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 Post subject: Re: Another analyst rips NH big time
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 8:03 pm 
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The author of this article also lumped Paul Maholm in with John Vanbenschoten.

I guess he is not paying attention to the fact that Paul Maholm, since June 15, 2007 [but excluding the idiotic Jim Tracy-inspired two starts in September, when Maholm was hurt and should not have been pitching], has put up the following:

15-11, 234 innings pitched, 232 H, 3.69 ERA, 61 BB, 152 K's, and a 1.25 WHIP.

That is top-end performance. Even the great and powerful Yankees would be thrilled if one of their HGH users could match that production.


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 Post subject: Re: Another analyst rips NH big time
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:01 pm 
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It's solid, but I don't call a 3.69 ERA and a K/9 of less than six top end. The author wasn't calling all those players horrible, he was saying that none of them is a bona fide star. And yes, McClouth is having a great year, but he's got a .260 lifetime average, let's not lump him in with Bonds just yet.


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 Post subject: Re: Another analyst rips NH big time
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 1:49 am 
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Elmer wrote:
My biggest criticism is NH pulled the trigger too fast. Had he waited til Wednesday or Thursday, he very well may have gotten elite prospects. The problem is, we'll never know.

What he got is OK. Had the original deal been completed, then he'd look like a pushover.

Or he could have gotten nothing. We've seen what happens when GMs wait too long to pull the trigger: trade partners lose interest and look elsewhere to fill their needs.

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 Post subject: Re: Another analyst rips NH big time
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 5:56 am 
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Charlies pretty emphatically drives a stake through the heart of the Pearlman article over at Bucs Dugout.

http://www.bucsdugout.com/2008/7/30/582444/i-guess-it-s-pick-on-espn

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 Post subject: Re: Another analyst rips NH big time
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:32 am 
Willton wrote:
Elmer wrote:
My biggest criticism is NH pulled the trigger too fast. Had he waited til Wednesday or Thursday, he very well may have gotten elite prospects. The problem is, we'll never know.

What he got is OK. Had the original deal been completed, then he'd look like a pushover.

Or he could have gotten nothing. We've seen what happens when GMs wait too long to pull the trigger: trade partners lose interest and look elsewhere to fill their needs.


Come on man, you've got an excuse for everything. He could have waitied a big longer that a full week before and not risk trade partners losing interest ... look at how much activity is going on today.

You've gotta learn to be objective. No one is perfect. If you're going to praise NH for the good he does (and he has done some good things), how are not going to criticize him for his mistakes? He pulled the trigger too soon. Does that make him a bad GM? DL? Cam? NOOOOO! But you are allowed to criticize him just as you praise him.


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 Post subject: Re: Another analyst rips NH big time
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:05 am 
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Elmer wrote:
Come on man, you've got an excuse for everything. He could have waitied a big longer that a full week before and not risk trade partners losing interest ... look at how much activity is going on today.

You've gotta learn to be objective. No one is perfect. If you're going to praise NH for the good he does (and he has done some good things), how are not going to criticize him for his mistakes? He pulled the trigger too soon. Does that make him a bad GM? DL? Cam? NOOOOO! But you are allowed to criticize him just as you praise him.

I'm fully aware of my right to criticize my favorite team's GM -- I've been doing so long before you got here. But I fail to see how sitting on this particular deal would have loosened the purse-strings of other teams. Teams don't give up the farm for rental players anymore (and Nady's role on the Yankees will likely be diminished next year), and given the recent league-wide trend of holding on tightly to one's best prospects, I have a hard time believing that the offers were going to get better the longer the Bucs waited to deal Nady and Marte. I also don't believe that other GM's like being trifled with, and I don't think that the trade offers get better the more you piss off your trading partners, especially when there are other options available (Adam Dunn, Ken Griffey Jr., and Casey Blake, to name a few).

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 Post subject: Re: Another analyst rips NH big time
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:07 am 
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No he did not. He set up the deals with Tampa and Red Sox by putting the Yanks on their tails.

By putting the lesser of the two players (Marte and Nady) out in the market first, he pushes Tampa to give up their elite SS and pitching or to get back a great deal from Boston/Florida.

Not saying that he "knew" this specifically would happen. But, by putting those guys out early on the market, he created the atmosphere to raise the price for Bay, which by all accounts was too low for the whole of the trading season.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Another analyst rips NH big time
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:12 am 
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Get back to me when the Twins win a World Series.


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 Post subject: Re: Another analyst rips NH big time
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:24 am 
ZelieMike wrote:
No he did not. He set up the deals with Tampa and Red Sox by putting the Yanks on their tails.

By putting the lesser of the two players (Marte and Nady) out in the market first, he pushes Tampa to give up their elite SS and pitching or to get back a great deal from Boston/Florida.

Not saying that he "knew" this specifically would happen. But, by putting those guys out early on the market, he created the atmosphere to raise the price for Bay, which by all accounts was too low for the whole of the trading season.

ZM


I see your point, ZM, but I'm not sure that was the smartest way to go. It seems the Rays are still reluctant to give up their top pitching prospects. I'd prefer my GM get the best deal for every player rather than taking a deal quickly for what *might* happen in subsequent deals.


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 Post subject: Re: Another analyst rips NH big time
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:54 am 
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Who wants to beat/hold off the Yanks more? Tampa or Boston? One will blink first.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Another analyst rips NH big time
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 12:20 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
By putting the lesser of the two players (Marte and Nady) out in the market first, he pushes Tampa to give up their elite SS and pitching or to get back a great deal from Boston/Florida.
ZM


I thought of this point and raised it last night by noting that the Nady/Marte deal might force the Rays to get off the pot and make a legitimate offer for Bay. Now, rumors are circulating about the Sox getting Bay.

Tampa - this season is about to go down the tubes while you are ringing up 3 runs per game. Get Bay and make the playoffs. And I have reason to suspect that no team has ever won the World Series without first getting into the playoffs/post-season.


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 Post subject: Re: Another analyst rips NH big time
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:41 pm 
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dr.j wrote:
Howard for Wells... that one reopened a big wound. Allegedly, DL did not pull the trigger because of Eldred.

DL was never offered Howard for Wells. The rumor was Howard for Benson.

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 Post subject: Re: Another analyst rips NH big time
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:53 pm 
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To those analysts : RIP THIS!

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 Post subject: Re: Another analyst rips NH big time
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:00 am 
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sisyphus wrote:
dr.j wrote:
Howard for Wells... that one reopened a big wound. Allegedly, DL did not pull the trigger because of Eldred.

DL was never offered Howard for Wells. The rumor was Howard for Benson.


No there was a howard for wells either the previous year or next year after howard for benson.

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 Post subject: Re: Another analyst rips NH big time
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 1:35 am 
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Ryann wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
dr.j wrote:
Howard for Wells... that one reopened a big wound. Allegedly, DL did not pull the trigger because of Eldred.

DL was never offered Howard for Wells. The rumor was Howard for Benson.


No there was a howard for wells either the previous year or next year after howard for benson.

Wells was not on the block the year before, and Howard was not on the block the year after.

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 Post subject: Re: Another analyst rips NH big time
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:01 am 
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Howard was never offered, for anyone on the Pirates.

This urban myth was put to rest twice, once by DK (you can look it up on the P-G), and again by the Philly Inquirer interview with the Philly GM, who about fell out his chair laughing at the idea.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Another analyst rips NH big time
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:57 am 
ZelieMike wrote:
Howard was never offered, for anyone on the Pirates.

This urban myth was put to rest twice, once by DK (you can look it up on the P-G), and again by the Philly Inquirer interview with the Philly GM, who about fell out his chair laughing at the idea.

ZM


I think you're probably right. But if we're all going to take the approach that other GMs had an agenda texting Buster Olney about the Nady trade, it's also at least possible that both the DL and the Philly GM were doing the same.

DL wouldn't want to look like an idiot for passing on the offer, and Philly GM wouldn't want to look like an idiot for making the offer.

Not saying that is definitely the case, but if we're going to throw around the "GMs lying to the media because of agendas" theory, it has to be consistent.


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 Post subject: Re: Another analyst rips NH big time
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:11 pm 
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Oh, they all have an agenda, and no one wants to look bad. I also believe the names were thrown around. Just not as if it was "Here take Howard".. and DL says, naaaaaaaaaah, don't need him.

Probably more like.

Philly GM: I need pitching help. Here's a list of available prospects (Howards name not crossed out)

DL: Hey how about that Howard?

Philly GM: What you got?

DL: Krissy Benson.

Philly GM: Falls off table laughing. "click".

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Another analyst rips NH big time
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:13 pm 
ZelieMike wrote:
Oh, they all have an agenda, and no one wants to look bad. I also believe the names were thrown around. Just not as if it was "Here take Howard".. and DL says, naaaaaaaaaah, don't need him.

Probably more like.

Philly GM: I need pitching help. Here's a list of available prospects (Howards name not crossed out)

DL: Hey how about that Howard?

Philly GM: What you got?

DL: Krissy Benson.

Philly GM: Falls off table laughing. "click".

ZM


LOL, that's probably pretty close.


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