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 Post subject: Another trade going nowhere? Gene Collier
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 9:57 am 
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Remember, I did not write this.

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The Pirates have been trying to assemble prospects in lieu of well-paid big leaguers for going on 16 years, and the result has been a record-breaking, soul-destroying slide of 16 consecutive losing seasons.......... How is that(trade) strengthening a foundation of rubble?.........anyone who still cares has to take it on faith that they're right. Not only strategically, but in their ongoing evaluations. Results are due in 2010 or 2011..........That's a lot of maybein'........Pirates management, in its various incarnations, has been writing this script for 16 years, an evident narrative arc to nowhere.


http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/08214/901113-63.stm

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 Post subject: Re: Another trade going nowhere? Gene Collier
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:04 am 
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I hope I'm wrong, but I see it the same way. I don't often agree with Collier, but I think he's spot on this time.

Just a replay of the same movie we've been watching for the last sixteen years.


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 Post subject: Re: Another trade going nowhere? Gene Collier
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:25 am 
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Steve1118 wrote:
I hope I'm wrong, but I see it the same way. I don't often agree with Collier, but I think he's spot on this time.

Just a replay of the same movie we've been watching for the last sixteen years.


If you read the Joe Starkey article, thats somewhat how I feel. However, I stopped watching the replay of the same bad movie after the 01 season. Ownership's actions and results have earned me little trust in what they say and do. If anyone listens to John Steigerwald, you'll be listening to a Bullish Hitter clone when it comes to the Pirates

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 Post subject: Re: Another trade going nowhere? Gene Collier
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:41 am 
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bullishhitter wrote:
Remember, I did not write this.

Given that the writer of this piece actually knows how to use commas, I'm willing to believe you.

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 Post subject: Re: Another trade going nowhere? Gene Collier
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:56 am 
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Willton wrote:
bullishhitter wrote:
Remember, I did not write this.

Given that the writer of this piece actually knows how to use commas, I'm willing to believe you.

I know my grammar, punctuation, and spelling is not the best and not to your liking. When it came to English classes, I cut corners when I got my degree. In my line of work, I have people write and type for me while I work with numbers and make the deals.

This is a message board, not an exercise in English literature. But by all means, feel free to critique my posts.

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 Post subject: Re: Another trade going nowhere? Gene Collier
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:01 am 
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Steve and BH talking to each other in the same thread.....what a shock.


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 Post subject: Re: Another trade going nowhere? Gene Collier
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:07 am 
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I'd like to hear from Bullish and others what they think NH should have done. Seriously. How about some ideas instead of potshots at ownership and past management? Firing the owner isn't an option. What approach should FC and NH be taking?


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 Post subject: Re: Another trade going nowhere? Gene Collier
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:50 am 
burghermeister wrote:
I'd like to hear from Bullish and others what they think NH should have done. Seriously. How about some ideas instead of potshots at ownership and past management? Firing the owner isn't an option. What approach should FC and NH be taking?


I think Collier is one of the best writers in the city and I often agree with him, but not this time. I like the Bay trade because it seems the Pirates got actual quality prospects for once.

That said, I don't think anyone can blame any Pirates fan for taking Collier's stance. Any time a team trades its star player )or anytime a team is continually trying to rebuild for 16 years), a fan taking opposition to that approach is certainly reasonable.


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 Post subject: Re: Another trade going nowhere? Gene Collier
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:57 am 
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burgh makes an excellent point. He asks, "What are the Pirates supposed to do to become competitive?"

The answer, by the way, is not get new owners. The premise that more money on payroll = more wins is not a direct correllation. Teams like the Twins, A's, Marlins, Indians, Rays, Brewers, etc. have competed or are presently competing for playoff spots with budgets that rank among the lower 50%. In the case of the Marlins/A's, their payrolls have been among the lowest in the league when they fielded competitive teams and pushed for the playoffs.

So, back to what the Pirates should do. How about this? Use assets to obtain potential impact players - guys like Pedro Alvarez, Tanner Scheppers, Nate McLouth, Ryan Doumit, Ross Ohlendorf, Craig Hansen, Robert Morris, Denny Bautista. etc. This is why all here were enraged when Littlefield passed on Matt Wieters, a true impact player.

This management group is not going to fallow the path laid down by Cam and Littlefield. They are not going to keep one or two good players, hoping to catch lightning in a bottle with a guy off the junk heap (Todd Ritchie, Kevin Young, etc.). Instead, they will obtain power arms - lots of them. They will obtain high OBP players with power or power potential - lots of them. Eventually, they are going to have a team stacked with power arms throwing 95 mph, and batters who work the count, get on base and hit the ball out of the park.

That is the recipe for winning a lot of games, and in fact the recipe for winning playoff series. Like all recipes, it needs time. These guys have been on the job less than a season, for heaven's sake, and the difference in philosophy and player acquisition is clear.


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 Post subject: Re: Another trade going nowhere? Gene Collier
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:59 am 
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burghermeister wrote:
I'd like to hear from Bullish and others what they think NH should have done. Seriously. How about some ideas instead of potshots at ownership and past management? Firing the owner isn't an option. What approach should FC and NH be taking?


Firing the owner isn't an option, thats true. So if you are fed up with what they do, dont watch or enable their business.
As to what approach? Look at what the Pens did at the trade deadline...but that approach is not going to happen with this ownership. So given the cheap approach, you want to get a blue chip cornerstone prospect or two. From all accounts, none of the prospects fit that bill.

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 Post subject: Re: Another trade going nowhere? Gene Collier
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:00 pm 
Bucfan wrote:
burgh makes an excellent point. He asks, "What are the Pirates supposed to do to become competitive?"

The answer, by the way, is not get new owners. The premise that more money on payroll = more wins is not a direct correllation. Teams like the Twins, A's, Marlins, Indians, Rays, Brewers, etc. have competed or are presently competing for playoff spots with budgets that rank among the lower 50%. In the case of the Marlins/A's, their payrolls have been among the lowest in the league when they fielded competitive teams and pushed for the playoffs.

So, back to what the Pirates should do. How about this? Use assets to obtain potential impact players - guys like Pedro Alvarez, Tanner Scheppers, Nate McLouth, Ryan Doumit, Ross Ohlendorf, Craig Hansen, Robert Morris, Denny Bautista. etc. This is why all here were enraged when Littlefield passed on Matt Wieters, a true impact player.

This management group is not going to fallow the path laid down by Cam and Littlefield. They are not going to keep one or two good players, hoping to catch lightning in a bottle with a guy off the junk heap (Todd Ritchie, Kevin Young, etc.). Instead, they will obtain power arms - lots of them. They will obtain high OBP players with power or power potential - lots of them. Eventually, they are going to have a team stacked with power arms throwing 95 mph, and batters who work the count, get on base and hit the ball out of the park.

That is the recipe for winning a lot of games, and in fact the recipe for winning playoff series. Like all recipes, it needs time. These guys have been on the job less than a season, for heaven's sake, and the difference in philosophy and player acquisition is clear.


I agree, Bucfan, but keeping the key players is, well, key. This is what the team needs to be doing now, but it cant perpetually be relying on prospects.

Also, payroll doesn't have a direct correlation with winning (obviously) but seeing the team somewhere higher than third from the bottom will be key, too. You'll have to pay to keep these prospects at some point, and you might need to plug a hole with a FA or two.


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 Post subject: Re: Another trade going nowhere? Gene Collier
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:07 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
I agree, Bucfan, but keeping the key players is, well, key. This is what the team needs to be doing now, but it cant perpetually be relying on prospects.


True - and it will become interesting when management has to decide whether or not the players they have are enough to win and get to the playoffs. At that point, they need to keep the team together long enough to make a push for a championship.

But for now, Huntington concluded that the Pirates did not have the talent on the roster, and certainly not in the minors, to make them a threat for a workd championship. Keeping these guys would be a repeat of the Dave Littlefield syndrome - the "drive for 75." That philosophy was and is an abject failure.

The Pirates minor league system and core of potential impact young players has increased greatly in two weeks. I would suggest that if the Pirates sign Alvarez, Scheppers, Grossman and Wilson, they will have one of the more stocked minor league systems in baseball.


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 Post subject: Re: Another trade going nowhere? Gene Collier
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:09 pm 
Bucfan wrote:
Elmer wrote:
I agree, Bucfan, but keeping the key players is, well, key. This is what the team needs to be doing now, but it cant perpetually be relying on prospects.


True - and it will become interesting when management has to decide whether or not the players they have are enough to win and get to the playoffs. At that point, they need to keep the team together long enough to make a push for a championship.

But for now, Huntington concluded that the Pirates did not have the talent on the roster, and certainly not in the minors, to make them a threat for a workd championship. Keeping these guys would be a repeat of the Dave Littlefield syndrome - the "drive for 75." That philosophy was and is an abject failure.

The Pirates minor league system and core of potential impact young players has increased greatly in two weeks. I would suggest that if the Pirates sign Alvarez, Scheppers, Grossman and Wilson, they will have one of the more stocked minor league systems in baseball.


I'm with you. Trying not to put the cart before the horse, though. They need to go ahead and sign those guys.


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 Post subject: Re: Another trade going nowhere? Gene Collier
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:44 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
I'm with you. Trying not to put the cart before the horse, though. They need to go ahead and sign those guys.


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 Post subject: Re: Another trade going nowhere? Gene Collier
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 1:20 pm 
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burghermeister wrote:
I'd like to hear from Bullish and others what they think NH should have done. Seriously. How about some ideas instead of potshots at ownership and past management? Firing the owner isn't an option. What approach should FC and NH be taking?


Burgh, these guys got complaints with no solutions, which in turn have no credibility. If Bay was traded for Pujols, Halladay, Peavy, and Hamilton, they'd have some ridiculous complaint.


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 Post subject: Re: Another trade going nowhere? Gene Collier
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 8:08 pm 
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bullishhitter wrote:
burghermeister wrote:
I'd like to hear from Bullish and others what they think NH should have done. Seriously. How about some ideas instead of potshots at ownership and past management? Firing the owner isn't an option. What approach should FC and NH be taking?


Firing the owner isn't an option, thats true. So if you are fed up with what they do, dont watch or enable their business.
As to what approach? Look at what the Pens did at the trade deadline...but that approach is not going to happen with this ownership. So given the cheap approach, you want to get a blue chip cornerstone prospect or two. From all accounts, none of the prospects fit that bill.

From what accounts? You are nuts. LaRoche and Tabata are BOTH blue chippers.

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 Post subject: Re: Another trade going nowhere? Gene Collier
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 8:25 pm 
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sisyphus wrote:
From what accounts? You are nuts. LaRoche and Tabata are BOTH blue chippers.


Yes. Additionally, Hansen is a first-round pick who throws the ball 98 mph and has had huge K rates in the minors; Ross Ohlendorf throws 94-96 mph and has a nasty slider; Daniel McCutchen has sparkling control and features three pitches that he can throw for strikes, including a plus curve and 92-93 mph sinker; and Morris is coming off elbow sugery and lighting up the radar as a starter at 96-97 mph while fanning more than 12 batters per 9 innings.

If these guys were in a draft right now, with teams knowing what they can and would do against professional competition and wood bats, they would get massive interest. All of them would be considered as early picks. They are a group of potential high-contribution players and they revive the Pirates minor league system (together with the blue ship selections at 1-2 this year).


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 Post subject: Re: Another trade going nowhere? Gene Collier
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:29 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
Bucfan wrote:
burgh makes an excellent point. He asks, "What are the Pirates supposed to do to become competitive?"

The answer, by the way, is not get new owners. The premise that more money on payroll = more wins is not a direct correllation. Teams like the Twins, A's, Marlins, Indians, Rays, Brewers, etc. have competed or are presently competing for playoff spots with budgets that rank among the lower 50%. In the case of the Marlins/A's, their payrolls have been among the lowest in the league when they fielded competitive teams and pushed for the playoffs.

So, back to what the Pirates should do. How about this? Use assets to obtain potential impact players - guys like Pedro Alvarez, Tanner Scheppers, Nate McLouth, Ryan Doumit, Ross Ohlendorf, Craig Hansen, Robert Morris, Denny Bautista. etc. This is why all here were enraged when Littlefield passed on Matt Wieters, a true impact player.

This management group is not going to fallow the path laid down by Cam and Littlefield. They are not going to keep one or two good players, hoping to catch lightning in a bottle with a guy off the junk heap (Todd Ritchie, Kevin Young, etc.). Instead, they will obtain power arms - lots of them. They will obtain high OBP players with power or power potential - lots of them. Eventually, they are going to have a team stacked with power arms throwing 95 mph, and batters who work the count, get on base and hit the ball out of the park.

That is the recipe for winning a lot of games, and in fact the recipe for winning playoff series. Like all recipes, it needs time. These guys have been on the job less than a season, for heaven's sake, and the difference in philosophy and player acquisition is clear.


I agree, Bucfan, but keeping the key players is, well, key.


No it isn't. Trading them at the right time for the right return is key.

Quote:
This is what the team needs to be doing now, but it cant perpetually be relying on prospects.


When this team is ready to compete it won't be relying on prospects. It will be relying on guys who used to be prospects, just like every other team in contention.

Quote:
Also, payroll doesn't have a direct correlation with winning (obviously) but seeing the team somewhere higher than third from the bottom will be key, too. You'll have to pay to keep these prospects at some point, and you might need to plug a hole with a FA or two.

You will almost certainly need a FA here and there to plug holes, but you should only rarely keep guys beyond their eligibility for free agency. If a guy comes up at 24, then he's 30 when he's eligible for free agency. It's stupid to give out the biggest contracts to guys who are already past their primes.

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 Post subject: Re: Another trade going nowhere? Gene Collier
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 5:30 pm 
sisyphus wrote:
You will almost certainly need a FA here and there to plug holes, but you should only rarely keep guys beyond their eligibility for free agency. If a guy comes up at 24, then he's 30 when he's eligible for free agency. It's stupid to give out the biggest contracts to guys who are already past their primes.


Depends on the guy. You don't want to generalize and shoot yourself in the foot. Most guys decline after 30, but it takes some guys longer. Hire good talent evaluators and trust their judgments. Some guys are spent at 30. Others have plenty in the tank.


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