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 Post subject: Humiliating!!!
PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 5:45 pm 
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Sorry, folks, but I think it's really very, very embarrassing to be swept by the Colorado Rockies, and that appears to be what is going to happen. I can't believe that a team that was supposed to be rebuilding through pitching can have such ugly, beastly pitching!!! I don't think it can get much worse for our guys than it is right now. Who, if anyone, is going to right the ship?


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 Post subject: Re: Humiliating!!!
PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 5:51 pm 
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It is going to take an admission that rebuilding is the only path to success.

NH needs to blow this thing up completely...

Trade Bay
Trade Nady
Trade Grabow
Trade anyone that can bring back younger value

Keep Marte for the compensatory draft picks...

In doing so, NH and Coonelly will need to explain to the fanbase why it is necessary and work to build trust and faith in their plan.

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 Post subject: Re: Humiliating!!!
PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 7:20 pm 
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At least this ends all this silly talk about not trading players because we can win with this team.

If you want to be mad at the Pirates, be mad. But don't be mad at NH if he blows this thing up. The minor leagues need to be rebuilt before the major league team can even think about competing.

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 Post subject: Re: Humiliating!!!
PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 8:04 pm 
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The '08 Pirates are fun only on those rare occasions when they string together a couple of good games in a row, which they've done only twice since June 21. And there probably aren't going to be many more the rest of the way either.

Yours truly and wife spent Saturday afternoon sitting high above where Bobby Abreu positions himself in RF in Yankee Stadium. Watched Joba Chamberlain pitch six strong innings. Abreau, A-Rod, and Giambi went a combined 0-for-11 and left 14 runners on base. And the great Mariano Rivera sucked: allowing the go-ahead run on two hits and two stolen bases. Yet, the Yankees won in the bottom of the 12th. And although neither they nor the A's may make the playoffs this season, there still were 54,183 fannies in the seats under a blazing sun in 94-degree weather. Made me realize just how far the Pirates have to go to become competitive. As disappointing as the Yankees and A's are to their fans, they're both better than the Pirates are likely to be for at least the next two years, if not longer.

Reality bites.

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 Post subject: Re: Humiliating!!!
PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 8:53 pm 
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I too am embarrassed by our team. It should help some of us realize that trading those with talent who are going to leave anyway, is the course that NH must take.

Here we go again with this post All-Star swoon. Notice how few posters care anymore. So, we wait and watch until next spring in hopes that in the interim, we notice some good things.

I'll be here reading and posting if some of you stay active. If you don't I'll see you in the off season. or spring.

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2011 Will Be Our Year -- well make that 2012 (just saying) So it looks like 2013 now - how long must this go on!
THIS IS IT-- NO MORE STREAK!!! *** Finally*** Time to win it in 2014


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 Post subject: Re: Humiliating!!!
PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 10:17 pm 
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Sub, I for one, could never abandon my beloved Buccos. I've been a fan since 1959, and will die (I hope not too soon) a Bucco fan. I follow very closely everything that happens with the team, and surely hope that the new management team knows what they are doing. If it means trading J-Bay and X-man, so be it. IF, they receive "quality" prospects in return. If I was NH, I definitely wouldn't trade any player unless I felt 99% certain that the prospects will improve the team. If other teams think the asking price is too high....let them rot! Bay and Nady both are signed through 2009 and this should increase their value. I anxiously await NH's strategy....and the forthcoming....whatever!! Go Bucs!


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 Post subject: Re: Humiliating!!!
PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 10:39 pm 
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Iknow, me too. I'm just pissed.

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2011 Will Be Our Year -- well make that 2012 (just saying) So it looks like 2013 now - how long must this go on!
THIS IS IT-- NO MORE STREAK!!! *** Finally*** Time to win it in 2014


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 Post subject: Re: Humiliating!!!
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 11:05 am 
If there was any doubt about whether this team should be "buyers" or "sellers" at the deadline, this series sealed that.


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 Post subject: Re: Humiliating!!!
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 6:25 pm 
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Substitute2 wrote:
Notice how few posters care anymore.


Sub -
Speaking solely for myself . . . My lack of posting here recently has absolutely nothing to do with "caring" about whether this team wins or loses now or in the future. It is a function of being bombarded at work and not being able to see the team on TV as much as I would like.

While I likely know the results, I would love to be in front of the TV tonight watching JVB pitch. Instead, I'll be on a plane from Okie City to the Windy City. I hope to catch the last half of the game on the drive home.

Right now, trade rumors/suggestions seem to dominate the conversation here. I admittedly don't follow the minor leagues and have nothing of any substance to add with respect to who might be attractive targets. And, to be frank, I'm bracing myself for (what I consider to be the inevitable) the posts criticizing NH for getting too little, asking too much, not doing enough, etc. etc at the trade deadline.

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Obsessive proponent of situational bunting and 2 strike hitting approaches, reflexively pro-catchers calling good games and tasteless proponent of the value of a RBI.


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 Post subject: Re: Humiliating!!!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 11:59 am 
No. 9 wrote:
[
Right now, trade rumors/suggestions seem to dominate the conversation here. I admittedly don't follow the minor leagues and have nothing of any substance to add with respect to who might be attractive targets. And, to be frank, I'm bracing myself for (what I consider to be the inevitable) the posts criticizing NH for getting too little, asking too much, not doing enough, etc. etc at the trade deadline.


Why would you be bracing yourself now? What if he does an awesome job and gets praised? Or what if he does poorly and deserves those criticisms?

Until the deadline passes, we can't really evaluate. He may deserve a ton of praise or a ton of criticism. We just don't know yet.


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 Post subject: Re: Humiliating!!!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:43 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
Why would you be bracing yourself now? What if he does an awesome job and gets praised? Or what if he does poorly and deserves those criticisms?

Until the deadline passes, we can't really evaluate. He may deserve a ton of praise or a ton of criticism. We just don't know yet.


If NH does nothing, he will be criticized because he sought too much in return for Nady, Bay, Wilson, Grabow, Marte, et al. Yet, those offering the criticism will never know what was asked for or what was offered.

If NH trades only one player, he will inevitably be criticized for not moving enough players, moving the wrong player and/or not getting enough in return. Again, those offering the criticism will never know what was asked for or what was offered.

If NH trades all of the players generally discussed, he will be criticized for trading too many players, not getting enough in return, not getting enough hitting, not getting enough pitching, selling low when he could have sold high weeks ago, etc., etc. Again, those criticizing have no idea what is being discussed between GMs and the dynamics of trading professional ballplayers.

Even if NH receives some "prospects" in return for current Buc players and the moves are praised by some . . . there is still a great deal of speculation with respect to whether that "prospect" will amount to anything at all. Whether it turns out to be a good trade for the Bucs will only be proven in '09, '10, or '11.

If I remember correctly (and I readily admit that my memory is very fuzzy as to the details . . .), there were a number of people ready to leap off tall buildings when DL couldn't work out a trade with the Royals for Brad Hawpe. If I remember right, speculation was that DL would not part with Maholm and another lefty (Grabow?) for Hawpe. He was ridiculed for asking for too much. People were saying that the Bucs had plenty of pitching and needed Hawpe's offense. Well . . . fast forward . . .

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Reflexively, obsessively and tastelessly submitted,
No. 9
Obsessive proponent of situational bunting and 2 strike hitting approaches, reflexively pro-catchers calling good games and tasteless proponent of the value of a RBI.


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 Post subject: Re: Humiliating!!!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 2:03 pm 
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I dont recall the Hawpe discussions...but I do remember the uproar over Ryan Shealy/Rockies in 2006...move ahead to this season and this guy couldnt crack the KC lineup out of spring training and is hacking away in Omaha...The rumor then was Grabow for Shealy http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06211/709797-63.stm

Frankly NH is in a no win situation...no matter what he does it will be highly scrutinized and criticized. Too much given too little return etc...Could have gotten X and Y from team Z if he had held out/moved quicker...

No. 9 is correct, the true evaluation of any move made or not made will take years to properly determine...

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 Post subject: Re: Humiliating!!!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 2:07 pm 
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Mick Kraut wrote:
I dont recall the Hawpe discussions...but I do remember the uproar over Ryan Shealy/Rockies in 2006...move ahead to this season and this guy couldnt crack the KC lineup out of spring training and is hacking away in Omaha...The rumor then was Grabow for Shealy http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06211/709797-63.stm


See, I told you my memory was squat!!!! That is exactly what I was thinking about.

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Reflexively, obsessively and tastelessly submitted,
No. 9
Obsessive proponent of situational bunting and 2 strike hitting approaches, reflexively pro-catchers calling good games and tasteless proponent of the value of a RBI.


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 Post subject: Re: Humiliating!!!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 2:23 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
Mick Kraut wrote:
I dont recall the Hawpe discussions...but I do remember the uproar over Ryan Shealy/Rockies in 2006...move ahead to this season and this guy couldnt crack the KC lineup out of spring training and is hacking away in Omaha...The rumor then was Grabow for Shealy http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06211/709797-63.stm


See, I told you my memory was squat!!!! That is exactly what I was thinking about.


Well there we go...I thought that perhaps there was one I missed!

I am very curious about what will happen in the coming days...

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 Post subject: Re: Humiliating!!!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 3:34 pm 
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Mick Kraut wrote:
Well there we go...I thought that perhaps there was one I missed!


Just read Shealy's bio at MLB.com to refresh my waning memory.
Rockies traded Shealy at the 2006 trade deadline to the Royals for LHP Jeremy Affeldt and RHP Denny Bautista.

My memory of this is that DL was roundly criticized for not pulling the trigger for the "can't miss" Shealy in exchange for Grabow and Maholm. Reports were that DL was offering Grabow straight up for Shealy. Same reports indicated that Royals wanted Maholm as well and DL balked at the suggestion.

I also seem to recall that IA Pirate was ready to get in his car and drive to Pittsburgh to personally kill DL at the time. Am I wrong IA?

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Reflexively, obsessively and tastelessly submitted,
No. 9
Obsessive proponent of situational bunting and 2 strike hitting approaches, reflexively pro-catchers calling good games and tasteless proponent of the value of a RBI.


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 Post subject: Re: Humiliating!!!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 3:45 pm 
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I was so completely sold on Shealy and was furious when we didn't get the deal done. The Pirates couldn't get Shealy and all the Royals had to give up was Jeremy freaking Affeldt and Denny freaking Bautista?!?! What a steal!! The Royals are set for years to come on this can't miss superstar!

By the way, I just saw Shealy here in Omaha strike out 3 times last week against a AAA starter for Oklahoma that had an ERA over 5.00. Hey, we are all wrong every once in a while, right?!

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