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 Post subject: Re: Joe Kerrigan
PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:09 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
So wait the talent isn't good enough? Then doesn't that mean NH is not doing his job?

Absolutely. When Huntington arrived, the Pirates had one of the most dominant staffs in all of baseball, anchored by Matt Morris, Ian Snell, Zach Duke, Paul Maholm, Matt Capps, Shawn Chacon, Shane Youman, John Van Benschoten, Franquelis Osoria, Bryan Bullington, et al.

What pitching coach could not dominate with those studs????


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 Post subject: Re: Joe Kerrigan
PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:10 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
Ryann wrote:
So wait the talent isn't good enough? Then doesn't that mean NH is not doing his job?

Absolutely. When Huntington arrived, the Pirates had one of the most dominant staffs in all of baseball, anchored by Matt Morris, Ian Snell, Zach Duke, Paul Maholm, Matt Capps, Shawn Chacon, Shane Youman, John Van Benschoten, Franquelis Osoria, Bryan Bullington, et al.

What pitching coach could not dominate with those studs????


You forgot our Cuban ace, Yoslan Herrera.

Duh.


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 Post subject: Re: Joe Kerrigan
PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:19 pm 
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No magic involved in acquiring major league talent. Are you going to blame the struggles of a staff on 3 pitchers? Sorry but your buddy Neil brought in much of that pitching "talent" that we have right now. I never negated the bullpen, However... Pitched well? Hardly, I would say adequate for a team like the Pirates. How much value can a bullpen hold when the starters are giving up so many runs? The Pirates currently rank 21st in bullpen ERA so do not try to pull it off like we have one of the best. There was no magic in trading for, or signing the pitchers they have right now, NH made those moves (Minus the 3 mentioned DL players) and those players acquired are not looking too good to the future or current success of the team.

Im sick of this B.S. about blaming it on Littlefield, and excusing everything NH does with the excuse of DL was worse. I don't want a measly upgrade, I want a winning baseball team. Thus far NH has failed to prove to me that he is willing to take the steps to put even one field.

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 Post subject: Re: Joe Kerrigan
PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:24 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
No magic involved in acquiring major league talent.

Why don't you define what you mean by "major league talent" and then we will continue the discussion.


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 Post subject: Re: Joe Kerrigan
PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:49 pm 
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Bucco Boy and Bucfan nail it, but I'll tack on a little more:

Ryann wrote:
So you admit Kerrigan has failed in his role as pitching coach? This has to be because:
A. He is a bad pitching coach.
B. He is working without talent.
So with A it is Kerrigans fault and NH's fault for hiring Kerrigan.
With B it would just be Nh's fault for not providing major league talent at the pitching position.


Or it could be option C: Kerrigan IS a good coach and the pitching isn't as bad as we think, but his approach to coaching the Bucs pitchers doesn't work. It can happen, you know: The Steelers missed the playoffs both years after winning the SB and they had both talent and good coaching. A good baseball example are the post-1990-World Series winning Reds, who had Lou Piniella and loads of talent, but missed the playoffs every year.

Or Option D: A & B.

Or Option E: B (only the pitching IS bad) & C.

Ryann wrote:
You are correct with the pitching "stinks" and that we need to go in a new direction.

The only person that can be held accountable for the bad coaching would be NH. You cannot let him off the hook for everything.


Nor can you blame him for everything.

Ryann wrote:
If he is hiring these coaches and they are not doing a good job then that means NH is not doing a good job in hiring. The coaches and players were almost all brought in by NH yet you say he cannot be held accountable for their failures? Please explain.


Just because I am defending NH does not mean I think he is doing a terrific job. I'm just not willing to blame him for everything (and essentially say that he is an abject failure).

He cannot play or coach the games. All he does is hire, draft and trade for the people who will.

Again, he can lead the Pirates to water, but it's up to them to drink it.

I don't know why you can't see this.

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Last edited by NSMaster56 on Wed Jul 28, 2010 12:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Joe Kerrigan
PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:59 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
Im sick of this B.S. about blaming it on Littlefield, and excusing everything NH does with the excuse of DL was worse. I don't want a measly upgrade, I want a winning baseball team. Thus far NH has failed to prove to me that he is willing to take the steps to put even one field.


You're right, NH hasn't proven he is willing to take steps to put a winning team on the field.

When he hired Joe Kerrigan, a pitching coach who had been with successful teams like the Red Sox, Phillies and Yankees, he was clearly not interested in winning.

Same thing when he drafted Pedro Alvarez, Tony Sanchez or Jamison Taillon.

Or when he traded away the batch of losers he inherited from the DL era for a bunch of young prospects and then began to play the young prospects.

All of the above are clearly not attempts to put a winning team on the field.

NH doesn't care about winning, in fact, he's actually a sabotuer hired by the Brewers to keep the Pirates perennial losers.

[/sarcasm]

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 Post subject: Re: Joe Kerrigan
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 1:23 am 
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Ryann ... still waiting.

What do you mean by "major league talent"?


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 Post subject: Re: Joe Kerrigan
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 3:16 am 
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I consider "major league talent" players are players that can make a winning team in Pittsburgh.

Nsmaster you can say all you want, but you almost NEVER criticize ANYTHING NH does. Everyone on here is following the b.s. idea that it is ok as long as he gets prospects and plays them. I don't care if you get a field of 9 "stud" prospects. If they do not contribute to a winning team in Pittsburgh, and cannot perform well that means you are doing a bad job.

You are dancing around the question. There is no "nobody is to blame" scenario in which you are suggesting. Someone is at fault, and that is both Kerrigan and NH or just NH. The teams you mentioned had good talent, and actually finished somewhat respectable. I know they were not going through a period of record setting losing. Nor were they at the bottom of the league in those time periods. The Pirates are currently the 2nd to worst team in baseball.

You can only blame NH for what really matters, and that is the Pirates win loss record. And since it is so bad he has been a complete failure until they start winning.

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 Post subject: Re: Joe Kerrigan
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:44 am 
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Ryann wrote:
I consider "major league talent" players are players that can make a winning team in Pittsburgh.


Such as?

Who would you acquire that would [instantly] make a winning team in Pittsburgh?

Ryann wrote:
Nsmaster you can say all you want, but you almost NEVER criticize ANYTHING NH does. Everyone on here is following the b.s. idea that it is ok as long as he gets prospects and plays them. I don't care if you get a field of 9 "stud" prospects. If they do not contribute to a winning team in Pittsburgh, and cannot perform well that means you are doing a bad job.


Actually, if a GM can acquire such a great number of 'stud prospects', it would stand to reason that he was good at his job. But I'm sure you're quite oblivious to this fact.

Also, if a GM acquired a number of 'stud prospects' how could he be considered a 'complete failure' as you suggest NH is?

Because a COMPLETE failure would probably be a GM who didn't acquire (trade for or draft) good prospects.

But again, I'm sure you don't recognize this.

Ryann wrote:
You are dancing around the question. There is no "nobody is to blame" scenario in which you are suggesting. Someone is at fault, and that is both Kerrigan and NH or just NH. The teams you mentioned had good talent, and actually finished somewhat respectable. I know they were not going through a period of record setting losing. Nor were they at the bottom of the league in those time periods. The Pirates are currently the 2nd to worst team in baseball.


You have an amazing ability to completely misread and misinterpret what someone types.

I said:

Quote:
I am saying that I HAVE NO IDEA WHY Kerrigan is failing as the Pirates pitching coach, but whatever he is doing and regardless of whether he is or is not still a good pitching coach, he has thus far failed in his role.

It doesn't matter who is to blame, be it NH, Kerrigan or the players because the bottom line is the pitching stinks and it's probably time to go in a new direction (be it getting a new head coach, pitching coach and/or new pitchers).


I fail to see how assigning blame will HELP the situation any. Really, it doesn't matter who is to blame because the pitching just needs to get fixed. So if fixing the pitching means firing Kerrigan and/or acquiring new pitchers, so be it, but blaming someone will not fix the situation any.

Now that you have re-read what I said and will no doubt misunderstand it, you can continue your finger pointing and assigning of blame in a classic fit of stage-two grief. When you get to stage five, let me know.

Ryann wrote:
You can only blame NH for what really matters, and that is the Pirates win loss record. And since it is so bad he has been a complete failure until they start winning.


1. The Pirates are bad because the players NH inherited (acquired by DL) were terrible.
2. The Pirates are still bad despite NH trading away inherited players because the players acquired by NH and currently playing are young, raw, inexperienced @ the major league level and have yet to learn to play together well as a team.
3. Most all Pirates fans knew NH was being brought in to rebuild the Pirates, which meant there would be many rough learning years. Nobody expected or still expects this team to compete until 2011 at the earliest, but more realistically 2012.
4. I do not blame NH for the win-loss record because he does not coach or play the games. Yes he acquires the players and hires the coaches, but even if he hires the best coaches or acquires the best players it does not insure success. Plenty of major league teams spend money on good players and/or coaches and still have sub-standard win-loss records.

But I'm sure none of this matters to you because based on everything you write here, you are simply and strictly a black-and-white, all-or-nothing person looking to blame everyone for not delivering on your own arbitrary expectations.

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 Post subject: Re: Joe Kerrigan
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:05 am 
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Ryann wrote:
IThere is no "nobody is to blame" scenario in which you are suggesting.

Correct. There is also no "one person is to blame" scenario in, uh, which *you* are suggesting. Hah! Back at you!

The Pirates' current situation is a collective effort. It is not as black and white as you are trying to make it. In particular, the starting pitching is the result of the collective performances of, among others, McClatchy, Nutting, Bonifay, Littlefield, Russell, Kerrigan, Andrews and, most importantly, the players themselves. And don't forget pure dumb luck (I don't subscribe to the view, as you do, that NH should have known that Ascanio, Hart, Hansen and others would get injured after they became Pirates). It's like the Murder on the Orient Express (spoiler alert), everybody did it! To try and place the blame on any one individual is both naive and not particularly helpful.


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 Post subject: Re: Joe Kerrigan
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 12:04 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
I consider "major league talent" players are players that can make a winning team in Pittsburgh.

That is a non-answer. What talent level and production do you associate with "major league talent"??

Is it talent that dominates at AAA and deserves a chance in the majors?

Or talent that is good enough to reach the majors?

Or talent that is among the top-100 minor league talent?

Obviously not since you mock minor league rankings and deem such rankings as worthless ...

So go ahead, what exactly do you mean by "major league talent"? For heaven's sake, it is your term so you should have no problem defining it.

Amorphous, vague, and non-substantive descriptions such as "help a team become a winner" are phony. By that definition, Jose Bautista does not qualify. I believe that he has never played on a major league team with a winning record.

Also not qualifying are David De Jesus, Billy Butler, Adam Dunn, Shin-Soo Choo, Josh Willingham, Dan Uggla, Josh Johnson, Trevor Cahill, Shawn Marcum, Zack Greinke, and Jake Westbrook, who have spent either the entirety or the vast majority of their careers playing on teams with losing records and who have never played in the playoffs.

So go ahead and tell us - please - what you mean by "major league talent."


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 Post subject: Re: Joe Kerrigan
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 1:45 pm 
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Ns that is a good question. Considering we are set with acceptable talent and many positions such as 3rd, centerfield, 2nd base, ect It looks like now would be the time to sign a very good veteran pitcher this offseason.

And NS again you are wrong. When we traded players such as Jason Bay I expected major league (Or at least future major league) talent. When we had those trade pieces for the most part we got no major league talent in return. Maybe some bench players here or there, but no players that can be big time contributors to a winning team in Pittsburgh.
He acquired his best 2 prospects in Alvarez and Taillon with very early draft picks, meaning they were no brain picks and the team performed poorly last season. Look at the nationals gm. Do you think he should be hailed as a hero solely for drafting Harper and Strasburg? (Though the nationals gm has done other things right like getting Adam Dunnn)

Assigning blame is the only was to fix the situation. If you find who is to blame, and the team is doing poorly then you know who you need to fire. Very simple.
1. The DL excuse doesn't work he was fired very close to 3 years ago. NH has a team on the field that he is almost entirely responsible for.
2. Many of the players acquired by NH have small chances of ever reaching MLB success. Look at who we got in the Bay deal for instance.
3. This team will not compete until money is spent to keep the star young players, and is spent on free agent veterans to help this team.
4. The only one to be held accountable would be NH in the end. He is the one who put the product on the field and it failed. Therefore it is his accountability.

MLB talent that can help contribute to a winning team at the MLB level. The players you mentioned all would be amazing pieces if they had MLB talent around them to become a winning team.

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 Post subject: Re: Joe Kerrigan
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 5:48 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
Ns that is a good question. Considering we are set with acceptable talent and many positions such as 3rd, centerfield, 2nd base, ect It looks like now would be the time to sign a very good veteran pitcher this offseason.


And you think that one lone veteran pitcher will make Pittsburgh an instant contender (even if Kerrigan is still the pitching coach)?

I think it would help, but this team also needs a C and SS (and bench better than Church, Crosby and other flotsam).

Ryann wrote:
And NS again you are wrong. When we traded players such as Jason Bay I expected major league (Or at least future major league) talent. When we had those trade pieces for the most part we got no major league talent in return.


Again, just your own expectations. Your anger towards NH is self inflicted due to high expectations.

Most Bucco fans knew the team would be bad until 2011 and then maybe start to compete.

You're one of the few who actually expects them to make the playoffs all of the sudden.

Ryann wrote:
Maybe some bench players here or there, but no players that can be big time contributors to a winning team in Pittsburgh.


I'll remember you said this if LaRoche, Morris, Gorkys, and/or Locke ever contribute to a winning Pirates team.

Ryann wrote:
Assigning blame is the only was to fix the situation. If you find who is to blame, and the team is doing poorly then you know who you need to fire. Very simple.


So because NH hasn't turned the Bucs into winners in only 2 1/2 years he should be fired?

He should have turned a 15-year-losing team into a playoff contender overnight?

Ryann wrote:
3. This team will not compete until money is spent to keep the star young players, and is spent on free agent veterans to help this team.


This is true, mainly the first part.

Ryann wrote:
4. The only one to be held accountable would be NH in the end. He is the one who put the product on the field and it failed. Therefore it is his accountability.


IN THE END. This is not the end. So maybe hold off on calling NH a complete failure until the end (if and when he is fired/moves on)?

Ryann wrote:
MLB talent that can help contribute to a winning team at the MLB level. The players you mentioned all would be amazing pieces if they had MLB talent around them to become a winning team.


By that definition anyone on the Pirates could qualify since hypothetically since it's possible that they could go to a team w/ MLB talent around them to become a winning team.

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 Post subject: Re: Joe Kerrigan
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 6:08 pm 
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I don't think high expectations is the demands of putting a winning baseball team on the field. I want a world series team. To get to world series you need to be .500, make playoffs, and so on. NH's teams have never broke out of the celler of the NL central.


I don't expect the Pirates to make the playoffs this season, but I do expect an attempt at winning every season. NH has never showed any attempt to win he basicly gave up the last 2 seasons for the future, and still the future remains VERY uncertain considering the Pirate's history with spending money and trading.

That is great if one of the players you mentioned can be serious contributors. Will they? I doubt it.

I never said NH should be fired. I said we should take a realistic approach in looking into the decisions he has made the past 2 seasons. He is running on time I will say that. If this team turns out another absolute shit season next year, and isn't a playoff team in 2012 then it may be time for a change.

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 Post subject: Re: Joe Kerrigan
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 6:20 pm 
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Here is the part you don't understand. No matter what the Pirates did the last two seasons, they were not going to have a winning season. Even if they kept Jason Bay, Nate McLouth, Tom Gorzelanny and Jose Bautista, they would not have been above .500. How do I know that? Because they couldn't do it before with those guys. And .500 is crap anyway. You want them to contend for a playoff spot. Like you said, they have to be at least over .500 to make the playoffs. So that wasn't going to happen either. Maybe you think Huntington could have made them a playoff team over the past two season. If so, I would like to know how.

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 Post subject: Re: Joe Kerrigan
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 6:31 pm 
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bucco boy wrote:
Here is the part you don't understand. No matter what the Pirates did the last two seasons, they were not going to have a winning season. Even if they kept Jason Bay, Nate McLouth, Tom Gorzelanny and Jose Bautista, they would not have been above .500. How do I know that? Because they couldn't do it before with those guys. And .500 is crap anyway. You want them to contend for a playoff spot. Like you said, they have to be at least over .500 to make the playoffs. So that wasn't going to happen either. Maybe you think Huntington could have made them a playoff team over the past two season. If so, I would like to know how.

You cannot make the playoffs without reaching AT LEAST .500! .500 would be included in any winning season were we make the playoffs. The Pirates never make ANY noise in free agency and never target any of the bigger names. We are one of the cheapest payrolls in the league. We finally have some nice young talent in the majors and now would be the time to add some good veterans even if they are pricey.

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 Post subject: Re: Joe Kerrigan
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 7:01 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
I don't think high expectations is the demands of putting a winning baseball team on the field. I want a world series team. To get to world series you need to be .500, make playoffs, and so on.


Wait a couple years and you may see one.

Ryann wrote:
NH's teams have never broke out of the celler of the NL central.


Many players NH helped acquire in Cleveland were part of the 2006 Indians team which lost the ALCS in 7 games to the Red Sox.

The Indians also competed in 2004-2005 and 2008.

Ryann wrote:
I don't expect the Pirates to make the playoffs this season, but I do expect an attempt at winning every season. NH has never showed any attempt to win he basicly gave up the last 2 seasons for the future, and still the future remains VERY uncertain considering the Pirate's history with spending money and trading.


He has never shown any attempt to win (immediately, by splurging on FA's) and gave up the last two seasons, why?

FOR THE FUTURE. TO WIN. In the future.

There's his attempt to win.

Ryann wrote:
I never said NH should be fired.


You said he was a complete failure. Not much of a difference, unless you think complete failure shouldn't be fired.

Ryann wrote:
I said we should take a realistic approach in looking into the decisions he has made the past 2 seasons. He is running on time I will say that. If this team turns out another absolute shit season next year, and isn't a playoff team in 2012 then it may be time for a change.


Here's a realistic approach:

The Pirates were not going to have a winning baseball team with the players on the roster before NH arrived or so soon with any players he acquired.

That being the case, he was hired to rebuild the Pirates; which means growing pains and lack of competitive play for a few years and then [expected] better play thereafter.

This is year two of the rebuilding, poor and disjointed play was expected.

So maybe you should wait until next year and beyond before calling NH a complete failure.

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 Post subject: Re: Joe Kerrigan
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 7:05 pm 
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I didn't know the Indians were in the NL central? I was speaking of NH's pirate's teams.
How will we win in the future when there are NO indications the team will ever spend any money retaining players, or signing free agents. Tell me where I said Nh was a complete failure.

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 Post subject: Re: Joe Kerrigan
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 7:09 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
You cannot make the playoffs without reaching AT LEAST .500!


Jason Bay and co couldn't reach at least .500. Hence the reason why those players were moved and a new direction was undertaken.

Ryann wrote:
.500 would be included in any winning season were we make the playoffs.


Actually, in theory the Bucs could have a losing record and still win the division. In theory.

Ryann wrote:
The Pirates never make ANY noise in free agency and never target any of the bigger names.


Who were the big names NH should have targeted this last offseason?

Other than a decent SP, like Jon Garland, who?

Ryann wrote:
We are one of the cheapest payrolls in the league.


Because the Bucs play alot of young players in the early stages of their career and without big contracts. In theory, if Nutting ever decides to open his wallet the payroll will increase to re-sign players like Alvarez, McCutch and Tabata. So payroll will increase as the players contracts come closer to an end.

Also in theory, if Nutting signed a big name FA (like say... Matt Holliday) he might decide he wouldn't spend $$$ to resign players like Cutch, Pedro and Jose (he would have to choose which big-money earners to keep).

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 Post subject: Re: Joe Kerrigan
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 7:16 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
How will we win in the future when there are NO indications the team will ever spend any money retaining players, or signing free agents.


I guess the Latin Academy, and the previous drafts arent indications they've opened the wallet?

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