Proud fans of a 128-year old tradition

It is currently Tue Sep 02, 2014 8:40 am

All times are UTC - 4 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 144 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Pirates Start 5-yr Plan #4
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 12:53 pm 
Willton wrote:
Elmer wrote:
That reminds me, if you're going to use the "wait and see" approach regarding the Nady/Marte deal (in other words, not going by the lukewarm reports on the 3 pitchers the Pirates got), how can you do the opposite in judging the draft already?

(AHEM-double-standard-AHEM)

Do you see me taking the "wait-and-see" approach in the Nady/Marte deal?


What is your take, then? On the real deal, not the phony reported one. Did they get enough? Are you OK with the projections that see Olendorff in the pen longterm, Kerstens as a long man and McCutchen as a No. 4 starter?


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Pirates Start 5-yr Plan #4
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:59 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:52 pm
Posts: 5141
Location: Pittsburgh
Piratefan13 wrote:
ZelieMike wrote:
Ummm, no. I only have an arguement because of performance? That's a new tact.

Look, the guys you want signed to play, were signed and in place. You have what you want. The core guys signed a reasonable contracts within their prime. What else do you want? Oh, ok, PERFORMANCE.

Of course I have an arguement because of the pitching. That is the point. If those guys had performed, we would be adding players to make the playoffs. They didn't, and holding guys through their prime until they are past it, and negotiating the big end-of-career contract whilst you wait for the rest to catch up, is a disaster. It already happened with Giles, Kendall and crew. You've already read this book.

You (the Buds) took your shot. I liked the core coming in. I thought it had a chance. It doesn't. It time to retool.

ZM



So poor performance is Huntington's fault, I'm not understanding you. He signed a guy who won a batting title and just completed his second season with an above .300 average, and he signed a guy who had a solid year pitching with an ERA in the 3s who still has upside. So your argument about holding guys past their prime is correct, that's why Nady is gone, because he is in his prime right now and all indications are that it won't be long.

If you are referring to Bay being past his prime, you couldn't be more incorrect. Trading away Bay now will be similiar to us letting Bonds go. I have no desire to watch Bay hit 30hr's and knock in 100 runs for some other team for the next 10 years.

You are WAY overstating your argument. Jason Bay doesn't even have wet dreams about becoming Barry Bonds. Whether he was a freak of nature, a freak of modern chemistry, or a little of both, nobody in the history of the game had a career path in his 30's like Bonds'. It is unlikely that any of us will live to seen anyone match it.

_________________
"Enjoy every sandwich." - Warren Zevon


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Pirates Start 5-yr Plan #4
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:14 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:52 pm
Posts: 5141
Location: Pittsburgh
jaybee24 wrote:
I don't know the numbers offhand, but I'm willing to bet that even though Aaron, Mays, and Stargell hit a good number of home runs after age 32, their home run rate per at bat declined after that age compared to what they were doing in their 20s. Absolute numbers don't really tell you anything.

Not so for Aaron, His home run rate improved from around 1/16 ABs to around 1/14 ABs. Of course, he had the benefit of moving from a pitchers park in Milwaukee to the launching pad in Atlanta at the age of 32. Stargell probably benefitted from the move to Three Rivers from Forbes as well. I didn't check the HR rates for Stargell or Mays, but you're certainly right about Mays.

_________________
"Enjoy every sandwich." - Warren Zevon


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Pirates Start 5-yr Plan #4
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:19 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:52 pm
Posts: 5141
Location: Pittsburgh
Elmer wrote:
Willton wrote:
Don't assume that all or even most of the scouts were incompetent under DL's tenure. It's entirely possible that DL, Graham, and Creech were disregarding their input.

Ever had a great idea for your company only to have it turned down by a lousy boss? If the company does poorly as a result, who's fault is it?


That might be true in some cases and not in others. The fact that basically none were changed is a concern.

You have something of a point there, but take note of this year's draft. It looks to me like Littlefield was listening to his own muse.

_________________
"Enjoy every sandwich." - Warren Zevon


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Pirates Start 5-yr Plan #4
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:20 pm 
NH made a great trade yesterday. There is NO NEED for this to be a 5-year plan. He needs to build for a winner in 2009 and definitely by 2010.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Pirates Start 5-yr Plan #4
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:36 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:52 pm
Posts: 5141
Location: Pittsburgh
Elmer wrote:
NH made a great trade yesterday. There is NO NEED for this to be a 5-year plan. He needs to build for a winner in 2009 and definitely by 2010.

This team will not be a winner in 2009 unless they are very, very lucky.

_________________
"Enjoy every sandwich." - Warren Zevon


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Pirates Start 5-yr Plan #4
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:41 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 7:01 pm
Posts: 7248
I agree 2009 is not looking good, 2010 or 2011 yes...some of these guys they just traded for need to get to Pittsburgh 1st...some next season, some the year after...

But there is always a chance....viva la 1997...

_________________
I say keep the $50 and ban him anyway...

For those jumping ship, we'll keep the bandwagon warm for you...


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Pirates Start 5-yr Plan #4
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:53 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:44 pm
Posts: 10582
sisyphus wrote:
Elmer wrote:
NH made a great trade yesterday. There is NO NEED for this to be a 5-year plan. He needs to build for a winner in 2009 and definitely by 2010.

This team will not be a winner in 2009 unless they are very, very lucky.


Power arms + power bats = good results.

The power arms are here. Snell, Bautista, Capps, Hansen, Yates, Ohlendorf, Dumatrait (remember his 92-93 mph fastball against the Cubs in May??), Karstens (?? 92-94 mph today - who knew????), and possibly McCutchen. Add on the lefties at 91-92 mph (Burnett and Grabow), and that is a big group of power arms. Not a Franquie Osoria in the group. Paul Maholm at 90-92 with regularity and throwing strikes, getting guys out.

Meanwhile, Morris dealing in the minors, Meek moved up to AAA and having success with 96 mph stuff. Lots and lots of power arms.

HR power? McLouth, Doumit, Laroche, Laroche the elder (maybe ... still not sold on the guy).

That group will win some games. 95? No. But more than the collection of some really good players, lots of bad ones that have been on the field in the past years.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Pirates Start 5-yr Plan #4
PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 1:24 am 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2008 10:41 pm
Posts: 843
Hey, if it's enough to win 87, that's enough to win the wild card in the NL or even the NL central in some years (2006).

I have the worst feeling that after all these deals, the Pirates still have no quality pitching. Remember when Zach Duke's name was spoken in the same breath as Felix Hernandez? When it comes to him, I wish it were 2005 again...


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Pirates Start 5-yr Plan #4
PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 12:14 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 7:01 pm
Posts: 7248
Bucfan wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
Elmer wrote:
NH made a great trade yesterday. There is NO NEED for this to be a 5-year plan. He needs to build for a winner in 2009 and definitely by 2010.

This team will not be a winner in 2009 unless they are very, very lucky.


Power arms + power bats = good results.

The power arms are here. Snell, Bautista, Capps, Hansen, Yates, Ohlendorf, Dumatrait (remember his 92-93 mph fastball against the Cubs in May??), Karstens (?? 92-94 mph today - who knew????), and possibly McCutchen. Add on the lefties at 91-92 mph (Burnett and Grabow), and that is a big group of power arms. Not a Franquie Osoria in the group. Paul Maholm at 90-92 with regularity and throwing strikes, getting guys out.

Meanwhile, Morris dealing in the minors, Meek moved up to AAA and having success with 96 mph stuff. Lots and lots of power arms.

HR power? McLouth, Doumit, Laroche, Laroche the elder (maybe ... still not sold on the guy).

That group will win some games. 95? No. But more than the collection of some really good players, lots of bad ones that have been on the field in the past years.


Bucfan,

I agree with you power arms and big bats will make good results, I just think its gonna take a year for this team to gel and get some experience under their belts...

Is it possible for a 2009 winning season? Yes, but its not that probable...but 2010 is looking good...

This team is going to be exciting to watch the rest of this year and beyond

_________________
I say keep the $50 and ban him anyway...

For those jumping ship, we'll keep the bandwagon warm for you...


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Pirates Start 5-yr Plan #4
PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 1:39 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:44 pm
Posts: 10582
nad69dan wrote:
I agree with you power arms and big bats will make good results, I just think its gonna take a year for this team to gel and get some experience under their belts...


No doubt. But I feel that this group will be better than a lot of people think. Power arms + power bats win more games, earlier, than you might normally expect. The 2003 Marlins are an example.

Please, for heaven's sake board members, I am not comparing the Pirates to the 2003 Marlins ... well, maybe in 2 years I will be. A few big bats (Derek Lee, Miguel Cabrera vs. McLouth, Doumit, A. Laroche), the power arms (Beckett, Burnett, Pavano vs. Snell, Ohlendorf, Morris, Scheppers when signed). A proven formula.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Pirates Start 5-yr Plan #4
PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 3:38 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 7:01 pm
Posts: 7248
I think they can too, but it all depends on how much and how far they progress this season either up on the big league team or in the minors...

The talent potential is there, some lumps and bumps of real playing time will help the process...

I cant wait to see this team be competitive from here on out...Doumit, McLouth, Pearce, Moss, McCutchen, and the LaRoche Brothers are going to be a nice offensive team...

_________________
I say keep the $50 and ban him anyway...

For those jumping ship, we'll keep the bandwagon warm for you...


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Pirates Start 5-yr Plan #4
PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 11:10 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:43 pm
Posts: 273
Offense wasn't the problem, as I see it.

I sure hope this deal works out, and I am rooting for it, but in the last 18 innings against the Cubbies they've scored four runs. I really think with Bay and Nady there may have been a few more, and I will also agree that the Cubbies probably would have gotten more, too.

I am still skeptical that we may have traded away our best for "prospects" that we may never hear of again, just like every other deal we pull off around this time.

We'll see. The deal is done, and there is no going back. But, I sure am going to miss watching the home runs. You can pitch around McLouth and Doumit now, so thier production may drop off.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Pirates Start 5-yr Plan #4
PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 4:12 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 7:01 pm
Posts: 7248
The Cubs beat the Ba-Jesus out of the Pirates with Nady and Bay in the lineup before...

Is it possible that these prospects wont work? Yes
But its a risk worth taking because these young guys will be under contract for a lot longer than the just one more year that Nady and Bay would have been and after their contracts would have expired their asking price would have been super high...

Now, you got legit prospects, not like the crap like Shawn Chacon and Jose Hernandez and Cesar Izturis, who are under the Pirates control for a nice time period and wont cost huge amounts of cash

Neal Huntington and Co. is building for the future and the future sadly was not with Bay and Nady...

In the past 2 weeks Neal just brought in 8 guys for 3, all of whom have good potential and wont take long to get here...

_________________
I say keep the $50 and ban him anyway...

For those jumping ship, we'll keep the bandwagon warm for you...


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Pirates Start 5-yr Plan #4
PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 4:31 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2008 4:21 pm
Posts: 52
If indeed we are starting a 5-year plan, then we have to look at it wiht facts. Because the only thing Frank Coonelly and Neal Huntington can be accused of is doing what they said they would do when they were hired!

Over the past 6 months they have:

• Reestablished a presence in Latin America with the new facility and signed a few potential future MLB players
• Signed a couple of our up-n-coming stars to long term contracts (Sanchez, Snell, etc)
• Released or sent to the minors whose who did not perform up to major league standards (Even eating the 10 million dollar contract of Matt Morris)
• Established system-wide standards for all levels of the organization and established a new culture in the organization (something the players have commented on several times)
• Drafted for talent, even drafted a Scott Boras client number 1 (he will be signed by August 15th). Only time will tell, but this is probably the best draft class we have had in 15 years.
• With the trade deadline deals they are currently restocking the major and minor league teams with young talent, something that was necessary because of the barren farm system left by the former regime.

By the time August 15th is pass, they will have established a blueprint for a new way of doing business for the Pittsburgh Pirates for years to come.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Pirates Start 5-yr Plan #4
PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 4:48 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 4:56 pm
Posts: 58
Location: Rillton, PA
i couldnt agree more. NH has said all along our actions will back up our words just give us time. So far his words and actions have matched up. Like the trades or hate them, it sends a message up and down the organization, fight for your spot or loose it, we are going to bring in young talent, rebuild this team, and your going to perform or get passed over. (See paulino, gorzo, bautista)

_________________
________________________
love 'em or hate 'em lets go bucs!


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Pirates Start 5-yr Plan #4
PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 5:02 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 2:14 pm
Posts: 385
jleisele58 wrote:
our actions will back up our words just give us time. So far his words and actions have matched up. Like the trades or hate them, it sends a message up and down the organization, fight for your spot or loose it, we are going to bring in young talent, rebuild this team, and your going to perform or get passed over. (See paulino, gorzo, bautista)


You forgot the other actions that back up the balance sheet..... perform well, be near the end of your contract term, you're going to be traded because you're going to cost too much. I'm sure the trades sent that message up and down the organization too.(see proven players who fought and earned spots, then traded)

_________________
Image


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Pirates Start 5-yr Plan #4
PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 5:09 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 4:56 pm
Posts: 58
Location: Rillton, PA
the only player traded because of money issues was marte, and rightfully so, why would you pay 6 mil for a setup man. bay and nady had another year under their contracts. so for once this trade was about collecting young talent and not dumping salaries.

_________________
________________________
love 'em or hate 'em lets go bucs!


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Pirates Start 5-yr Plan #4
PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 5:14 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2008 4:21 pm
Posts: 52
I respectfully disagree with your statement. We don't know if proven talent will continue to be traded away when their contract is up. We haven't had a good team for 15 years. We will have to wait and see when the team is "championship caliber" with what happens to the stars then. Until that point of development it is purely speculation. My take on it is (again speculation) that we will lock up the main pieces and trade away disposible parts to retool the flow of talent coming through the minors. This is how all small market teams do business without the help of a salary cap.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Pirates Start 5-yr Plan #4
PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 5:24 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 2:14 pm
Posts: 385
preach1 wrote:
I respectfully disagree with your statement. We don't know if proven talent will continue to be traded away when their contract is up. We haven't had a good team for 15 years. We will have to wait and see when the team is "championship caliber" with what happens to the stars then. Until that point of development it is purely speculation. My take on it is (again speculation) that we will lock up the main pieces and trade away disposible parts to retool the flow of talent coming through the minors. This is how all small market teams do business without the help of a salary cap.


Jason Bay is not a main piece? Jason Bay is a disposible part? It has not been by pure luck that during the 16 years of losing, the payroll is always in the bottom tier. I'll grant you the small market team, but this is also a tightwad owner team, and there has been not one indication the team will spend near the MLB average. Keep buying the same old spin.

_________________
Image


Top
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 144 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next

All times are UTC - 4 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot] and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group  
Design By Poker Bandits