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 Post subject: Who becomes my new favorite team
PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 11:49 pm 
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Since Neal Huntington has essentially pulled the trigger on himself by agreeing to a trade that essentially eliminated this team's shot to win in 2010, I'm open to all suggestions for my new favorite baseball team.

...how does one become a fan of another team outside of their home turf?


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 Post subject: Re: Who becomes my new favorite team
PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 11:55 pm 
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You don't.


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 Post subject: Re: Who becomes my new favorite team
PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 12:03 am 
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Let's overreact a little bit....after the last 15 years you are going to tell me that this trade, before we see any of the players involved play, is the move that causes you to jump off the cliff?

Let's remember we traded Xavier "I've never stayed healthy an entire year" Nady. And for the record I like how he plays the game and acknowledge he is having a great year. But we didn't trade Babe Ruth. The guy is having a career year and yes that makes his trade value higher, but other teams are aware what he has done to this point in his entire career. The part of the trade I'm a little disappointed in is throwing in Marte. But Huntingdon has seemed pretty keen at eyeing talent so maybe there is something in a couple of these guys he likes. All 3 pitchers have good strikeout rates and some decent other numbers. In other words maybe they weren't considered top prospects but they don't look like stiffs either. And if Tabata equals what people think he will then we got a pretty darn good player.


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 Post subject: Re: Who becomes my new favorite team
PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 12:38 am 
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PirateParrot wrote:
Let's overreact a little bit....after the last 15 years you are going to tell me that this trade, before we see any of the players involved play, is the move that causes you to jump off the cliff?

Let's remember we traded Xavier "I've never stayed healthy an entire year" Nady. And for the record I like how he plays the game and acknowledge he is having a great year. But we didn't trade Babe Ruth. The guy is having a career year and yes that makes his trade value higher, but other teams are aware what he has done to this point in his entire career. The part of the trade I'm a little disappointed in is throwing in Marte. But Huntingdon has seemed pretty keen at eyeing talent so maybe there is something in a couple of these guys he likes. All 3 pitchers have good strikeout rates and some decent other numbers. In other words maybe they weren't considered top prospects but they don't look like stiffs either. And if Tabata equals what people think he will then we got a pretty darn good player.


Come on man, you can't be defending this trade? Experts from ESPN to Baseball Pospectus are saying it was a bad deal. You're speaking of the trade based on how you hope it turns out instead of how experts are projecting it will work out.


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 Post subject: Re: Who becomes my new favorite team
PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 12:52 am 
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Zane41 wrote:
Come on man, you can't be defending this trade? Experts from ESPN to Baseball Pospectus are saying it was a bad deal. You're speaking of the trade based on how you hope it turns out instead of how experts are projecting it will work out.


We really DON'T know. Take a peek at the experts yearly projections and see how off the radar they end up being.

Would I have liked something else? Sure, but I don't think the Rays were looking to give up Kazmir or Upton for Nady.

Nady's value was high, so NH pulled the trigger. Obviously, winning now doesn't seem to be an option, so gather up some prospects.

Of course we're going to look at it how we hope it will turn out. What's the point of doomsdaying? Not a single expert outside of St. Petersburg had the Rays doing crap this year.


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 Post subject: Re: Who becomes my new favorite team
PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 12:54 am 
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Crushzilla wrote:
Zane41 wrote:
Come on man, you can't be defending this trade? Experts from ESPN to Baseball Pospectus are saying it was a bad deal. You're speaking of the trade based on how you hope it turns out instead of how experts are projecting it will work out.


We really DON'T know. Take a peek at the experts yearly projections and see how off the radar they end up being.

Would I have liked something else? Sure, but I don't think the Rays were looking to give up Kazmir or Upton for Nady.

Nady's value was high, so NH pulled the trigger. Obviously, winning now doesn't seem to be an option, so gather up some prospects.

Of course we're going to look at it how we hope it will turn out. What's the point of doomsdaying? Not a single expert outside of St. Petersburg had the Rays doing crap this year.


Of course sometimes experts are wrong, but when other GMs are saying "you've got to be kidding me" about what the team got in return, it was a bad deal. You can't view this trade based on hope, you've got to view it objectively.


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 Post subject: Re: Who becomes my new favorite team
PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 1:01 am 
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Zane41 wrote:
Of course sometimes experts are wrong, but when other GMs are saying "you've got to be kidding me" about what the team got in return, it was a bad deal. You can't view this trade based on hope, you've got to view it objectively.


I hear ya, but this trade can't really be viewed objectively. One team in a division title race and one... erhm... rebuilding. The needs are different. I love X, but he wasn't exactly the future. Now we have a sure-fire CF and maybe Cutch or Tabata can develop into what they are supposed to be.

The outfield didn't really need to be addressed, but you lose one, you grab one, I suppose.

What we needed WAS addressed.

Of course the other GMs are mad... Its the Yankees :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Who becomes my new favorite team
PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 1:44 am 
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We have ZERO pitching depth! ZERO!

Huntington has proven to be a decent judge of talent and I will give him the benefit of the doubt on this one.

I think plugging Doug M. and Jason Michaels in will do okay and we can probably get a good look at McCuthceon in August and September, more so than if Xavier were still here.

Now if he blows up the team completely and trades Bay and Wilson in similar deals then I am done and join Eric in his walk out.


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 Post subject: Re: Who becomes my new favorite team
PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:00 am 
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Corsair wrote:
We have ZERO pitching depth! ZERO!

Huntington has proven to be a decent judge of talent and I will give him the benefit of the doubt on this one.

I think plugging Doug M. and Jason Michaels in will do okay and we can probably get a good look at McCuthceon in August and September, more so than if Xavier were still here.

Now if he blows up the team completely and trades Bay and Wilson in similar deals then I am done and join Eric in his walk out.


I'm not advocating Eric's walkout, but I also don't see how you can say NH has "proven" himself to be a "decent" judge of talent? What has he done to prove this? He hasn't made any MAJOR moves until now. He's made some midlevel and minor moves, some good and bad, so that's not "proven" is it?

He should be praised for his acquisitions of Menky, Gomez, Dumatrait and Michales. But if you praise him for those, you kind of need to criticize him for banking on Gorzo and Snell, for continuing to send JVB out there, going after BH Kim, etc. You need to view the whole picture, not just the good.


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 Post subject: Re: Who becomes my new favorite team
PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:25 am 
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Zane41 wrote:
Come on man, you can't be defending this trade? Experts from ESPN to Baseball Pospectus are saying it was a bad deal. You're speaking of the trade based on how you hope it turns out instead of how experts are projecting it will work out.

For the record, it's 1:24 AM on Saturday and nothing good or bad has been said about this trade by Baseball Prospectus.

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 Post subject: Re: Who becomes my new favorite team
PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:40 am 
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Willton wrote:
Zane41 wrote:
Come on man, you can't be defending this trade? Experts from ESPN to Baseball Pospectus are saying it was a bad deal. You're speaking of the trade based on how you hope it turns out instead of how experts are projecting it will work out.

For the record, it's 1:24 AM on Saturday and nothing good or bad has been said about this trade by Baseball Prospectus.


Kevin Goldstein of Baseball Prospectus was a guest on the Pirates post-game show on the radio tonight. He was pretty down on the dea.

Goldstein brought up character/work ethic issues with Tabata, noting that he's a out of shape, doesn't always hustle, once left the team mid-game.

He predicted a ceiling of the bullpen for Ohlendorf and Kontos. He called Coke an "organizational pitcher" who may not have a major league impact at all.

Goldstein also talked about how other teams had offered what seemed to be more earlier in the week and that the market for Marte especially would make it seem the Pirates could have gotten more.

Just one BP guy, but take the interview for what it's worth.


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 Post subject: Re: Who becomes my new favorite team
PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 6:51 am 
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Zane41 wrote:
He should be praised for his acquisitions of Menky, Gomez, Dumatrait and Michales.


I totally agree with this and I feel like these guys have really stepped it up when necessary.

Zane41 wrote:
But if you praise him for those, you kind of need to criticize him for banking on Gorzo and Snell, for continuing to send JVB out there, going after BH Kim, etc. You need to view the whole picture, not just the good.


I think for a lot of us, we were also banking on Snell and Gorzo after their performances last year. Snell was a strike out leader and with a full season in the rotation under his belt, should have performed a lot better than he has this year. Gorzo lead the team with 14 wins and, maybe with a better offense last year, could have had several more wins (not saying that good offense reflects good pitching).

The whole JVB thing sure does puzzle me, but we really don't have much else to choose from.

And as far as Kim goes, in my book that deal has long been done and forgotten with no real negative consequences.

I heard the BP guy being interviewed last night with Rocco and I feel like that this wasn't the best we could have gotten, but let us give this the rest of the season to pan out, then make a judgment. The only thing that makes me sad is the odds of us seeing .500 (even before the game was over last night) vanished.


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 Post subject: Re: Who becomes my new favorite team
PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 8:54 am 
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You have no idea what was offered or declined. Eric has no idea. Kevin Goldstein has no idea.

That should be your starting point.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Who becomes my new favorite team
PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 9:36 am 
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I'm not entirely happy either but I feel it's better than staying put. Besides I don't think anyone of us is a good enough scout/evaluator to make a definite judgment.

Another thing that came to my mind... (not addressing anyone in particular) what would you have said, after the 2005 season, if this is what we got for Rob Mackowiak and Oliver Perez?


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 Post subject: Re: Who becomes my new favorite team
PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 10:02 am 
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Eric Bowser wrote:
Since Neal Huntington has essentially pulled the trigger on himself by agreeing to a trade that essentially eliminated this team's shot to win in 2010, I'm open to all suggestions for my new favorite baseball team.

...how does one become a fan of another team outside of their home turf?


rip me all you want but I dont have another favorite baseball team. I view the Pirates like a brother or sister gone bad. They will always be my brother but I'm not going to support their ways when they dont show any interest in trying to better themselves

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 Post subject: Re: Who becomes my new favorite team
PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 10:53 am 
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ZelieMike wrote:
You have no idea what was offered or declined. Eric has no idea. Kevin Goldstein has no idea.

That should be your starting point.

ZM


No I don't, but other GMs and baseball execs who contact Buster Olney do know. Look, this isn't the end of the word or the nail in the coffin, as some are suggesting. But let's call a spade a spade here and not meake excuses for the guy. According to the majority of people who make a living evaluating this kind of thing, thePirates didn't get enough for Marte/Nady. It's a bad trade.


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 Post subject: Re: Who becomes my new favorite team
PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 11:33 am 
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I think a lot of it comes from the Yankees benefiting from the trade. Everybody hates them so they get mad when they get better.

As for the majority of the people saying that, Olney is the only one who made such statements that I know of. If you look at the Olney thread on this board, I have some links in there that actually lean the other way.

Like with most trades involving prospects, you need to (cliche time) wait and see.

The thing I do know is the knee jerk reaction from fans comparing him to DL is unfair.

NH does not have a track record yet. He made one trade involving Torres and it didn't work out too good so far.

So we need to be patient because the Pirates are rebuilding no matter what they say. He got four players who might or might not help the process.

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 Post subject: Re: Who becomes my new favorite team
PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 11:53 am 
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Here is something to think about....

First on the Torres deal. He traded an aging, disgruntled player. Probably didn't want to saddle the new manager with that to deal with. Torres is having a decent year, but what did people really think he would bring back in return.

As for this deal, we weren't going anywhere with Nady and Marte on the team. Yes, they were important parts to this CURRENT team. But this CURRENT team is not going to be a winner. One of the things that has saddled this team drastically is pitching depth. They got three pitchers back in this deal. Now maybe they weren't names(Ian Kennedy) that people recognize but if you look at their numbers they are pretty decent...certainly not junk. And some(obviously not Buster Olney) think a couple have pretty high ceilings. Then we took a chance on a 5 tool guy. A guy who is only 19 and at AA already. Again certainly worth the risk. So my thinking is that maybe this was the only team offering that number of pitchers in return. And Huntington knows that he needs to fill up the organization with better pitching. By the numbers these guys are all an upgrade over anyone we have at AAA or AA, or heck even in the majors to some degree. Plus we got a potential superstar OF.

If I'm being honest I wish we would have maybe traded Nady and Marte separately. Maybe we lose one of the pitchers if we only deal Nady. But then we get more for Marte. Who knows? But at this point rather than look at rankings and listen to people bitch because as Bucco Boy said the "Yankees got better", lets look at it as Huntington filled a HUGE need in this organization...well, he started to. As far as I'm concerned for this to be successful only 2 of these four have to make an impact on the major league team. Marte was leaving after this year, and Nady next. So if 2 of the 4 pan out then I think it has to be a success. And looking at their numbers I think it is fair to think that all 4 will probably be in Pittsburgh someday.


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 Post subject: Re: Who becomes my new favorite team
PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 11:55 am 
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Zane41 wrote:
Crushzilla wrote:
Zane41 wrote:
Come on man, you can't be defending this trade? Experts from ESPN to Baseball Pospectus are saying it was a bad deal. You're speaking of the trade based on how you hope it turns out instead of how experts are projecting it will work out.


We really DON'T know. Take a peek at the experts yearly projections and see how off the radar they end up being.

Would I have liked something else? Sure, but I don't think the Rays were looking to give up Kazmir or Upton for Nady.

Nady's value was high, so NH pulled the trigger. Obviously, winning now doesn't seem to be an option, so gather up some prospects.

Of course we're going to look at it how we hope it will turn out. What's the point of doomsdaying? Not a single expert outside of St. Petersburg had the Rays doing crap this year.


Of course sometimes experts are wrong, but when other GMs are saying "you've got to be kidding me" about what the team got in return, it was a bad deal. You can't view this trade based on hope, you've got to view it objectively.

Those are the same GMs who were claiming that Huntingdon's asking price was ridiculously high the day before the deal.

The lesson is that you shouldn't believe anything these guys say. Before the deal they were trying to get the Bucs to lower their asking price. After the deal they're spewing sour grapes.

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 Post subject: Re: Who becomes my new favorite team
PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 11:57 am 
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Corsair wrote:
We have ZERO pitching depth! ZERO!

Huntington has proven to be a decent judge of talent and I will give him the benefit of the doubt on this one.

I think plugging Doug M. and Jason Michaels in will do okay and we can probably get a good look at McCuthceon in August and September, more so than if Xavier were still here.

Now if he blows up the team completely and trades Bay and Wilson in similar deals then I am done and join Eric in his walk out.

Why would you say that when you have no idea what he might get in return for Bay and Wilson?

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