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 Post subject: Another analyst rips NH big time
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:45 pm 
This writer makes some good points, but also damages his own credibility by claiming the Pirates haven't drafted a star since Barry Bonds (McClouth? Doumit?)

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/st ... ortCat=mlb


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 Post subject: Re: Another analyst rips NH big time
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:58 pm 
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I couldn't agree with that article more.

I don't think he hurt his credibility with the Bonds comment. Maybe it was a bit of an overstatement, but let's put it this way: not a whole lot of people outside of Pittsburgh know who McClouth and Doumit are. If they continue this production for years, then we can come back and say the ESPN writer was wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: Another analyst rips NH big time
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:04 pm 
jaybee24 wrote:
I couldn't agree with that article more.

I don't think he hurt his credibility with the Bonds comment. Maybe it was a bit of an overstatement, but let's put it this way: not a whole lot of people outside of Pittsburgh know who McClouth and Doumit are. If they continue this production for years, then we can come back and say the ESPN writer was wrong.


I definitely think NH could have gotten more, but I don't think it's a "horrible" trade either. We won't know for sure, obviously, for a couple years. But based on the takes of numerous analysts who do know something about these prospects, I'd call it stomachable, average, OK, etc. Clearly it sounds like he could/should have gotten more, but this also isn't a Bobby Hill trade.

It's like hooking up with a plane Jane. Probably not going to brag to your friends about it, but you don't have to lie about it if asked, either.


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 Post subject: Re: Another analyst rips NH big time
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:06 pm 
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Ummmmm..


Aramis Ramerez.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Another analyst rips NH big time
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:09 pm 
ZelieMike wrote:
Ummmmm..


Aramis Ramerez.

ZM



I thought of that too, but I think he's absolved from that one on a technicality - I think the Pirates signed him right out of the Dominican Republic, the didn't draft him.


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 Post subject: Re: Another analyst rips NH big time
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:15 pm 
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The guy is more interested in writing colorful prose than saying anything of substance.

Aside from bashing the franchise, which of course is very fashionable, and somewhat exaggerating the value of Nady and Marte, I assume his basic point to be that we should have gotten say 2 elite level prospects instead of 4 merely decent prospects.

First, I'm not sure I agree with that. We desperately needed quantity when it comes to starting pitching. Second, he presumes that someone was offering elite level prospects, and NH turned it down. Does anyone know that to be the case? Frankly I would be surprised.


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 Post subject: Re: Another analyst rips NH big time
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:18 pm 
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Howard for Wells... that one reopened a big wound. Allegedly, DL did not pull the trigger because of Eldred.


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 Post subject: Re: Another analyst rips NH big time
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:21 pm 
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Howard for Wells? Never happened. Urban Myth.

Long posting on this. Two articles on it. One in the P-G by DK, and another in the Philly Inquirer that interviewed the Philly GM.

He basically fell out of chair laughing when that rumor was brought up.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Another analyst rips NH big time
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:23 pm 
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I can't believe any of you guys could agree with that idiot. The only thing he was right about was not drafting well. But even that point is ridiculous because we drafted well until Mickey White was basically forced out. But he doesn't know anything about that.

And I guess it is very fashionable to bash the Pirates, but I don't see the A's or Twins winning any WS championships. Oh, they play over .500 sometimes, well whoop dee doo.

I must say, I am not the type of guy that gloats or talks trash, but when the Pirates start winning, I am going to be more abnoxious than a bandwaggon Red Sox fan and illiterate Yankee fan put together.


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 Post subject: Re: Another analyst rips NH big time
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:28 pm 
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Writing colorful prose is part of his job description as a professional writer. Aside from that, the substance of his article is that when you have a team like the Yankees by the short and curlies, you don't settle for the pu pu platter the Pirates got. He did a decent job of going beyond "who are these guys" and detailing why getting the likes of Tabata and Ohlendorf was short change. I haven't seen that from Buster Olney or the other big name analysts at ESPN.

I don't know if anyone else was offering an elite prospect. In that case, I'd just rather the Pirates have held onto Nady and either made a run at .500 next year (better than finishing with 90 losses again) or traded him at the '09 deadline. Yeah, his value may not have been as high as it is now, but obviously his high value didn't help the Pirates actually get anything.

I keep hearing, "This was the best the Pirates were going to get." I respectfully disagree.


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 Post subject: Re: Another analyst rips NH big time
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:35 pm 
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Piratefan13 wrote:
And I guess it is very fashionable to bash the Pirates, but I don't see the A's or Twins winning any WS championships. Oh, they play over .500 sometimes, well whoop dee doo.


They're making the playoffs with meager payrolls, proving that small market teams can at least get to the post season. That's the point. Despite the fact that neither the Twins nor the A's has won a championship in a while, there is still a world of difference between them and an organization that hasn't had a winning record for almost two decades. Championships or not, it's much more fun to root for a playoff contending team.

Piratefan13 wrote:
I must say, I am not the type of guy that gloats or talks trash, but when the Pirates start winning, I am going to be more abnoxious than a bandwaggon Red Sox fan and illiterate Yankee fan put together.


Same for me when Angelina Jolie finally calls and begs me for a date.


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 Post subject: Re: Another analyst rips NH big time
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:38 pm 
jaybee24 wrote:
Piratefan13 wrote:
And I guess it is very fashionable to bash the Pirates, but I don't see the A's or Twins winning any WS championships. Oh, they play over .500 sometimes, well whoop dee doo.


They're making the playoffs with meager payrolls, proving that small market teams can at least get to the post season. That's the point. Despite the fact that neither the Twins nor the A's has won a championship in a while, there is still a world of difference between them and an organization that hasn't had a winning record for almost two decades. Championships or not, it's much more fun to root for a playoff contending team.

Piratefan13 wrote:
I must say, I am not the type of guy that gloats or talks trash, but when the Pirates start winning, I am going to be more abnoxious than a bandwaggon Red Sox fan and illiterate Yankee fan put together.


Same for me when Angelina Jolie finally calls and begs me for a date.


Jaybee, I agree that competing and making the playoffs is worlds better than where the team is at.

I dont' agree at all that a winning record isn't important. It means you win more games than you lose ... that's huge. I like this team too much to be OK with being a loser.

Ideally you're a contender most years, and you can win a championship (and make the bold moves to do so) when you have a legit chance.


Last edited by Elmer on Wed Jul 30, 2008 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Another analyst rips NH big time
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 2:00 pm 
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Right from the start this blurb caught my eye:

With his boyish good looks and perfectly placed hair, he would revitalize scouting; place more money and emphasis on character and minor league development; make decisions based on the long-term benefit of the franchise.

Unless I'm mistaken, all these things have been done. Seriously, I don't understand how anyone can call this deal anything other than a wait and see.

Here's something I hate to admit, but will anyway, because of all this hoopla, and because it's the Yankees, I actually hope Nady and Marte don't fare that well the rest of the year.

In my perfect world, after a disappointing 2008, the Bombers let Marte go and he sign's with Boston and goes on to save 62 games subbing for an injured Pappelbon (sp?). Nady is traded to the Angels, who are looking to replace Texiera (again with the spelling?), and he wins the triple crown while leading them to a World Series victory.

Oh, and the NYY finish 79-83, seven games worse than Pittsburgh.


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 Post subject: Re: Another analyst rips NH big time
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 3:00 pm 
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jaybee24 wrote:
Piratefan13 wrote:
And I guess it is very fashionable to bash the Pirates, but I don't see the A's or Twins winning any WS championships. Oh, they play over .500 sometimes, well whoop dee doo.


They're making the playoffs with meager payrolls, proving that small market teams can at least get to the post season. That's the point. Despite the fact that neither the Twins nor the A's has won a championship in a while, there is still a world of difference between them and an organization that hasn't had a winning record for almost two decades. Championships or not, it's much more fun to root for a playoff contending team.

Piratefan13 wrote:
I must say, I am not the type of guy that gloats or talks trash, but when the Pirates start winning, I am going to be more abnoxious than a bandwaggon Red Sox fan and illiterate Yankee fan put together.


Same for me when Angelina Jolie finally calls and begs me for a date.


My point is simple, while teams like the A's and the Twins have been running this kind of cycle, the Pirates had a GM that completely tore down the structure and framework that was the Pirates. NH now has to play catch-up and get this organization back into shape, so bashing the Pirates now for trading Nady and Marte is a bit childish and rather easy. It takes a more educated baseball man to see that the Pirates got 3 live arms and a hi-upside guy, for an average player and a lefty specialist. On the surface it seems pretty darn good.

As far as the Twins and the A's, I would hope the Pirates try and win the WS when we are in position to do so, not to just give us a somewhat playoff caliber team that gets your hopes up only to be overmatched in October.


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 Post subject: Re: Another analyst rips NH big time
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 3:24 pm 
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Unless you can name names, this arguement falls flat on its face.

How many times can you have the Yanks say "no" to Austin Wallace before you know you won't get him?

I brought this up a few weeks ago, and still have not gotten any type of real response.

How do you trade for elite prospects when:

1. Everyone is.
2. Nobody is giving up theirs because
3. Every team like the Pirates needs to stock their system, and;
4. Your guys just are NOT stars.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Another analyst rips NH big time
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 3:24 pm 
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[quote="jaybee24"]Writing colorful prose is part of his job description as a professional writer. quote]

Yes, but he's more interested in being colorful than in being substantive.


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 Post subject: Re: Another analyst rips NH big time
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 3:25 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Unless you can name names, this arguement falls flat on its face.

How many times can you have the Yanks say "no" to Austin Wallace before you know you won't get him?

I brought this up a few weeks ago, and still have not gotten any type of real response.

How do you trade for elite prospects when:

1. Everyone is.
2. Nobody is giving up theirs because
3. Every team like the Pirates needs to stock their system, and;
4. Your guys just are NOT stars.

ZM


Nice post ZM, Kinda just summed it all up


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 Post subject: Re: Another analyst rips NH big time
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 5:17 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Unless you can name names, this arguement falls flat on its face.

How many times can you have the Yanks say "no" to Austin Wallace before you know you won't get him?

I brought this up a few weeks ago, and still have not gotten any type of real response.

How do you trade for elite prospects when:

1. Everyone is.
2. Nobody is giving up theirs because
3. Every team like the Pirates needs to stock their system, and;
4. Your guys just are NOT stars.

ZM


There is a middle ground in between demanding elite prospects and getting what the Pirates got. In a worst case scenario, I'd have rather seen the Bucs keep their guys and have NH send a message that he's not going to be a pushover. Because he looks like one now.


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 Post subject: Re: Another analyst rips NH big time
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:22 pm 
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jaybee24 wrote:
ZelieMike wrote:
Unless you can name names, this arguement falls flat on its face.

How many times can you have the Yanks say "no" to Austin Wallace before you know you won't get him?

I brought this up a few weeks ago, and still have not gotten any type of real response.

How do you trade for elite prospects when:

1. Everyone is.
2. Nobody is giving up theirs because
3. Every team like the Pirates needs to stock their system, and;
4. Your guys just are NOT stars.

ZM


There is a middle ground in between demanding elite prospects and getting what the Pirates got. In a worst case scenario, I'd have rather seen the Bucs keep their guys and have NH send a message that he's not going to be a pushover. Because he looks like one now.

Sounds like a great way to cut your nose off to spite your face.

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Last edited by Willton on Thu Jul 31, 2008 1:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Another analyst rips NH big time
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:34 pm 
jaybee24 wrote:
ZelieMike wrote:
Unless you can name names, this arguement falls flat on its face.

How many times can you have the Yanks say "no" to Austin Wallace before you know you won't get him?

I brought this up a few weeks ago, and still have not gotten any type of real response.

How do you trade for elite prospects when:

1. Everyone is.
2. Nobody is giving up theirs because
3. Every team like the Pirates needs to stock their system, and;
4. Your guys just are NOT stars.

ZM


There is a middle ground in between demanding elite prospects and getting what the Pirates got. In a worst case scenario, I'd have rather seen the Bucs keep their guys and have NH send a message that he's not going to be a pushover. Because he looks like one now.


My biggest criticism is NH pulled the trigger too fast. Had he waited til Wednesday or Thursday, he very well may have gotten elite prospects. The problem is, we'll never know.

What he got is OK. Had the original deal been completed, then he'd look like a pushover.


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