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 Post subject: Joe Sheehan: Pirates Win at the Deadline
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:57 am 
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It was not a bad week in Pittsburgh, maybe their best since either the tail end of the 1997 season or October of '92. If Neal Huntington didn't score the kind of booty that Jon Daniels did a year ago, he took a number of steps forward with an organization unfamiliar with the direction.

LaRoche, the prize here, should step in immediately and be an above-average hitter at third base. LaRoche becomes the best truly young player the Pirates have, and with Andrew McCutchen on his way up and Pedro Alvarez entering the system, you can see what might comprise a championship-caliber core in three or four years. The Pirates now have players who may become stars, and stars win championships.

...

It may be hard to understand that a team could trade Manny Ramirez for Jason Bay and win, while at the same time another team trades Jason Bay for Andy LaRoche and wins, but this is baseball in the modern era: the time you have left to control a player is extremely important, and can actually almost override the talent considerations. Five-plus years of LaRoche is a better option than one-plus years of Bay, which is a better option than two months of Manny Ramirez with an option on future services. The Pirates win, and unlike with the other two teams, my opinion of their work here is unchanged.


http://www.baseballprospectus.com/artic ... cleid=7889

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 Post subject: Re: Joe Sheehan: Pirates Win at the Deadline
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:04 pm 
Willton wrote:
Quote:
It was not a bad week in Pittsburgh, maybe their best since either the tail end of the 1997 season or October of '92. If Neal Huntington didn't score the kind of booty that Jon Daniels did a year ago, he took a number of steps forward with an organization unfamiliar with the direction.

LaRoche, the prize here, should step in immediately and be an above-average hitter at third base. LaRoche becomes the best truly young player the Pirates have, and with Andrew McCutchen on his way up and Pedro Alvarez entering the system, you can see what might comprise a championship-caliber core in three or four years. The Pirates now have players who may become stars, and stars win championships.

...

It may be hard to understand that a team could trade Manny Ramirez for Jason Bay and win, while at the same time another team trades Jason Bay for Andy LaRoche and wins, but this is baseball in the modern era: the time you have left to control a player is extremely important, and can actually almost override the talent considerations. Five-plus years of LaRoche is a better option than one-plus years of Bay, which is a better option than two months of Manny Ramirez with an option on future services. The Pirates win, and unlike with the other two teams, my opinion of their work here is unchanged.


http://www.baseballprospectus.com/artic ... cleid=7889


Cool. I agree totally. I'm curious why you are pointing to the BP experts who like this trade, but sweeping Kevin Goldstein's criticism of the Nady trade under the rug.

Selective objectivity?


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 Post subject: Re: Joe Sheehan: Pirates Win at the Deadline
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 1:13 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
Willton wrote:
Quote:
It was not a bad week in Pittsburgh, maybe their best since either the tail end of the 1997 season or October of '92. If Neal Huntington didn't score the kind of booty that Jon Daniels did a year ago, he took a number of steps forward with an organization unfamiliar with the direction.

LaRoche, the prize here, should step in immediately and be an above-average hitter at third base. LaRoche becomes the best truly young player the Pirates have, and with Andrew McCutchen on his way up and Pedro Alvarez entering the system, you can see what might comprise a championship-caliber core in three or four years. The Pirates now have players who may become stars, and stars win championships.

...

It may be hard to understand that a team could trade Manny Ramirez for Jason Bay and win, while at the same time another team trades Jason Bay for Andy LaRoche and wins, but this is baseball in the modern era: the time you have left to control a player is extremely important, and can actually almost override the talent considerations. Five-plus years of LaRoche is a better option than one-plus years of Bay, which is a better option than two months of Manny Ramirez with an option on future services. The Pirates win, and unlike with the other two teams, my opinion of their work here is unchanged.


http://www.baseballprospectus.com/artic ... cleid=7889


Cool. I agree totally. I'm curious why you are pointing to the BP experts who like this trade, but sweeping Kevin Goldstein's criticism of the Nady trade under the rug.

Selective objectivity?

Did you see me do such a thing? I'm pretty sure I did not even comment on Goldstein's analysis of the Nady trade.

Further, Sheehan is not really an expert - he's more of an opinion writer. He's not a scout like Goldstein, and while he's no slouch when it comes to statistics, he's not a statistic expert like Nate Silver. But his analysis and opinions, in my view, are usually pretty sound, and he certainly has more expertise in baseball analysis than your Smiziks, Colliers, and Starkeys.

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 Post subject: Re: Joe Sheehan: Pirates Win at the Deadline
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 3:29 pm 
Willton wrote:
Did you see me do such a thing? I'm pretty sure I did not even comment on Goldstein's analysis of the Nady trade.

Further, Sheehan is not really an expert - he's more of an opinion writer. He's not a scout like Goldstein, and while he's no slouch when it comes to statistics, he's not a statistic expert like Nate Silver. But his analysis and opinions, in my view, are usually pretty sound, and he certainly has more expertise in baseball analysis than your Smiziks, Colliers, and Starkeys.


So no comment re Goldstein (when he opposed NH) but posting Sheehan (when he praised NH). I'd call that sweeping it under the rug. Selective objectivity.


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 Post subject: Re: Joe Sheehan: Pirates Win at the Deadline
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:16 pm 
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Glad to see some real indepth stuff and objective opinion and analysis...the boys at ESPN (Endless Sawks Propaganda Noise), generally take a subjective viewpoint...except for Tim Kurjgem, who is the best reporter, storyteller and writer they got...

Gammons on the other hand while being a Hall Of Famer has slipped badly and lost all creditability with me . That happened when I interviewed him back in my sportstalk radio days in Charlotte when he came on one day and loudly proclaimed, "Charlotte is the frontrunner to get the Montreal Expos or Minnesota Twins !"...

Whatever makes him and the rest look good ! ...

Really who cares what other talking heads think?...same thing with Baseball America...I've been sitting in minor league press boxes for almost 20 years and I can count the number of times I've seen someone from BA on one hand...


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 Post subject: Re: Joe Sheehan: Pirates Win at the Deadline
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:52 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
Willton wrote:
Did you see me do such a thing? I'm pretty sure I did not even comment on Goldstein's analysis of the Nady trade.

Further, Sheehan is not really an expert - he's more of an opinion writer. He's not a scout like Goldstein, and while he's no slouch when it comes to statistics, he's not a statistic expert like Nate Silver. But his analysis and opinions, in my view, are usually pretty sound, and he certainly has more expertise in baseball analysis than your Smiziks, Colliers, and Starkeys.


So no comment re Goldstein (when he opposed NH) but posting Sheehan (when he praised NH). I'd call that sweeping it under the rug. Selective objectivity.

Do I have to comment on everything? What if I didn't feel like it because it had been done to death?

Besides, Goldstein did not comment on the Nady/Marte trade at BP, so I'm not sure how I could comment on his analysis, whatever that may be.

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"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."
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 Post subject: Re: Joe Sheehan: Pirates Win at the Deadline
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 7:40 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
Willton wrote:
Quote:
It was not a bad week in Pittsburgh, maybe their best since either the tail end of the 1997 season or October of '92. If Neal Huntington didn't score the kind of booty that Jon Daniels did a year ago, he took a number of steps forward with an organization unfamiliar with the direction.

LaRoche, the prize here, should step in immediately and be an above-average hitter at third base. LaRoche becomes the best truly young player the Pirates have, and with Andrew McCutchen on his way up and Pedro Alvarez entering the system, you can see what might comprise a championship-caliber core in three or four years. The Pirates now have players who may become stars, and stars win championships.

...

It may be hard to understand that a team could trade Manny Ramirez for Jason Bay and win, while at the same time another team trades Jason Bay for Andy LaRoche and wins, but this is baseball in the modern era: the time you have left to control a player is extremely important, and can actually almost override the talent considerations. Five-plus years of LaRoche is a better option than one-plus years of Bay, which is a better option than two months of Manny Ramirez with an option on future services. The Pirates win, and unlike with the other two teams, my opinion of their work here is unchanged.


http://www.baseballprospectus.com/artic ... cleid=7889


Cool. I agree totally. I'm curious why you are pointing to the BP experts who like this trade, but sweeping Kevin Goldstein's criticism of the Nady trade under the rug.

Selective objectivity?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but, as I remember it, Goldstein didn't criticize the Nady trade. He criticized the version of the Nady trade that fell through. Sheehan wrote about he actual trade, "This is the type of deal Neal Huntington needed to make. Considering that he flipped an impending free agent (Marte) and a player having a career half, this is a very good deal for the Pirates’ first-year GM."

"This is an indelicate comparison, but if you want the optimistic viewpoint, think about Hanley Ramirez, who put up a desultory 2005 season in Double-A, creating whispers similar to what we’ve heard about Tabata. Three years later, Ramirez is as close to untouchable as any player in the game. That’s the kind of talent Huntington is trying to add to the Pirates, and if the name and the performance aren’t thrilling to Pirates fans, the thought process and the approach should be."

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/unfil ... hp?paged=2

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 Post subject: Re: Joe Sheehan: Pirates Win at the Deadline
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 5:36 pm 
Willton wrote:
Do I have to comment on everything? What if I didn't feel like it because it had been done to death?


Thanks for proving my point. No, you don't have to. You were selective in choosing which things to comment on.

My point is that you have a curious tendency to only comment on the good NH does and never the 'not good' he does. Not the most credible approach.


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 Post subject: Re: Joe Sheehan: Pirates Win at the Deadline
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 1:13 am 
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Elmer wrote:
Willton wrote:
Do I have to comment on everything? What if I didn't feel like it because it had been done to death?


Thanks for proving my point. No, you don't have to. You were selective in choosing which things to comment on.

My point is that you have a curious tendency to only comment on the good NH does and never the 'not good' he does. Not the most credible approach.

So apparently I must comment on everything or nothing in order to be considered objective. That's ludicrous.

For the record, I am just fine with the Nady trade and have no real worthwhile criticisms of it. It was by no means a great trade, but it was one that needed to be made, and we got a possible star out of it. It was by no means a "not good" trade; it was a fair trade.

The reason I did not comment on said trade is because I did not care to. It had been done to death and there was little that I could say that hadn't been said already. I have no desire to write "atta-boy" posts that just say "I agree," as they add nothing to the conversation.

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~H. L. Mencken


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 Post subject: Re: Joe Sheehan: Pirates Win at the Deadline
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 10:57 am 
Willton wrote:
So apparently I must comment on everything or nothing in order to be considered objective. That's ludicrous.


Where did I say that? That's not the case at all. You need to comment on the GOOD and the BAD to be considered objective. Not every instance, but some of both.

You have admitted you are selective in your comments. If you select to never make comments about bad Pirates moves and only select to make comments that praise management, then no, you are not credible. (There is plenty of subject matter on both).

You are the inverse of BH. He calls everything the Pirates do negative; you call everything they do positive. Neither is true.


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 Post subject: Re: Joe Sheehan: Pirates Win at the Deadline
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 3:02 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
You have admitted you are selective in your comments. If you select to never make comments about bad Pirates moves and only select to make comments that praise management, then no, you are not credible. (There is plenty of subject matter on both).

You are the inverse of BH. He calls everything the Pirates do negative; you call everything they do positive. Neither is true.

What you are implying is absolute garbage. Any assertion as to whether a Pirates' move is good or bad is completely subjective. A bad move in your eyes is not necessarily a bad move in others' eyes. You do not dictate what is a bad move and what is not, so don't tell me what moves I need to comment on in order to remain credible.

Ask anyone here who has been with the board for the last 4 years: I've done my fair share of criticizing the Pirates. But I'm not going to go out of my way to do so just to please you. Further, I don't have the time to comment on everything about the Pirates anymore (I have a summer job at a pretty big law firm that requires me to bill my time), so I choose to budget my time as far as comments go, and only comment on things I feel like discussing. So, the fact that I choose not to comment on a trade that I don't find objectionable does not mean that I'm avoiding an opportunity to be sour on the Buccos just to maintain some unsubstantiated optimism. It means that I just don't feel like commenting about said topic.

I suggest you leave your goonish, unwarranted accusations to yourself.

I said good day!

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 Post subject: Re: Joe Sheehan: Pirates Win at the Deadline
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 3:11 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
You are the inverse of BH. He calls everything the Pirates do negative; you call everything they do positive. Neither is true.


Hey, I think the Pirates do a great job marketing. They make millions of dollars....with a bad team...what is negative about that? I wish I could invest in the team.

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 Post subject: Re: Joe Sheehan: Pirates Win at the Deadline
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 3:56 pm 
So we're resorting to name calling again, are we? Sorry if my "goonish" accusations hurt your feelings.

Of course any Pirates move is subjective, as are all "good moves" and "bad moves." Two intelligent people could have completely different views on any baseball move. I don't dictate that, nor do you (where did I say that I dictate what defines a good baseball move and a bad baseball move?).

I know you've criticized the Pirates plenty, but just not the current regime at all. That is what raises an eyebrow. To act as if ALL moves made by any one administration are good moves is ridiculous. I think any rational follower of the sport would agree that no baseball management team makes smart moves 100% of the time.

Actually, the way you keep saying that you choose to comment on only certain moves completely proves my point. Although you are pointing to a lack of time "this summer" NH and crew have been in place far longer than that. The fact that it's only the moves you view as good moves that you choose to comment on speaks loudly.

I think you are too intelligent of a baseball fan to be an apologist. I strongly suggest applying that intelligence to both praise and criticize the team (even - gasp - Neal Huntington) where warranted. It doesn't have anything to do with "pleasing me" (again, I don't know where you got that. My happiness has zero to do with you), but rather, protecting your own credibility.


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 Post subject: Re: Joe Sheehan: Pirates Win at the Deadline
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 4:07 pm 
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Theres been bad moves like signing Kim, which they were quick to correct when they realized it wasnt working...something the previous staff would not have done...like the whole Tony Armas Jr. joke last season...

Thats why there hasnt been an outcry from some posters on here like Econo and myself because management was quick to fix their folly before it got too deep...

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 Post subject: Re: Joe Sheehan: Pirates Win at the Deadline
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 4:46 pm 
nad69dan wrote:
Theres been bad moves like signing Kim, which they were quick to correct when they realized it wasnt working...something the previous staff would not have done...like the whole Tony Armas Jr. joke last season...

Thats why there hasnt been an outcry from some posters on here like Econo and myself because management was quick to fix their folly before it got too deep...


I agree with you for the most part, nad69dan. You are criticizing them for something they did wrong and praising them for something they did correct, which is how it should be.


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 Post subject: Re: Joe Sheehan: Pirates Win at the Deadline
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 4:59 pm 
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bullishhitter wrote:
Hey, I think the Pirates do a great job marketing. They make millions of dollars....with a bad team... I wish I could invest in the team.


You can - buy a ticket.


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 Post subject: Re: Joe Sheehan: Pirates Win at the Deadline
PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 8:23 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
Willton wrote:
So apparently I must comment on everything or nothing in order to be considered objective. That's ludicrous.


Where did I say that? That's not the case at all. You need to comment on the GOOD and the BAD to be considered objective. Not every instance, but some of both.

You have admitted you are selective in your comments. If you select to never make comments about bad Pirates moves and only select to make comments that praise management, then no, you are not credible. (There is plenty of subject matter on both).

You are the inverse of BH. He calls everything the Pirates do negative; you call everything they do positive. Neither is true.

Elmer, just come out and say what you truly think. Anybody who disagrees with you is a shill for Huntingdon.

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 Post subject: Re: Joe Sheehan: Pirates Win at the Deadline
PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 10:35 am 
sisyphus wrote:
Elmer wrote:
Willton wrote:
So apparently I must comment on everything or nothing in order to be considered objective. That's ludicrous.


Where did I say that? That's not the case at all. You need to comment on the GOOD and the BAD to be considered objective. Not every instance, but some of both.

You have admitted you are selective in your comments. If you select to never make comments about bad Pirates moves and only select to make comments that praise management, then no, you are not credible. (There is plenty of subject matter on both).

You are the inverse of BH. He calls everything the Pirates do negative; you call everything they do positive. Neither is true.

Elmer, just come out and say what you truly think. Anybody who disagrees with you is a shill for Huntingdon.


That's not what I truly think at all. I'm not even talking about people who disagree with me; I like a lot of what Huntington has done.

If you disagree with me, that doesn't make you a shill for Huntington. If you praise every move he makes and never criticize a move he makes, THAT makes you a shill for Huntington.


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 Post subject: Re: Joe Sheehan: Pirates Win at the Deadline
PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 5:48 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
So we're resorting to name calling again, are we? Sorry if my "goonish" accusations hurt your feelings.

Of course any Pirates move is subjective, as are all "good moves" and "bad moves." Two intelligent people could have completely different views on any baseball move.


True. For example, one guy might think Nyjer Morgan is better than Nate McLouth,or believe that Paul Maholm sux, while others might have a better grip on reality. Then later, when those folks disagree again, you have a pretty good idea which of them has an opinion that deserves a bit of respect.

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 Post subject: Re: Joe Sheehan: Pirates Win at the Deadline
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:51 pm 
sisyphus wrote:
Elmer wrote:
So we're resorting to name calling again, are we? Sorry if my "goonish" accusations hurt your feelings.

Of course any Pirates move is subjective, as are all "good moves" and "bad moves." Two intelligent people could have completely different views on any baseball move.


True. For example, one guy might think Nyjer Morgan is better than Nate McLouth,or believe that Paul Maholm sux, while others might have a better grip on reality. Then later, when those folks disagree again, you have a pretty good idea which of them has an opinion that deserves a bit of respect.


I'll freely admit that I was wrong on McClouth and Maholm. Unlike you, I'm not afraid to admit when I'm wrong. But if you're going to criticize me for being wrong, shouldn't you acknowledge when I was right too? You seem to have a tendency for selective objectivity too.

Why won't you talk about how I was high on Doumit since he first broke in? I was saying from Day 1 he should be catcher of the future. A lot of people on this board and other boards, up until May of this year or so, saw him as a first baseman, outfielder, bench player, or emergency catcher. I saw the value of switch-hitting power bat being regularly behind the plate and I saw his below average defensive skills improving.

I also predicted that 2006 was a fluke for Joggin' Ronnie. I don't see lazy catchers making it in the majors for very long. When it appeared they had zero interest in Doumit as a catcher (which drove me nuts) and were behind Paulino, I begged for the team to sign another option. I had resigned myself to their Doumit mistake, but I still wanted someone to come in and at least challenge Paulino becauase I didn't believe he was suitable as a No. 1 Major League catcher. Paulino is back in the minors.

When Snell first broke into the bigs, I predicted he could be a serviceable to good major league starter. I was laughed at by fans who said his ceiling was the bullpen. They didn't care about his stuff, pitching ability or competitiveness ... because of his height, I was told, he'll always be in the pen. He's bad this year, but I think if you look at his career, I was certainly right in predicting that he'd be a serviceable to good major league starter.

I correctly predicted that Kippy wouldn't ever become the ace that so many projected. I was thrilled when the team got Marte back for Mackowiak while some criticized that move. These a just a few that come to mind right now.

I'm not trying to brag here as I've certainly been wrong plenty, but calling me on my misses while ignoring everything else is completely yellow.

Explain to me how it is OK to call me on my misses but not acknowledge the times I was right? Is that credible? I'm no Billy Beane, but I DO know baseball my friend. I also am not afraid to voice my opinion, and my ego isn't such that I'm afraid to admit when I was wrong.


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