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 Post subject: My Trade Analysis (non-player related)
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:08 pm 
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This trade, and the non-trades with Florida and Tampa, really helped improve the Pirates reputation, IMO.

During the Littlefield era we saw one of two scenarios play out on a regular basis:

(1) Littlefield would overpay/cave for mediocre (or worse) players. We saw this with the Ramirez trade, the Davis trade, the Schmidt trade, etc. It was always based on what his, and his scouts, were based on "mlb-ready" talent.

(2) We would hold on to players simply to see them walk away when it was clear they wouldn't be back. We saw this with Reggie Sanders and Matt Stairs when they were here on one-year contracts.

NH held his ground this week and said no to Tampa when they wouldn't include their top pitching prospects: Hellickson, Price, or Davis. NH held his ground when Ryan Tucker was taken out of the mix with Florida. I'm sure this type of comment came up in Tampa's and Florida's war rooms..."Just wait until 3:59, the Pirates will cave."

Instead the Rays watched as the Yankees got better and the Red Sox, well I don't know what they did, but they at least got a player that won't take 5.7 seconds to run to first.

The Marlins lost out on a chance to improve their team's offense when it was clear the Mets couldn't afford to improve themselves and the Phillies upgraded their pitching staff.

This should go a long way to restoring the respect and credibility to dealing with the Pirates for trades, even if 5 years from now the players we got don't amount to anything.


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 Post subject: Re: My Trade Analysis (non-player related)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:05 am 
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You make very good points. Teams now will look at the pirates as a serious trading partner that will ask for what they want and if they dont get it they will get it somewhere else.

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 Post subject: Re: My Trade Analysis (non-player related)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:35 am 
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PBB wrote:
This trade, and the non-trades with Florida and Tampa, really helped improve the Pirates reputation, IMO.

During the Littlefield era we saw one of two scenarios play out on a regular basis:

(1) Littlefield would overpay/cave for mediocre (or worse) players. We saw this with the Ramirez trade, the Davis trade, the Schmidt trade, etc. It was always based on what his, and his scouts, were based on "mlb-ready" talent.

(2) We would hold on to players simply to see them walk away when it was clear they wouldn't be back. We saw this with Reggie Sanders and Matt Stairs when they were here on one-year contracts.

NH held his ground this week and said no to Tampa when they wouldn't include their top pitching prospects: Hellickson, Price, or Davis. NH held his ground when Ryan Tucker was taken out of the mix with Florida. I'm sure this type of comment came up in Tampa's and Florida's war rooms..."Just wait until 3:59, the Pirates will cave."

Instead the Rays watched as the Yankees got better and the Red Sox, well I don't know what they did, but they at least got a player that won't take 5.7 seconds to run to first.

The Marlins lost out on a chance to improve their team's offense when it was clear the Mets couldn't afford to improve themselves and the Phillies upgraded their pitching staff.

This should go a long way to restoring the respect and credibility to dealing with the Pirates for trades, even if 5 years from now the players we got don't amount to anything.


Nice post. I'm glad I opened the thread.


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 Post subject: Re: My Trade Analysis (non-player related)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 2:58 am 
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NH did a great job of making sure the Pirates received an adequate return. To be honest, I believe both trades were excellent. The reputation of NH as a trading partner is not as clearly defined since the RTA (return on investment) for the trading partners is not clear yet. The success or failure of LA or Boston would be a better way to guage the effectiveness on the trades. At least this season.
Considering that we have three players we traded for in our organization, and five who will make an impact, some (Ohlendorf) in a short time, there is more than a consideration that the Pirates will most assuredly benefit in the long run. NH may gain a reputation as being a very shrewd trading partner, hence you may see more reluctance on the future suitor's willingness to approach. Of course, it is all about what is needed for a team's success or failure.
Todays Pirate's seem to be a more aggressive organization than in the recent past. Ideally the use of advanced scouts and their feedback is much more agressive and deeper than what we have seen.

BEAT 'EM BUCS


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 Post subject: Re: My Trade Analysis (non-player related)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 3:06 am 
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Biesbol, I think you hit the nail on the head. Best case scenario for the Pirates is Bay and Ramirez play lights-out in their new uniforms and the prospects that the Pirates traded for pan out to be good ballplayers. If everyone is happy with the trade they might be more likely to work a deal in the future.

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 Post subject: Re: My Trade Analysis (non-player related)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 9:26 am 
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I would like to see Bay succeed in Boston, I could care less about Manny, and of course I'd like all 8 guys that we received play major roles in out 2011 WS run.


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 Post subject: Re: My Trade Analysis (non-player related)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:04 am 
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Interesting quote this morning on Mike & Mike by Gammons.

"The Red Sox didn't want to give up Hansen and Moss, but realized it would cost them more to get Bay in the winter".

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.. Maximizing the deal?????

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: My Trade Analysis (non-player related)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:10 am 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Interesting quote this morning on Mike & Mike by Gammons.

"The Red Sox didn't want to give up Hansen and Moss, but realized it would cost them more to get Bay in the winter".

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.. Maximizing the deal?????

ZM

I have a hard time believing that the Red Sox were really that reluctant to give up two players who had no chance of playing in Boston. I'm happy to have them, but this was no great loss to Boston.

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 Post subject: Re: My Trade Analysis (non-player related)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:14 am 
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So am I. That wasn't the point.

The point was the Bay would fetch MORE in the offseason.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: My Trade Analysis (non-player related)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:33 am 
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ZelieMike wrote:
So am I. That wasn't the point.

The point was the Bay would fetch MORE in the offseason.

ZM

In a straight up deal, no doubt that's true. It was only LA chipping in two additional (and arguably better) prospects that enabled them to get Bay.

This may be one of those rare deals where all sides are winners. Boston gets rid of Manny and gets Bay on the cheap; LA get's a bat for the playoff run and the Bucs get quantity and quality in prospects. Time will tell....


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 Post subject: Re: My Trade Analysis (non-player related)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:38 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Interesting quote this morning on Mike & Mike by Gammons.

"The Red Sox didn't want to give up Hansen and Moss, but realized it would cost them more to get Bay in the winter".

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.. Maximizing the deal?????

ZM


When I want insightful, thoughtful news on baseball, I turn to Mike and Mike.

Then, I watch the commercials, hoping to learn where to find such information.


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 Post subject: Re: My Trade Analysis (non-player related)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:42 pm 
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You don't like Gammons?

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: My Trade Analysis (non-player related)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:50 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
You don't like Gammons?

ZM


Gammons is a pretty good source and I like him, but his view of baseball is colored by his long-time allegience to the Sox. He is an unabashed Sox fan. He has worked closely with the team as a media representative for years. He gets much of his "inside" information from Sox personnel. Therefore, he is "worked" by the Sox.

And my post was a shot at Mike and Mike, who feel that the only baseball game played each year is the final game of the World Series. I really dislike the way they pay no attention to the long, arduous process of reaching the playoffs, and the battles that teams have in the post-season. They act as if it were pre-ordained that the Yankees play the Sox, and that the other two AL teams in the playoffs are footnotes. I hate that attitude with a passion.


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 Post subject: Re: My Trade Analysis (non-player related)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 1:26 pm 
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I can't stand Gammons, I am shocked that he actually mentioned the Pirates in a segment.


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 Post subject: Re: My Trade Analysis (non-player related)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 1:28 pm 
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I thought Gammons looked very, very sad yesterday. Like someone just shot his dog (or traded his favorite teams best player). I loved it.

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