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 Post subject: It's amazing.....
PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 8:23 pm 
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and disheartening a bit to look at the different MLB blogs and see how the other teams in the majors, and their fans, take it for granted that the Buccos are the "farm team" for the rest of the major leagues.

They assume that when the Bucs get good players, (i.e. Jason Bay, Jack Wilson) that PBC is "obligated" to let them go the big boys in exchange for a few guys named Joe who may or may not pan out over the next five years or so. I'm getting tired of it.

It is time for the Bucco management to hang on to these guys, especially Bay, Wilson, McLouth, etc., and just open the checkbook and buy them some pitching help.

These guys are good, and I take them at their word that they want to stay here. Just get them to help they need, tell the other GMs to go pound sand, we are not their personal stockroom.

End of rant.


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 Post subject: Re: It's amazing.....
PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 9:08 pm 
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Steve1118 wrote:
It is time for the Bucco management to hang on to these guys, especially Bay, Wilson, McLouth, etc., and just open the checkbook and buy them some pitching help.

End of rant.


Quality pitching is extremely difficult to find and keep. The litany of pitchers signed as free agents who then stink is lengthy and frightening:

Carlos Silva, Barry Zito, Jason Schmidt, Jeff Suppan*, Bartolo Colon, Jeff Weaver, Matt Clement, Eric Milton, and on and on.

* I have to root for Suppan. He attended the high school where my son goes to school.


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 Post subject: Re: It's amazing.....
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:10 am 
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Colon was a nice pick up for Boston and filled in pretty well when Dice-K went on the DL...Nothing like his former self, but performed well for being 500 pounds

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 Post subject: Re: It's amazing.....
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:06 am 
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Steve1118 wrote:
and disheartening a bit to look at the different MLB blogs and see how the other teams in the majors, and their fans, take it for granted that the Buccos are the "farm team" for the rest of the major leagues.

They assume that when the Bucs get good players, (i.e. Jason Bay, Jack Wilson) that PBC is "obligated" to let them go the big boys in exchange for a few guys named Joe who may or may not pan out over the next five years or so. I'm getting tired of it.

Why do you give a damn what fans of other teams think?

Trading established players for prospects is what keeps Oakland, Atlanta, Florida, Cleveland and Minnesota relevant in baseball. Helpful and undervalued players almost never show up in free agency anymore, so the only way to improve a small-market team is to acquire good players when they are cheap. That pretty much means that the Pirates are going to have to take some chances with some high-upside, unproven prospects if they have any hopes of contending again.

Steve1118 wrote:
It is time for the Bucco management to hang on to these guys, especially Bay, Wilson, McLouth, etc., and just open the checkbook and buy them some pitching help.

These guys are good, and I take them at their word that they want to stay here. Just get them to help they need, tell the other GMs to go pound sand, we are not their personal stockroom.

Wilson is not a player to build around, and Bay likely has 2-3 good years left in him. Holding onto these players while we hope to buy good pitching is a bad strategy, as for every year we hold on to them, they get older and less effective. (If you don't believe me, have a look at who our 2nd baseman is.)

This team is going nowhere as it is currently constructed. It needs to be blown up and rebuilt. Buying free agency help to turn around a sub-.500 team is a losing strategy. Just ask the Mariners and Orioles.

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 Post subject: Re: It's amazing.....
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:11 am 
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nad69dan wrote:
Colon was a nice pick up for Boston and filled in pretty well when Dice-K went on the DL...Nothing like his former self, but performed well for being 500 pounds


That is true, but only after he lost it and was horrible for 2 years. This was in his third seasons after signing for free agent money. His last 2 years for the Angels, he went 7-13 with an ERA around 6.00.


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 Post subject: Re: It's amazing.....
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:33 am 
Steve1118 wrote:
and disheartening a bit to look at the different MLB blogs and see how the other teams in the majors, and their fans, take it for granted that the Buccos are the "farm team" for the rest of the major leagues.

They assume that when the Bucs get good players, (i.e. Jason Bay, Jack Wilson) that PBC is "obligated" to let them go the big boys in exchange for a few guys named Joe who may or may not pan out over the next five years or so. I'm getting tired of it.

It is time for the Bucco management to hang on to these guys, especially Bay, Wilson, McLouth, etc., and just open the checkbook and buy them some pitching help.

These guys are good, and I take them at their word that they want to stay here. Just get them to help they need, tell the other GMs to go pound sand, we are not their personal stockroom.

End of rant.


It is sad and disheartening. I can't say I blame them for viewing the Pirates that way given what has happened the past decade and a half. Hopefully those days are almost done and we can soon given them REASON to view us differently.

And, by all means I agree about opening the checkbook. That's a huge problem.


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 Post subject: Re: It's amazing.....
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:44 am 
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It's not the fact that we're viewed as a farm team. A previous poster mentioned the Marlins, the Twins, and the A's as teams that develop talent, and then trade for it in return when they cannot keep it.

The difference is that we don't develop the talent needed to field a competitive team. No one makes fun of the three winning teams on that list because they're successful every year. They poke at the team who cannot field a winning team twice a decade.


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 Post subject: Re: It's amazing.....
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:52 am 
JFlash02 wrote:
It's not the fact that we're viewed as a farm team. A previous poster mentioned the Marlins, the Twins, and the A's as teams that develop talent, and then trade for it in return when they cannot keep it.

The difference is that we don't develop the talent needed to field a competitive team. No one makes fun of the three winning teams on that list because they're successful every year. They poke at the team who cannot field a winning team twice a decade.


Exactly. We need to give them REASON (ie wins) to view the Pirates differently. Until we win, of course they're going to view the Pirates this way.


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 Post subject: Re: It's amazing.....
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:57 am 
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JFlash02 wrote:
They poke at the team who cannot field a winning team twice a decade.


As they should. Hell we do it, why shouldn't we expect others to as well?


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 Post subject: Re: It's amazing.....
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 8:11 pm 
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Steve1118 wrote:
and disheartening a bit to look at the different MLB blogs and see how the other teams in the majors, and their fans, take it for granted that the Buccos are the "farm team" for the rest of the major leagues.

They assume that when the Bucs get good players, (i.e. Jason Bay, Jack Wilson) that PBC is "obligated" to let them go the big boys in exchange for a few guys named Joe who may or may not pan out over the next five years or so. I'm getting tired of it.

It is time for the Bucco management to hang on to these guys, especially Bay, Wilson, McLouth, etc., and just open the checkbook and buy them some pitching help.

These guys are good, and I take them at their word that they want to stay here. Just get them to help they need, tell the other GMs to go pound sand, we are not their personal stockroom.

End of rant.

Let me offer you a little reassurance.

I've lived in Washington, Atlanta, San Francisco and Chicago in addition to Pittsburgh, and I've heard quite a bit of sports talk in Philadelphia and New York. The average Major League fan can't name five prospects from his own team's organization, let alone offer up a decent evaluation of their abilities. How could they possibly evaluate a trade involving prospects from another organization? Coming into this season Tabata was considered a top notch, untouchable prospect. The average Major League fan never even heard of him until the trade. The average poster here is infinitely more knowledgeable than the average Major League fan.

Feel any better?

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 Post subject: Re: It's amazing.....
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:32 am 
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sisyphus wrote:
Steve1118 wrote:
and disheartening a bit to look at the different MLB blogs and see how the other teams in the majors, and their fans, take it for granted that the Buccos are the "farm team" for the rest of the major leagues.

They assume that when the Bucs get good players, (i.e. Jason Bay, Jack Wilson) that PBC is "obligated" to let them go the big boys in exchange for a few guys named Joe who may or may not pan out over the next five years or so. I'm getting tired of it.

It is time for the Bucco management to hang on to these guys, especially Bay, Wilson, McLouth, etc., and just open the checkbook and buy them some pitching help.

These guys are good, and I take them at their word that they want to stay here. Just get them to help they need, tell the other GMs to go pound sand, we are not their personal stockroom.

End of rant.

Let me offer you a little reassurance.

I've lived in Washington, Atlanta, San Francisco and Chicago in addition to Pittsburgh, and I've heard quite a bit of sports talk in Philadelphia and New York. The average Major League fan can't name five prospects from his own team's organization, let alone offer up a decent evaluation of their abilities. How could they possibly evaluate a trade involving prospects from another organization? Coming into this season Tabata was considered a top notch, untouchable prospect. The average Major League fan never even heard of him until the trade. The average poster here is infinitely more knowledgeable than the average Major League fan.

Feel any better?


Yes Sisy, I agree, and of course NY media will downplay the importance or relevance of Tabata after he is traded.

I actually am happy that he is struggling this year, because professional ballplayers need to go through adversity and hopefully it happens in the minors while they are still developing.


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 Post subject: Re: It's amazing.....
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 1:55 am 
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Piratefan13 wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
Steve1118 wrote:
and disheartening a bit to look at the different MLB blogs and see how the other teams in the majors, and their fans, take it for granted that the Buccos are the "farm team" for the rest of the major leagues.

They assume that when the Bucs get good players, (i.e. Jason Bay, Jack Wilson) that PBC is "obligated" to let them go the big boys in exchange for a few guys named Joe who may or may not pan out over the next five years or so. I'm getting tired of it.

It is time for the Bucco management to hang on to these guys, especially Bay, Wilson, McLouth, etc., and just open the checkbook and buy them some pitching help.

These guys are good, and I take them at their word that they want to stay here. Just get them to help they need, tell the other GMs to go pound sand, we are not their personal stockroom.

End of rant.

Let me offer you a little reassurance.

I've lived in Washington, Atlanta, San Francisco and Chicago in addition to Pittsburgh, and I've heard quite a bit of sports talk in Philadelphia and New York. The average Major League fan can't name five prospects from his own team's organization, let alone offer up a decent evaluation of their abilities. How could they possibly evaluate a trade involving prospects from another organization? Coming into this season Tabata was considered a top notch, untouchable prospect. The average Major League fan never even heard of him until the trade. The average poster here is infinitely more knowledgeable than the average Major League fan.

Feel any better?


Yes Sisy, I agree, and of course NY media will downplay the importance or relevance of Tabata after he is traded.

I actually am happy that he is struggling this year, because professional ballplayers need to go through adversity and hopefully it happens in the minors while they are still developing.

He put up an OPS of almost .800 in rookie ball. HE WAS ONLY 16 FREAKING YEARS OLD AT THE TIME!!! That's just flat out amazing. I suspect that a lot of his troubles this year spring from the fact that he is facing adversity for the very first time in his career.

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 Post subject: Re: It's amazing.....
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:25 am 
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sisyphus wrote:
Steve1118 wrote:
and disheartening a bit to look at the different MLB blogs and see how the other teams in the majors, and their fans, take it for granted that the Buccos are the "farm team" for the rest of the major leagues.

They assume that when the Bucs get good players, (i.e. Jason Bay, Jack Wilson) that PBC is "obligated" to let them go the big boys in exchange for a few guys named Joe who may or may not pan out over the next five years or so. I'm getting tired of it.

It is time for the Bucco management to hang on to these guys, especially Bay, Wilson, McLouth, etc., and just open the checkbook and buy them some pitching help.

These guys are good, and I take them at their word that they want to stay here. Just get them to help they need, tell the other GMs to go pound sand, we are not their personal stockroom.

End of rant.

Let me offer you a little reassurance.

I've lived in Washington, Atlanta, San Francisco and Chicago in addition to Pittsburgh, and I've heard quite a bit of sports talk in Philadelphia and New York. The average Major League fan can't name five prospects from his own team's organization, let alone offer up a decent evaluation of their abilities. How could they possibly evaluate a trade involving prospects from another organization? Coming into this season Tabata was considered a top notch, untouchable prospect. The average Major League fan never even heard of him until the trade. The average poster here is infinitely more knowledgeable than the average Major League fan.

Feel any better?


All this guy has done for two days is bitch and moan. Why do you guys bother responding when it's obvious he only wants attention?


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 Post subject: Re: It's amazing.....
PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 12:02 am 
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Jeremy wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
Steve1118 wrote:
and disheartening a bit to look at the different MLB blogs and see how the other teams in the majors, and their fans, take it for granted that the Buccos are the "farm team" for the rest of the major leagues.

They assume that when the Bucs get good players, (i.e. Jason Bay, Jack Wilson) that PBC is "obligated" to let them go the big boys in exchange for a few guys named Joe who may or may not pan out over the next five years or so. I'm getting tired of it.

It is time for the Bucco management to hang on to these guys, especially Bay, Wilson, McLouth, etc., and just open the checkbook and buy them some pitching help.

These guys are good, and I take them at their word that they want to stay here. Just get them to help they need, tell the other GMs to go pound sand, we are not their personal stockroom.

End of rant.

Let me offer you a little reassurance.

I've lived in Washington, Atlanta, San Francisco and Chicago in addition to Pittsburgh, and I've heard quite a bit of sports talk in Philadelphia and New York. The average Major League fan can't name five prospects from his own team's organization, let alone offer up a decent evaluation of their abilities. How could they possibly evaluate a trade involving prospects from another organization? Coming into this season Tabata was considered a top notch, untouchable prospect. The average Major League fan never even heard of him until the trade. The average poster here is infinitely more knowledgeable than the average Major League fan.

Feel any better?


All this guy has done for two days is bitch and moan. Why do you guys bother responding when it's obvious he only wants attention?

Well now, if you'd bother to look at the date of the post you were replying to, you would note that I submitted it two days ago, in response to what I believe was the first post of Steve's that I had ever read.

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 Post subject: Re: It's amazing.....
PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 12:23 am 
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I'm really still not sold on Tabata. If he were merely not producing in AA, I'd be more ok with him, but the behavioral problems concern me. The haul they got for Bay though...just wow. Awesome. That trade might define a wild card contending team in two years. As much criticism as Huntington deserves for the Nady trade, he deserves praise for the Bay trade.

Bay had a triple in the 12th and scored both runs for the Sox tonight.


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 Post subject: Re: It's amazing.....
PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 12:06 pm 
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Does anyone realize Neal set himself up for the Bay trade...Nady and Marte brought some nice talent...so then he just set Bay's asking price higher and it came through...

8 players for 3, 1 which was gone after this season and 2 who are gone after next season...There should be no Neal bashing...

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 Post subject: Re: It's amazing.....
PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 7:30 pm 
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nad69dan wrote:
8 players for 3, 1 which was gone after this season and 2 who are gone after next season...There should be no Neal bashing...


I want the Pirates to sign Nady as a free agent ... I miss his bat in the line-up. He was a very good player for the Pirates this year and is hitting really well for the &*#@*&%$ Yankees.


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 Post subject: Re: It's amazing.....
PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 7:39 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
nad69dan wrote:
8 players for 3, 1 which was gone after this season and 2 who are gone after next season...There should be no Neal bashing...


I want the Pirates to sign Nady as a free agent ... I miss his bat in the line-up. He was a very good player for the Pirates this year and is hitting really well for the &*#@*&%$ Yankees.

And next year his OPS will be within 50 points of Brandon Moss and both Laroches, possibly to the south side. There is nothing wrong with Nady, but there's nothing special about him either, this year aside.

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 Post subject: Re: It's amazing.....
PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 10:20 pm 
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sisyphus wrote:
Bucfan wrote:
I want the Pirates to sign Nady as a free agent ... I miss his bat in the line-up. He was a very good player for the Pirates this year and is hitting really well for the &*#@*&%$ Yankees.

And next year his OPS will be within 50 points of Brandon Moss and both Laroches, possibly to the south side. There is nothing wrong with Nady, but there's nothing special about him either, this year aside.


We are just going to disagree on this. Nady had a very good first half last season, posting an OPS of .850 with 14 HR's and 50 RBI's before the all-star break, but his second half was plagued by a leg injury where he was kept on the active roster and not put on the DL. He was never given a chance to heal and not healthy the second half.

He is healthy this year and hitting very well. He hit in PNC and is hitting in Yankee Stadium - two places not very kind to right-handed hitters. He hits well with runners in scoring position, and just kills fastballs on the outer half of the plate. He crushes those balls into the gap or into the stands.

He has hit very well for about 200 games (90 last year before the injury and 110 this year). This kind of productivity, over that span of time, is not a hot streak, or a career year, or an aberration. It is a sign of a very good hitter who is going to remain a good hitter for another 3 years.

I get that he will not be signed as a free agent. He is represented by Boras, is hitting the crap out of the ball, can actually play defense, and is now hitting in New York during a pennant chase. That production means he is out of the Pirates' price range - and means that he is not having a "Gary Matthews, Jr." moment.


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 Post subject: Re: It's amazing.....
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 12:36 am 
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Baseball needs to have a limit on how much a team can and cannot spend similiar to hockey. Its just out of hand 200milion payrolls to 30 million payrolls.

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