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 Post subject: Re: Taillon Deal is Completed
PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:13 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
Seattle got Lee in an attempt to be good this year. They failed, traded Lee and got prospects.


Burgh got Church, Crosby, Dotel and Lopez in an attempt to use them as stop gaps this year. They succeeded at doing as such and then traded said players for prospects.

Ryann wrote:
Astros were not far off from being the World Series team of the past when they got Tejada. That instance failed.


:lol:

'Stros made the WS in 05 (largely due to Pettite and Clemens), Tejada signed in 2008 (Pettite and Clemens left after 06 and went 73-89 in 07).

Ryann wrote:
Brett Myers has been pretty damn good what a stupid move :roll:


8-7 w/a 3.13 ERA is good, but 'pretty damned good'? What is your definition of 'pretty damned good'?

Ryann wrote:
It is Kevin Millwood instead of throwing 5 shit pitchers they tried to get a veteran to be more competitive.


That doesn't change the fact that Millwood is horrendous.

Ryann wrote:
My point is the Pirates do not spend money to try to be competitive. Other teams do. It never hurts to sign a guy, but when your the Pirates profit is everything.


The Pirates do not spend $$$ to try and be competitive because that would be counter productive.

Throwing $$$ at a problem is not any more likely to solve a problem than rebuilding from the ground up.

I would rather have Pedro, Tabata, Sanchez, Taillon and the countless others drafted/traded for since NH took over for the next 3-5 years than any FA who would sign in Burgh (who are small in number and would have cost a boat load of Barry Zito esque money).

If you could provide an example of a baseball team who endured long-time losing and then signed a slew of FA's and immediately started winning (which doesn't work, except for in video games), please say so.

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 Post subject: Re: Taillon Deal is Completed
PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:42 pm 
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You compare Church, Crosby, Dotel, and Lopez to Cliff Lee? You lose all credibility right there.


So wait you say a team removed 3 years from a world series appearance is dumb to make a move at winning again?

Pretty Damn good as in better then anyone on the Pirates this season :lol:

Your really dumb if you think spending money is a bad thing to do. Throwing money when combined with building a foundation is the key to success. Also quit contorting what I am saying. There is nothing wrong with having that foundation of players. What is wrong is that we spend no money on putting quality veterans around those players. We have no pitching and the only short term solution would be spend money, and ultimately make the team better for 2011.

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 Post subject: Re: Taillon Deal is Completed
PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:15 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
What is wrong is that we spend no money on putting quality veterans around those players. We have no pitching and the only short term solution would be spend money, and ultimately make the team better for 2011.


1. Can you explain who you think the foundation is?
2. Do you understand that most free agents are free agents because teams didn't want to give them another contract? There are a few exception each season and they go to the Yankees or Red Sox or occasionally a St. Louis or Los Angeles.
3. Please take a look at the free agents you think the Pirates should sign to make them a contender next year. Not will sign. Should sign. Please get this on the record. You can choose any ones you want.

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 Post subject: Re: Taillon Deal is Completed
PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:37 pm 
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bucco boy wrote:
Ryann wrote:
What is wrong is that we spend no money on putting quality veterans around those players. We have no pitching and the only short term solution would be spend money, and ultimately make the team better for 2011.


1. Can you explain who you think the foundation is?
2. Do you understand that most free agents are free agents because teams didn't want to give them another contract? There are a few exception each season and they go to the Yankees or Red Sox or occasionally a St. Louis or LoAs Angeles.
3. Please take a look at the free agents you think the Pirates should sign to make them a contender next year. Not will sign. Should sign. Please get this on the record. You can choose any ones you want.


1. I think our current foundation is Alvarez, Tabata, McCutchen, and Walker. I don't like to call our minor league players part of the foundation when they are not even contributing in the majors yet. We have some ok players around that foundation in Jones, Doumit, Milledge, Cedeno, but those guys especially the later 3 are not going to be huge contributors in a winning season. I wouldn't mind a lineup with that group if we could put together a decent pitching staff.
2. Do you relize that sometimes teams CAN'T give them another contract? Why do you think Jason Bay had to leave Pittsburgh?
3. There is a lot of different potential free agents on this years market. Some are gamble type players (Justin Duchscherer and Jeremy Bonderman) who if signed cheaply would be smart decisions. Some are established big leaguers with a better chance at success and will cost more.
I personally would look at those 2 gamble players and guys like Cliff Lee, Ted Lilly, Hiroki Kuroda, Aaron Haarang, Rich Harden.
Again total speculation and I am not saying all those players are going to be very succesful next season. I am saying I would like to see our GM spend some money, and do some talent evaluation/scouting on those guys and see who is the best to sign.

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 Post subject: Re: Taillon Deal is Completed
PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:26 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
You compare Church, Crosby, Dotel, and Lopez to Cliff Lee? You lose all credibility right there.


Your failure to read between the lines is astounding.

You claimed the M's signing Lee was a good move becuase it netted them prospects. I contend then that the Bucs signing Dotel, Church, Crosby and Lopez was good move because it netted them prospects.

See the connection there?

Ryann wrote:
So wait you say a team removed 3 years from a world series appearance is dumb to make a move at winning again?


Yes.

Biggio had retired. Bagwell (retired), Kent and Beltran were long gone. Pettitte and Clemens were back in pinstripes.

The 'Stros signing Tejada was a terrible move, because he was not going to help them win or even get to a WS. The talent they had in 08 was nowhere near as good as it was from 03-05 when they were a top-3 NL team and their failure to recognize this is what led to their downfall. All Tejada did was take up a spot on a roster where a younger player could have developed instead.

There's a reason why the 'Stros have a barren farm system and few legit prospects. Thinking they could make another WS run w.o./ Clemens, Pettitte, Biggio, Bags and others] and then signing [and playing] Tejada are two of those reasons.

Ryann wrote:
Your really dumb if you think spending money is a bad thing to do.


You're (as in you are) really dumb if you think spending money is a cure all (a point you continually make like a jackass stomping a dead horse).

I'm all in favor for spending money, at the right time and when the right player is there.

Jeremy Bonderman is not the answer the Bucs need this offseason. He will not put this team 'over the top' (regardless of what you may think).

Ryann wrote:
Throwing money when combined with building a foundation is the key to success.


WITH BUILDING A FOUNDATION. The Pirates have JUST BUILT their foundation. And here you are demanding they open up the pocket books and sign any and every free agent [pitcher].

How about you have a little patience and give this foundation a chance?

And by a chance I mean another season at least.

Quit demanding instant gratification. It's beyond childish.

Ryann wrote:
Also quit contorting what I am saying. There is nothing wrong with having that foundation of players. What is wrong is that we spend no money on putting quality veterans around those players.


BECAUSE NH IS TRYING TO BUILD THE FOUNDATION!

Holy hell, you can't be so dense that you can't see this.

Cedeno, LaRoche, Moss, Clement, Milledge, Ohllie, Karstens, D-Cutch, Morton... not great players as of late, but the Bucs had to see if they would pan out or not. It was well worth any risk (and/or players given up who had failed to produce as Perates, players like Jack, Freddy, X-Man, Bay, Snell, etc.)

You can't add veterans to a foundation until you have a foundation to begin with.

Now it's fairly clear that the foundation is limited to Cutch, Pedro, Tabata, Walker (who nobody thought would be part of the 'foundation' until this year) and maybe Jones whereas Doumit and LaRoche are bench players at best and Milledge is platoon guy.

A year or more ago we did not know this, now we do.

That's how it works. NH is not Nostradamus, he cannot know which players will be part of a 'foundation' unless and until he plays them.

Ryann wrote:
We have no pitching and the only short term solution would be spend money, and ultimately make the team better for 2011.


SHORT TERM solution, yes.

LONG TERM, no.

Lincoln, Alderson, Rudy Owens, Cain, Taillon, Allie, Locke, Morris...

Plenty of long-term options.

Your main quibble w/ NH and the Pirates is that you demand they win NOW. You're unwilling to wait for future results (and really seem to prefer short term success, regardless of what it may be and even if it ends up equating to less than any potential long term success).

That's nobody's fault but your own.

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Last edited by NSMaster56 on Wed Aug 18, 2010 3:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Taillon Deal is Completed
PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:24 am 
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Ryann wrote:
The other mlb teams still outspend the Pirates by way more in payroll then the Pirates are outspending anyone in the draft.

That is true. However, the simple fact is this: The Pirates do not have the financial wherewithal to sign quality major league free agents. The do not have anywhere near the gate revenues or television revenues of the Yankees, Red Sox, Dodgers, Angels, Phillies, Mets, or Cubs, whom I categorize as the "high revenue" teams.

Further, they do not have the gate receipts or television revenues to compete with the "mid-revenue" teams, such as the Braves, White Sox, and St. Louis.

Therefore, the Pirates cannot sign a top-end free agent like Sabathia, Texiera, etc. since they literally do not have the revenue to spend $15 million per year on 1 player. Moreoever, free agents of that caliber want to sign with teams that have a solid roster in place, and with a chance for good media exposure. The Pirates would have to overpay - drastically - to sign a premier free agent.

The team could spend $20 million per year on a Sabathia or a Texiera, and be a better team. However, they will not be a winner if they add a premier free agent. The team's talent pool was limited and never going to be good enough to take the team to the playoffs in 2007. That collection of players was not going to win 92 games.

The question then becomes, "How is the team going to change the make-up of their roster? How will the club add top-tier players, of the type that will make the team a playoff participant and a team that can compete for a world championship?"

The answer is to follow the program implemented by teams like the Twins and Rays. Draft and sign genuine, top-tier amatuer players, develop them, and build your team around them. Supplement the draft selections by trading for solid contributors, preferably young players.

Look at the Rays. Their team is built on young, top-tier draftees: Crawford, Longoria, Price, Hellickson, Zobrist, Benoit, Niemann, Davis, and Shields. They traded for younger players who have also contributed, like Garza and Bartlett. Their key players are not and have never been high-priced free agents, and indeed their signing of Pat Burrell was an unmitigated disaster.

And look at the Twins. Once again, the team is founded on high-end, homegrown talent. Mauer, Morneau, Cuddyer, Kubel, Span, Slowey, Baker, Blackburn. They also added good young talent via trade in Liriano, Delmon Young, and Nathan. What big-time free agents did they sign? None.

So the Pirates are employing this approach. And by the way, the prior front office, prior to 2007, did not try to build the team by drafting and signing top-tier amatuer players. Instead, they drafted more "major league ready" players like Bullington. They did not draft power arms. They drafted good players but with limited "ceilings," like Maholm. They did not draft "tough-to-sign" players like Quinton Miller, Robbie Grossman and Stetson Allie, and then sign them.

In short, the current approach dates to the 2008 draft. Further, your criticism of the trade of established players (Bay, Nady, Marte, McLouth, Laroche, Sanchez, Wilson, Dotel, etc.) ignores the fact that this tactic is exactly the same as is followed by the Twins and Rays. Doing so adds to the pool of high-level young talent on the roster.

Finally, your statement that the Pirates minor league system ranks in the "middle of the pack" is true, but ignores where it rankes in 2008 when Huntington took over and before his first draft (26th). It ignores the fact that this time next year, with the addition of Taillon, Allie, Rojas, Maggi, etc., along with the presence of Owens, Wilson, Morris, Miller, and Sanchez will rank the system pretty high. That is because the rankings are based upon the presence of young but unproven players with very high "ceilings" (Taillon, Allie, etc.), along with very talented and successful players (Owens, Wilson, Sanchez, etc.).

I trust that this post is detailed and fact-based enough for you.


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 Post subject: Re: Taillon Deal is Completed
PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 7:39 am 
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That was very well put and on the money Bucfan.

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 Post subject: Re: Taillon Deal is Completed
PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:41 am 
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Ryann wrote:
bucco boy wrote:
Ryann wrote:
What is wrong is that we spend no money on putting quality veterans around those players. We have no pitching and the only short term solution would be spend money, and ultimately make the team better for 2011.


1. Can you explain who you think the foundation is?
2. Do you understand that most free agents are free agents because teams didn't want to give them another contract? There are a few exception each season and they go to the Yankees or Red Sox or occasionally a St. Louis or LoAs Angeles.
3. Please take a look at the free agents you think the Pirates should sign to make them a contender next year. Not will sign. Should sign. Please get this on the record. You can choose any ones you want.


1. I think our current foundation is Alvarez, Tabata, McCutchen, and Walker. I don't like to call our minor league players part of the foundation when they are not even contributing in the majors yet. We have some ok players around that foundation in Jones, Doumit, Milledge, Cedeno, but those guys especially the later 3 are not going to be huge contributors in a winning season. I wouldn't mind a lineup with that group if we could put together a decent pitching staff.
2. Do you relize that sometimes teams CAN'T give them another contract? Why do you think Jason Bay had to leave Pittsburgh?
3. There is a lot of different potential free agents on this years market. Some are gamble type players (Justin Duchscherer and Jeremy Bonderman) who if signed cheaply would be smart decisions. Some are established big leaguers with a better chance at success and will cost more.
I personally would look at those 2 gamble players and guys like Cliff Lee, Ted Lilly, Hiroki Kuroda, Aaron Haarang, Rich Harden.
Again total speculation and I am not saying all those players are going to be very succesful next season. I am saying I would like to see our GM spend some money, and do some talent evaluation/scouting on those guys and see who is the best to sign.


1. I agree. And those guys just got here this season. So, how could the Pirates surround them with free agents (bad idea anyway) when they just got here. You have been bitching for a year now about players like Adam Dunn and how the Pirates should have signed him. The time to sign an Adam Dunn is when that foundation is ready to succeed. It could be next year but more likely 2012.

2. I have no idea what you are saying.

3. Okay, you are on the record for Cliff Lee, Ted Lilly, Hiroki Kuroda, Aaron Harang and Rich Harden. I will file those names away and we will look at them a year from now and see if they would have helped the Pirates.

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 Post subject: Re: Taillon Deal is Completed
PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:40 pm 
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Then why can Cleveland, Cincinnati, Milwaukee, and Kansas City all significantly outspend the Pirates? This team needs to be getting a good signing at the pitching position this offseason or we will lose next season.

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 Post subject: Re: Taillon Deal is Completed
PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:50 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
Then why can Cleveland, Cincinnati, Milwaukee, and Kansas City all significantly outspend the Pirates? This team needs to be getting a good signing at the pitching position this offseason or we will lose next season.

You need to understand the difference between the ability to do something, and the wisdom of doing something. While I do not know if the Pirates are currently capable of spending as much as the four teams mentioned above, I can assure you that it would be a very bad idea to do so at this juncture.

You clearly do not understand how far this team has to go. We could sign the reincarnation of Walter Johnson next season and we'd still lose. One pitcher does not turn a 70-win team at best into a .500 team, let alone playoff contender.

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 Post subject: Re: Taillon Deal is Completed
PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:56 pm 
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Willton wrote:
You clearly do not understand how far this team has to go. We could sign the reincarnation of Walter Johnson next season and we'd still lose. One pitcher does not turn a 70-win team at best into a .500 team, let alone playoff contender.


This is certainly true, but I do want to say that introducing a quality #1 starter like Duscherer would have an effect on more than 1 of every 5 games. For the last few years, Maholm/Duke (or whichever is considered the "ace" in that year) have obviously been affected by how in order to keep the PBC competitive, they HAVE to win every start because no one else is winning theirs. Both guys are decent/good #4/5 starters, but that's way too much pressure for that type of pitcher and it has shown, a lot. So no, of course adding a top of the rotation guy wouldn't immediate turn our other 4 pitchers into Cy Young candidates, but I do think it would help the others a good deal.


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 Post subject: Re: Taillon Deal is Completed
PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 2:03 pm 
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Willton wrote:
Ryann wrote:
Then why can Cleveland, Cincinnati, Milwaukee, and Kansas City all significantly outspend the Pirates? This team needs to be getting a good signing at the pitching position this offseason or we will lose next season.

You need to understand the difference between the ability to do something, and the wisdom of doing something. While I do not know if the Pirates are currently capable of spending as much as the four teams mentioned above, I can assure you that it would be a very bad idea to do so at this juncture.

You clearly do not understand how far this team has to go. We could sign the reincarnation of Walter Johnson next season and we'd still lose. One pitcher does not turn a 70-win team at best into a .500 team, let alone playoff contender.

You do not know what 2 good free agent pitchers could do for this team. If these young guys can continue to develop and put out good seasons next year, then this team could win if our pitching could work

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 Post subject: Re: Taillon Deal is Completed
PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 2:41 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
Willton wrote:
You need to understand the difference between the ability to do something, and the wisdom of doing something. While I do not know if the Pirates are currently capable of spending as much as the four teams mentioned above, I can assure you that it would be a very bad idea to do so at this juncture.

You clearly do not understand how far this team has to go. We could sign the reincarnation of Walter Johnson next season and we'd still lose. One pitcher does not turn a 70-win team at best into a .500 team, let alone playoff contender.

You do not know what 2 good free agent pitchers could do for this team.

Nor do you. You also don't know if two good free agent pitchers are even available, let alone willing to pitch for the Pirates in 2011. Outside of Cliff Lee (who will not be playing for the Pirates next year), the pool of free agent pitchers for the 2010 offseason is pretty thin on talent, and the good ones are likely to move to teams where they have a better chance at winning. Therefore, I would stop acting like 2 free agent pitchers is the magical cure for what ails the Pirates.

Ryann wrote:
If these young guys can continue to develop and put out good seasons next year, then this team could win if our pitching could work

Getting our pitching to "work" would require more than just two free agent pitchers, especially when such pitchers tend to be on the average to below-average end of the spectrum.

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 Post subject: Re: Taillon Deal is Completed
PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 3:02 pm 
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I would refer Ryann to the apposite quote at the bottom of Wilton's posts.

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 Post subject: Re: Taillon Deal is Completed
PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 3:15 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
Then why can Cleveland, Cincinnati, Milwaukee, and Kansas City all significantly outspend the Pirates? This team needs to be getting a good signing at the pitching position this offseason or we will lose next season.


None of those teams you mention, regardless of past or current payroll, have been wildly successful franchises (in the last 20 years or of late). In fact, most of them (except for the Reds, who are having a somewhat unexpectedly solid season) are average at best this year [and even in the last 10+ years].

Cincinnati Reds:
Winning Seasons since 2000: 1 (and only 3 since 1991)
Playoff Seasons since 2000: 0 (and only 1 since 1991)

Cleveland Indians:
Winning Seasons since 2000: 4
Playoff Seasons since 2000: 2

Milwaukee Brewers:
Winning Seasons since 2000: 2 (only 5 since 1983)
Playoff Seasons since 2000: 1 (thier only appearance since 1982)

Kansas City Royals
Winning Seasons since 2000: 1 (only 6 six 1986)
Playoff Seasons since 2000: 0 (none since 1985)

So if those four teams are the examples of what you want the Pirates to become, I have to respectfully disagree.

I think most fans in favor of what NH is currently doing would rather see the Bucs follow the examples of the Rays, Twins, A's and maybe even the Marlins; teams who have built through good drafting and scouting and have still managed to field very competitive teams over the last 10 years even with smaller payrolls.

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 Post subject: Re: Taillon Deal is Completed
PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 3:20 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
You do not know what 2 good free agent pitchers could do for this team.


Neither do you.

Ryann wrote:
If these young guys can continue to develop and put out good seasons next year, then this team could win if our pitching could work


Or if these young guys can contine to develop and put out good seasons next year, then the year after when pitching is added from within the system in 2012 (Owens, Alderson, Wilson, Morton, Locke, Morris, Cain?, Allie?, Taillon?...) this team could win and the pitching could work.

Signing mid-level arms to big deals this offseason is not the sure-fire way to make the Pirates competitive next year and/or beyond.

It is merely the quicker and more expensive method to attempt to get said result.

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