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 Post subject: Re: Why is Laroche hitting as high as 6th?
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 7:17 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
I agree. Both have been bad, LaRoche has been worse. Also, this is the second April in a row he's been a turd so he gets to free pass in my book.

Wait a minute, let me get this straight: LaRoche has two bad Aprils in a row and he gets berated by the masses. Sanchez has two bad Aprils in a row and he ... gets a pass? What?!?

How does that make sense?

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 Post subject: Re: Why is Laroche hitting as high as 6th?
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 7:32 pm 
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sisyphus wrote:
That zipping sound is the entire point flying over your head.


Again with the zipping. Hey, sisy, maybe the fact that other posters do not accept your views has nothing to do with them missing a point - maybe you are just wrong.

Sisy, you remind me of the mother who is watching a battallion of troops marching and says, "Everybody is marching out of step but my Johnny."

sisyphus wrote:
I'm not arguing the merits of LaRoche batting 6th using Sanchez as evidence. I'm pointing out how ridiculous it is to scream that one player who is off to a bad start should be moved down in the order while saying that another player who is off to a bad start should bat at the top of the order.


(1) I have not brought Sanchez into this discussion, you have - repeatedly. You accuse me of misstating your point, but you are just making this up. It is absolutely untrue. Then again, with respect to your insistence that I have to critique everything Sanchez if I criticize Laroche . . .

(2) Why? Why, exactly do I need to criticize Sanchez when discussing how bad Laroche has been for the first 25 games (yet again)???

I did not like the movie "Ishtar." Do I have to criticize "Battlefield Earth" every time I criticize "Ishtar"??? Freaking crying out loud, "Battlefield Earth" was a horrid movie, even worse than a decidely bad "Ishtar."

So, am I obligated to pan "BE" every time I lampoon "Ishtar"??

If so, why? The two have nothing to do with each other. I am free to criticize "Ishtar" all I want without bringing up "BE."

That is why I have asked you about Laroche. You agree that he was horrid the first 25 games. See, my question had some bearing on the discussion ("Has Laroche been awful?"), while yours ("But what about Sanchez?") did not.


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 Post subject: Re: Why is Laroche hitting as high as 6th?
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 7:47 pm 
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Willton wrote:
Wait a minute, let me get this straight: LaRoche has two bad Aprils in a row and he gets berated by the masses. Sanchez has two bad Aprils in a row and he ... gets a pass? What?!?

How does that make sense?


Two points:

(1) What does Sanchez have to do with Laroche?? Please explain how anybody is obligated to criticize everybody when pointing out the problems with Laroche.

These two players really have nothing to do with each other. You style yourself as knowledgeable in logic, but your argument is demonstrably false.

(2) Factually, you are wrong. A comparison:

Sanchez

Combined numbers 2007-2008: 35-162, 0 HR's, 14 RBI's, .216/.253/.259 .512 OPS

Laroche

Combined numbers 2007-2008: 24-163, 4 HR's, 16 RBI's, .147/.250/.245 .495 OPS

So, in fact, both have been pretty darn bad. But Laroche has been worse ... and I state this without pointing out that, oh, say, SANCHEZ PLAYS SECOND AND LAROCHE PLAYS FIRST AND HITS CLEANUP EVERY APRIL.


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 Post subject: Re: Why is Laroche hitting as high as 6th?
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 9:39 pm 
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Wait a minute, let me get this straight: LaRoche has two bad Aprils in a row and he gets berated by the masses. Sanchez has two bad Aprils in a row and he ... gets a pass? What?!?

How does that make sense?


How many batting titles and All Star games does LaRoche have? How many bad April's of LaRoche have been because he was playing back on a torn knee, or coming off shoulder surgery?

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Why is Laroche hitting as high as 6th?
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 11:54 pm 
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Fine, you want to give two players who have are having similarly poor performances in April disparate treatment based solely on the fact that one has a batting title and one does not, go ahead. I'm just saying how fucking stupid that is.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is Laroche hitting as high as 6th?
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 12:40 am 
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I think a lot of it is Sanchez shows hustle and passion on the field. LaRoche is sort of a dope out there. He looks as if he doesn't care. Sanchez is out there busting ass play after play. His uniform is rarely white after games (especially road games... ;) ) I'm not saying LaRoche doesn't hustle but he is a statue out there. Perception means a ton in the fans eyes, including myself.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is Laroche hitting as high as 6th?
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 6:34 am 
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Bucfan wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
That zipping sound is the entire point flying over your head.


Again with the zipping. Hey, sisy, maybe the fact that other posters do not accept your views has nothing to do with them missing a point - maybe you are just wrong.

Maybe. And maybe you really do understand what I'm writing, but are choosing to misunderstand it for some reason.

Bucfan wrote:
Sisy, you remind me of the mother who is watching a battallion of troops marching and says, "Everybody is marching out of step but my Johnny."

LOL. Being in the majority has nothing to do with being right.

sisyphus wrote:
I'm not arguing the merits of LaRoche batting 6th using Sanchez as evidence. I'm pointing out how ridiculous it is to scream that one player who is off to a bad start should be moved down in the order while saying that another player who is off to a bad start should bat at the top of the order.


Bucfan wrote:
(1) I have not brought Sanchez into this discussion, you have - repeatedly. You accuse me of misstating your point, but you are just making this up. It is absolutely untrue. Then again, with respect to your insistence that I have to critique everything Sanchez if I criticize Laroche

Yes, I have brought Sanchez into the discussion, and yes, you have repeatedly misstated my point. And you're doing it again right there.

Bucfan wrote:
(2) Why? Why, exactly do I need to criticize Sanchez when discussing how bad Laroche has been for the first 25 games (yet again)???

You don't. Feel free to criticize or ignore sorry performances as you please.

Bucfan wrote:
I did not like the movie "Ishtar." Do I have to criticize "Battlefield Earth" every time I criticize "Ishtar"??? Freaking crying out loud, "Battlefield Earth" was a horrid movie, even worse than a decidely bad "Ishtar."

So, am I obligated to pan "BE" every time I lampoon "Ishtar"??

If so, why? The two have nothing to do with each other. I am free to criticize "Ishtar" all I want without bringing up "BE."

That is why I have asked you about Laroche. You agree that he was horrid the first 25 games. See, my question had some bearing on the discussion ("Has Laroche been awful?"), while yours ("But what about Sanchez?") did not.

You are not insisting that Ishtar be moved down in the batting order while claiming that Battlefield Earth deserves to bat third because it had a good season two years ago.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is Laroche hitting as high as 6th?
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 9:43 am 
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Willton wrote:
Fine, you want to give two players who have are having similarly poor performances in April disparate treatment based solely on the fact that one has a batting title and one does not, go ahead.


Oooh, talk about misrepresentation. I did NOT base it SOLEY on the fact one has a batting title. I pointed out that in two of his last three April's, Sanchez has played HURT while recovering from injury/surgery.

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I'm just saying how fucking stupid that is.


If you think that cutting slack to a PROVEN hitter who is playing hurt in the month is stupid, that says more about you than anyone else.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Why is Laroche hitting as high as 6th?
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 10:15 am 
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ZelieMike wrote:
If you think that cutting slack to a PROVEN hitter who is playing hurt in the month is stupid, that says more about you than anyone else.

ZM

So you must think that LaRoche should be cut some slack, as he has out-hit Sanchez every single season that they've both been in baseball.

Even assuming that Sanchez's sore shoulder is effecting his hitting, which both he and the Pirates have denied since Spring Training (and these denials are supported by the fact that he DH'd all spring), what does that have to do with anything? He isn't hitting NOW. Batting Sanchez first or second is hurting the team a lot more than batting LaRoche sixth is.

But, as I said before, I don't mind having Sanchez in the number three spot, just as I don't mind LaRoche hitting sixth. Both are likely come out of their slumps soon.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is Laroche hitting as high as 6th?
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 10:25 am 
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If both players comeback and have typical season's for themselves and you could only keep one of them which would you want?

A. Sanchez- plays second base and hits second in the order.

B. LaRoche- plays first base and hits cleanup.

I'm not saying Sanchez shouldn't be criticized for his slow start. However, fair or not, his numbers at the end of the year are closer to being acceptable for his position and spot in the order than LaRoche. LaRoche was brought in to hit cleanup and play first base. All seem to agree that his numbers are inferior to other first basemen in the league. And certainly his numbers are inferior for a cleanup hitter.

And my bone of contention(as well as others it seems) is that the Pirates can't afford their cleanup hitter to take the first month to month and a half off. No team wants that, but the Pirates CAN'T have it happen. So fair or not to LaRoche, that to me is why he receives/deserves more criticism.


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 Post subject: Re: Why is Laroche hitting as high as 6th?
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 10:36 am 
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Willton wrote:
Fine, you want to give two players who have are having similarly poor performances in April disparate treatment based solely on the fact that one has a batting title and one does not, go ahead. I'm just saying how fucking stupid that is.


There's only one fundamental flaw in your statement Mr. Prosecutor..........it's wrong. They are not "similar" by any stretch of your imagination.

Code:
OPS             April 15th     May 1st
Mclouth            1099         1047
Nady               1021         901
Bay                875          806
Doumit             861          996 
Sanchez            585          565
Bautista           526          563
Rivas/Bixler       485          475
LaRoche            440          489


Now I believe that the initial question was, "Why is Laroche hitting as high as 6th?". Based on the information just given, using OPS, which is the barometer established by you, not me, please instruct me as to why it's innapropriate to question batting Laroche sixth? For the entire month of April, he was appreciably worse than anyone else. I'll even go one step further and state that on the day this thread was started, May 3rd, Laroche had an OPS of 483 while Sanchez had as OPS of 539. That's a difference of 56 points. Keeping in mind that Sanchez plays 2B and Laroche plays 1B, in your expert opinion, is a 56 point differential in OPS significant?


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 Post subject: Re: Why is Laroche hitting as high as 6th?
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 10:36 am 
PirateParrot wrote:
If both players comeback and have typical season's for themselves and you could only keep one of them which would you want?

A. Sanchez- plays second base and hits second in the order.

B. LaRoche- plays first base and hits cleanup.

I'm not saying Sanchez shouldn't be criticized for his slow start. However, fair or not, his numbers at the end of the year are closer to being acceptable for his position and spot in the order than LaRoche. LaRoche was brought in to hit cleanup and play first base. All seem to agree that his numbers are inferior to other first basemen in the league. And certainly his numbers are inferior for a cleanup hitter.

And my bone of contention(as well as others it seems) is that the Pirates can't afford their cleanup hitter to take the first month to month and a half off. No team wants that, but the Pirates CAN'T have it happen. So fair or not to LaRoche, that to me is why he receives/deserves more criticism.


Exactly PirateParrot. Neither is playing well at all but Sanchez is closer to acceptable for his position than our "slugger" LaRoche.

Where I get confused with this post is why, according to Sisy, someone isn't allowed to criticize LaRoche without criticizing Sanchez. Yes, Freddy sucks right now but that wasn't the topic of this post. Go start a "Freddy sucks" post.


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 Post subject: Re: Why is Laroche hitting as high as 6th?
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 10:45 am 
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Elmer wrote:
Where I get confused with this post is why, according to Sisy, someone isn't allowed to criticize LaRoche without criticizing Sanchez. Yes, Freddy sucks right now but that wasn't the topic of this post. Go start a "Freddy sucks" post.


Well Elmer, unfortunately for you, it appears that your commonsensical discovery will put you in the same boat as I, possession of a sub 4th grade reading comprehension level. Welcome aboard! I hope you brought another oar though, I've only got one and have been paddling around in circles for days!


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 Post subject: Re: Why is Laroche hitting as high as 6th?
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 10:56 am 
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Elmer wrote:

Exactly PirateParrot. Neither is playing well at all but Sanchez is closer to acceptable for his position than our "slugger" LaRoche.



Then perhaps the problem is that Laroche is miscast as a "slugger" who should be hitting in the middle of the lineup. Perhaps, just maybe, he is a #6 or #7 hitter who can get hot and rack up some RBI's for your team.

So should we blame Laroche for miscasting himself into that role? Should we blame him for not acquiring another bat that could hit cleanup and thereby allow him to bat in a position more fitting to his skills? It seems that Littlefield acquired him thinking that he was something that he is not, leading to the fans raising expectations. No one, Sisy or Econowilltonlodge, has said Laroche is an all star 1st baseman and certified slugger. Perhaps it is time we recognize what talents he has and fault those who failed to ever acquire or develop a suitable slugger.

Laroche is the square peg shoved into a round hole (oh the puns I could write...). Unfortunately, Dave Littlefield didn't ever find us any round pegs, so until we are able to develop one, we are stuck.


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 Post subject: Re: Why is Laroche hitting as high as 6th?
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 11:16 am 
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sisyphus wrote:
So you must think that LaRoche should be cut some slack, as he has out-hit Sanchez every single season that they've both been in baseball.


Nope. We're talking about April/May here. Not all year. Come July, I'll certainly give more slack to LaRoche based on his history. Outside the fact that I don't define hitting the way you do, (I actually consider hitting to be hitting the ball, not overall run production), LaRoche has no batting titles to his name, and he is not recovering from anything.

Quote:
Even assuming that Sanchez's sore shoulder is effecting his hitting, which both he and the Pirates have denied since Spring Training (and these denials are supported by the fact that he DH'd all spring), what does that have to do with anything? He isn't hitting NOW. Batting Sanchez first or second is hurting the team a lot more than batting LaRoche sixth is.


DH'ing could protect the shoulder that is being irrated by everyday fielding and throwing. You and I have no way of knowing this other than their denials. Given Freddie's consistant history of contact at every level of play and history of hitting .300 or so, yeah, I'll give him more slack. He has a much quicker chance of making contact, getting on base by contact and in short, coming out of this sooner than LaRoche.

Quote:
But, as I said before, I don't mind having Sanchez in the number three spot, just as I don't mind LaRoche hitting sixth. Both are likely come out of their slumps soon.


Agreed.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Why is Laroche hitting as high as 6th?
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 1:39 pm 
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Who started this?! :roll:

And who is this "Google[bot]" who is always browsing the forum? Where does he stand on this issue?

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 Post subject: Re: Why is Laroche hitting as high as 6th?
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 2:20 pm 
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Bertie wrote:
Who started this?! :roll:


Not me. But in the interest of forum unity, I formally submit that everything I've said in this thread was wrong. I'm going back to what I do best, posting stupid pictures.

Image

Bertie wrote:
And who is this "Google[bot]" who is always browsing the forum? Where does he stand on this issue?

He teaches me neat tricks!

1. While sitting where you are at your desk in front of your computer, lift your right foot off the floor and make clockwise circles.

2. Now, while doing this, draw the number "6" in the air with your right hand. Your foot will change direction.


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 Post subject: Re: Why is Laroche hitting as high as 6th?
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 2:30 pm 
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PirateParrot wrote:
If both players comeback and have typical season's for themselves and you could only keep one of them which would you want?

A. Sanchez- plays second base and hits second in the order.

B. LaRoche- plays first base and hits cleanup.

I'm not saying Sanchez shouldn't be criticized for his slow start. However, fair or not, his numbers at the end of the year are closer to being acceptable for his position and spot in the order than LaRoche. LaRoche was brought in to hit cleanup and play first base. All seem to agree that his numbers are inferior to other first basemen in the league. And certainly his numbers are inferior for a cleanup hitter.

And my bone of contention(as well as others it seems) is that the Pirates can't afford their cleanup hitter to take the first month to month and a half off. No team wants that, but the Pirates CAN'T have it happen. So fair or not to LaRoche, that to me is why he receives/deserves more criticism.

Can the Pirates afford to have their number 2 or 3 hitter take the first month to month and a half off? No more than they can afford to have their number 4 hitter. The difference is that one of the two has been dropped in the order already. I don't mind that. I do mind this apparent double standard over these two, though.

Which of the two would I trade? Whichever one brought more in return. They're both below average hitters for their positions, and neither is a Gold Glover.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is Laroche hitting as high as 6th?
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 2:38 pm 
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Argentum wrote:
Willton wrote:
Fine, you want to give two players who have are having similarly poor performances in April disparate treatment based solely on the fact that one has a batting title and one does not, go ahead. I'm just saying how fucking stupid that is.


There's only one fundamental flaw in your statement Mr. Prosecutor..........it's wrong. They are not "similar" by any stretch of your imagination.

Code:
OPS             April 15th     May 1st
Mclouth            1099         1047
Nady               1021         901
Bay                875          806
Doumit             861          996 
Sanchez            585          565
Bautista           526          563
Rivas/Bixler       485          475
LaRoche            440          489


Now I believe that the initial question was, "Why is Laroche hitting as high as 6th?". Based on the information just given, using OPS, which is the barometer established by you, not me, please instruct me as to why it's innapropriate to question batting Laroche sixth? For the entire month of April, he was appreciably worse than anyone else. I'll even go one step further and state that on the day this thread was started, May 3rd, Laroche had an OPS of 483 while Sanchez had as OPS of 539. That's a difference of 56 points. Keeping in mind that Sanchez plays 2B and Laroche plays 1B, in your expert opinion, is a 56 point differential in OPS significant?

Silver, while the position that these guys play is relevant when you are comparing their overall value to the team, it is totally IRRELEVANT when you're talking about where they should be hitting in the batting order.I haven't seen anyone arguing that LaRoche should be batting ahead of Sanchez. I have argued that what's good for the goose is good for the gander. If you're going to base your batting order solely on how the players are hitting right now, neither belongs anywhere near the top of the order.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is Laroche hitting as high as 6th?
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 2:41 pm 
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Quote:
Now, while doing this, draw the number "6" in the air with your right hand. Your foot will change direction.


You're right - absolutely right. :P

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Conversation should be pleasant without scurrility, witty without affectation, free without indecency, learned without conceitedness, novel without falsehood. - William Shakespeare


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