the new prez says the profit is paying off debt. The end result of that is in his pockets. You fail to see what the Nutting family's influence on this team has been. McClatchy was the front man and his hands were tied along with past GMs and managers. See a follow up post in the other sports section Steelers Draft about being a proud fan. Again people are sick of my rants, so they ignore. Are you not sick of how this once proud team and tradition has been made into a pathetic laughing stock?

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 1:59 pm 
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Now there you go, you have a thought out solution. In theory, "selling off" your top talent at this level is a way to stockpile talent in the organization. But there are those here that refute that by saying that the ownership should try and win every year. But how? Our team lacks sufficient talent throughout the organization that leaves us without any other recourse but to trade away our top tier guys. But, Bay, Nady, and others were all coming off questionable, in some cases terrible years. NH wasn't in the position to get any type of return that was desireable. Now I certainly agree with you that guys are going to have to be traded this year, but at the right time. Sort of like Real Estate Investing. Back to trying to win every year, our team is in no position to suceed at both trying to win and stockpiling talent at the same time, its either one or the other. You choose stockpiling, so do I, and I am sure many others will agree as well.

As far as the 15-20M profit, I find that to be an unbelieveable sum of money for this club to "clear", especially when this team is only 7-10 years away from almost being the Carolina Pirates. I am not sure where this information is coming from, but I really find it hard to believe. The only thing I have read over the past 10 years was that the pirates cleared 5M(don't remember what year) and did not place it into anything baseball related. I did actually write the Post-gazette with complaints that this money(supposedly from revenue sharing) was to be put back into the PBC not into anyones pocket. I am a strong proponent of any moneys received through revenue sharing must be pumped into the ballclub with no exceptions. The whole idea of revenue sharing is to enhance the game by bringing competition a little closer.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 10:42 am 
Piratefan13 wrote:
What you fail to see BH is that Nutting witnessed the decline of this once great tradition and finally decided to remove all layers below him and try and return this culture back to its rich tradition himself.


Not totally true Piratefan13. He removed the GM, President and Scouting director. Basically the layer immediately beneath him. He kept virtually all the scouts and GM assistants.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 1:54 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
Piratefan13 wrote:
What you fail to see BH is that Nutting witnessed the decline of this once great tradition and finally decided to remove all layers below him and try and return this culture back to its rich tradition himself.


Not totally true Piratefan13. He removed the GM, President and Scouting director. Basically the layer immediately beneath him. He kept virtually all the scouts and GM assistants.


Elmer, how do you know that some of those guys aren't quality guys? Even so, if they don't fullfill their duties, we will probably see some more of NH's "guys" over the next few years. I don't think you need to get to concerned with that.


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