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 Post subject: Re: Why is Laroche hitting as high as 6th?
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 10:36 am 
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Willton wrote:
Fine, you want to give two players who have are having similarly poor performances in April disparate treatment based solely on the fact that one has a batting title and one does not, go ahead. I'm just saying how fucking stupid that is.


There's only one fundamental flaw in your statement Mr. Prosecutor..........it's wrong. They are not "similar" by any stretch of your imagination.

Code:
OPS             April 15th     May 1st
Mclouth            1099         1047
Nady               1021         901
Bay                875          806
Doumit             861          996 
Sanchez            585          565
Bautista           526          563
Rivas/Bixler       485          475
LaRoche            440          489


Now I believe that the initial question was, "Why is Laroche hitting as high as 6th?". Based on the information just given, using OPS, which is the barometer established by you, not me, please instruct me as to why it's innapropriate to question batting Laroche sixth? For the entire month of April, he was appreciably worse than anyone else. I'll even go one step further and state that on the day this thread was started, May 3rd, Laroche had an OPS of 483 while Sanchez had as OPS of 539. That's a difference of 56 points. Keeping in mind that Sanchez plays 2B and Laroche plays 1B, in your expert opinion, is a 56 point differential in OPS significant?


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 Post subject: Re: Why is Laroche hitting as high as 6th?
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 10:36 am 
PirateParrot wrote:
If both players comeback and have typical season's for themselves and you could only keep one of them which would you want?

A. Sanchez- plays second base and hits second in the order.

B. LaRoche- plays first base and hits cleanup.

I'm not saying Sanchez shouldn't be criticized for his slow start. However, fair or not, his numbers at the end of the year are closer to being acceptable for his position and spot in the order than LaRoche. LaRoche was brought in to hit cleanup and play first base. All seem to agree that his numbers are inferior to other first basemen in the league. And certainly his numbers are inferior for a cleanup hitter.

And my bone of contention(as well as others it seems) is that the Pirates can't afford their cleanup hitter to take the first month to month and a half off. No team wants that, but the Pirates CAN'T have it happen. So fair or not to LaRoche, that to me is why he receives/deserves more criticism.


Exactly PirateParrot. Neither is playing well at all but Sanchez is closer to acceptable for his position than our "slugger" LaRoche.

Where I get confused with this post is why, according to Sisy, someone isn't allowed to criticize LaRoche without criticizing Sanchez. Yes, Freddy sucks right now but that wasn't the topic of this post. Go start a "Freddy sucks" post.


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 Post subject: Re: Why is Laroche hitting as high as 6th?
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 10:45 am 
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Elmer wrote:
Where I get confused with this post is why, according to Sisy, someone isn't allowed to criticize LaRoche without criticizing Sanchez. Yes, Freddy sucks right now but that wasn't the topic of this post. Go start a "Freddy sucks" post.


Well Elmer, unfortunately for you, it appears that your commonsensical discovery will put you in the same boat as I, possession of a sub 4th grade reading comprehension level. Welcome aboard! I hope you brought another oar though, I've only got one and have been paddling around in circles for days!


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 Post subject: Re: Why is Laroche hitting as high as 6th?
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 10:56 am 
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Elmer wrote:

Exactly PirateParrot. Neither is playing well at all but Sanchez is closer to acceptable for his position than our "slugger" LaRoche.



Then perhaps the problem is that Laroche is miscast as a "slugger" who should be hitting in the middle of the lineup. Perhaps, just maybe, he is a #6 or #7 hitter who can get hot and rack up some RBI's for your team.

So should we blame Laroche for miscasting himself into that role? Should we blame him for not acquiring another bat that could hit cleanup and thereby allow him to bat in a position more fitting to his skills? It seems that Littlefield acquired him thinking that he was something that he is not, leading to the fans raising expectations. No one, Sisy or Econowilltonlodge, has said Laroche is an all star 1st baseman and certified slugger. Perhaps it is time we recognize what talents he has and fault those who failed to ever acquire or develop a suitable slugger.

Laroche is the square peg shoved into a round hole (oh the puns I could write...). Unfortunately, Dave Littlefield didn't ever find us any round pegs, so until we are able to develop one, we are stuck.


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 Post subject: Re: Why is Laroche hitting as high as 6th?
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 11:16 am 
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sisyphus wrote:
So you must think that LaRoche should be cut some slack, as he has out-hit Sanchez every single season that they've both been in baseball.


Nope. We're talking about April/May here. Not all year. Come July, I'll certainly give more slack to LaRoche based on his history. Outside the fact that I don't define hitting the way you do, (I actually consider hitting to be hitting the ball, not overall run production), LaRoche has no batting titles to his name, and he is not recovering from anything.

Quote:
Even assuming that Sanchez's sore shoulder is effecting his hitting, which both he and the Pirates have denied since Spring Training (and these denials are supported by the fact that he DH'd all spring), what does that have to do with anything? He isn't hitting NOW. Batting Sanchez first or second is hurting the team a lot more than batting LaRoche sixth is.


DH'ing could protect the shoulder that is being irrated by everyday fielding and throwing. You and I have no way of knowing this other than their denials. Given Freddie's consistant history of contact at every level of play and history of hitting .300 or so, yeah, I'll give him more slack. He has a much quicker chance of making contact, getting on base by contact and in short, coming out of this sooner than LaRoche.

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But, as I said before, I don't mind having Sanchez in the number three spot, just as I don't mind LaRoche hitting sixth. Both are likely come out of their slumps soon.


Agreed.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Why is Laroche hitting as high as 6th?
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 1:39 pm 
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Who started this?! :roll:

And who is this "Google[bot]" who is always browsing the forum? Where does he stand on this issue?

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Conversation should be pleasant without scurrility, witty without affectation, free without indecency, learned without conceitedness, novel without falsehood. - William Shakespeare


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 Post subject: Re: Why is Laroche hitting as high as 6th?
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 2:20 pm 
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Bertie wrote:
Who started this?! :roll:


Not me. But in the interest of forum unity, I formally submit that everything I've said in this thread was wrong. I'm going back to what I do best, posting stupid pictures.

Image

Bertie wrote:
And who is this "Google[bot]" who is always browsing the forum? Where does he stand on this issue?

He teaches me neat tricks!

1. While sitting where you are at your desk in front of your computer, lift your right foot off the floor and make clockwise circles.

2. Now, while doing this, draw the number "6" in the air with your right hand. Your foot will change direction.


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 Post subject: Re: Why is Laroche hitting as high as 6th?
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 2:30 pm 
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PirateParrot wrote:
If both players comeback and have typical season's for themselves and you could only keep one of them which would you want?

A. Sanchez- plays second base and hits second in the order.

B. LaRoche- plays first base and hits cleanup.

I'm not saying Sanchez shouldn't be criticized for his slow start. However, fair or not, his numbers at the end of the year are closer to being acceptable for his position and spot in the order than LaRoche. LaRoche was brought in to hit cleanup and play first base. All seem to agree that his numbers are inferior to other first basemen in the league. And certainly his numbers are inferior for a cleanup hitter.

And my bone of contention(as well as others it seems) is that the Pirates can't afford their cleanup hitter to take the first month to month and a half off. No team wants that, but the Pirates CAN'T have it happen. So fair or not to LaRoche, that to me is why he receives/deserves more criticism.

Can the Pirates afford to have their number 2 or 3 hitter take the first month to month and a half off? No more than they can afford to have their number 4 hitter. The difference is that one of the two has been dropped in the order already. I don't mind that. I do mind this apparent double standard over these two, though.

Which of the two would I trade? Whichever one brought more in return. They're both below average hitters for their positions, and neither is a Gold Glover.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is Laroche hitting as high as 6th?
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 2:38 pm 
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Argentum wrote:
Willton wrote:
Fine, you want to give two players who have are having similarly poor performances in April disparate treatment based solely on the fact that one has a batting title and one does not, go ahead. I'm just saying how fucking stupid that is.


There's only one fundamental flaw in your statement Mr. Prosecutor..........it's wrong. They are not "similar" by any stretch of your imagination.

Code:
OPS             April 15th     May 1st
Mclouth            1099         1047
Nady               1021         901
Bay                875          806
Doumit             861          996 
Sanchez            585          565
Bautista           526          563
Rivas/Bixler       485          475
LaRoche            440          489


Now I believe that the initial question was, "Why is Laroche hitting as high as 6th?". Based on the information just given, using OPS, which is the barometer established by you, not me, please instruct me as to why it's innapropriate to question batting Laroche sixth? For the entire month of April, he was appreciably worse than anyone else. I'll even go one step further and state that on the day this thread was started, May 3rd, Laroche had an OPS of 483 while Sanchez had as OPS of 539. That's a difference of 56 points. Keeping in mind that Sanchez plays 2B and Laroche plays 1B, in your expert opinion, is a 56 point differential in OPS significant?

Silver, while the position that these guys play is relevant when you are comparing their overall value to the team, it is totally IRRELEVANT when you're talking about where they should be hitting in the batting order.I haven't seen anyone arguing that LaRoche should be batting ahead of Sanchez. I have argued that what's good for the goose is good for the gander. If you're going to base your batting order solely on how the players are hitting right now, neither belongs anywhere near the top of the order.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is Laroche hitting as high as 6th?
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 2:41 pm 
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Quote:
Now, while doing this, draw the number "6" in the air with your right hand. Your foot will change direction.


You're right - absolutely right. :P

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Conversation should be pleasant without scurrility, witty without affectation, free without indecency, learned without conceitedness, novel without falsehood. - William Shakespeare


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 Post subject: Re: Why is Laroche hitting as high as 6th?
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 2:55 pm 
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Bertie wrote:
Quote:
Now, while doing this, draw the number "6" in the air with your right hand. Your foot will change direction.


You're right - absolutely right. :P


"Google[bot]" has asked me to tell you that you must NEVER inquire about him again. Consider this trick a one time gift from "Google[bot]". "Google[bot]" has a list, you're this close >< to being on it. It's a bad list to be on, trust me.

Oh no!!!, I've got to go.......nobody......but....he's my friend........{Fade}

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 Post subject: Re: Why is Laroche hitting as high as 6th?
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 3:10 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
So you must think that LaRoche should be cut some slack, as he has out-hit Sanchez every single season that they've both been in baseball.


Nope. We're talking about April/May here. Not all year.

Really? Then why do folks keep bringing up two year old batting titles?

Quote:
Come July, I'll certainly give more slack to LaRoche based on his history. Outside the fact that I don't define hitting the way you do, (I actually consider hitting to be hitting the ball, not overall run production), LaRoche has no batting titles to his name, and he is not recovering from anything.

So if the Pirates out-hit the Giants 12-9 tonight, do they win the game? No. Baseball is not about getting a high batting average. Baseball is about scoring more runs than you allow. OPS correlates well with run production. Batting average does not. LaRoche has had a higher OPS than Sanchez every year. LaRoche is the better hitter.

Quote:
DH'ing could protect the shoulder that is being irrated by everyday fielding and throwing.

Not if swinging a bat causes him shoulder pain it can't. LaRoche and the Pirates say it doesn't, and they are backed up by one of the most respected orthopedic surgeons in the world, so I tend to believe them.

Quote:
You and I have no way of knowing this other than their denials. Given Freddie's consistant history of contact at every level of play and history of hitting .300 or so, yeah, I'll give him more slack. He has a much quicker chance of making contact, getting on base by contact and in short, coming out of this sooner than LaRoche.

I don't care about contact. I care about scoring runs, and LaRoche has a better history of doing the things it takes to score runs, and also of avoiding outs.

_________________
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 Post subject: Re: Why is Laroche hitting as high as 6th?
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 3:18 pm 
I agree with some of what you say, but I still don't see why a discussion about LaRoche has to turn into a discussion about Freddy. TWO DIFFERENT TOPICS.

And to your point about producing runs, I agree. LaRoche has a better history of doing that ... but not in April. Why put him out there in April if he's shown he can't do it.

I will not believe for a second that he "has to find his stroke." They guy hit in spring training, so it's not physical. It's a mental thing. Play him sparingly until May.


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 Post subject: Re: Why is Laroche hitting as high as 6th?
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 4:58 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
Argentum:

You made me bust up three different times in this thread.

Wow, you do not get the argentum medal - you get the aurum medal!!

Image

Argentum's Medal - Funniest Series of Posts, 2008


Now that I've renounced all of the claims that I've made in this thread, do I have to return the medal? :(


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 Post subject: Re: Why is Laroche hitting as high as 6th?
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 11:21 pm 
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Argentum wrote:
Elmer wrote:
Where I get confused with this post is why, according to Sisy, someone isn't allowed to criticize LaRoche without criticizing Sanchez. Yes, Freddy sucks right now but that wasn't the topic of this post. Go start a "Freddy sucks" post.


Well Elmer, unfortunately for you, it appears that your commonsensical discovery will put you in the same boat as I, possession of a sub 4th grade reading comprehension level. Welcome aboard! I hope you brought another oar though, I've only got one and have been paddling around in circles for days!


Argentum - you are killing me in this thread.

Welcome to the crowded ship, Elmer. I may be demoted to first mate and Argentum to captain based on his insightful points and well-stated arguments. Along with some pretty funny stuff.

Image

Welcome aboard!


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 Post subject: Re: Why is Laroche hitting as high as 6th?
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 9:40 am 
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Bucfan wrote:
Welcome to the crowded ship, Elmer. I may be demoted to first mate and Argentum to captain based on his insightful points and well-stated arguments. Along with some pretty funny stuff.


We need a name. I'm thinking something along the lines of the "SS Frustration". Or maybe we appoint Bertie to Captain and call it the "HMS Piranic". We'll be a ship of lovable losers. Maybe spin it off into a tv show, every week we engage into battle against those who refuse to answer direct questions while answering only those asked by themselves. We get frustrated, and sail off into the sunset poised to do battle "next time". To bad Don Knotts passed, he would have been my first choice to play me!


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 Post subject: Re: Why is Laroche hitting as high as 6th?
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 11:45 am 
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Argentum wrote:
To bad Don Knotts passed, he would have been my first choice to play me!


Here was the celebrity most likely to play me in this series:

Image

Alas, he too is gone. :(


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 Post subject: Re: Why is Laroche hitting as high as 6th?
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 7:41 pm 
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Argentum wrote:
Bucfan wrote:
We need a name. I'm thinking something along the lines of the "SS Frustration". Or maybe we appoint Bertie to Captain and call it the "HMS Piranic". We'll be a ship of lovable losers. Maybe spin it off into a tv show, every week we engage into battle against those who refuse to answer direct questions while answering only those asked by themselves. We get frustrated, and sail off into the sunset poised to do battle "next time". To bad Don Knotts passed, he would have been my first choice to play me!


Calling it HMS Pinafore would not only be more apposite but also enable PirateKing (whose alternate handle escapes me) to reel off the entire lyrics of "So give three cheers and one cheer more for the gallant/hearty/well-bred etc. Captain of the Pinafore". (Apologies to G&S).

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Conversation should be pleasant without scurrility, witty without affectation, free without indecency, learned without conceitedness, novel without falsehood. - William Shakespeare


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