Proud fans of a 131-year old tradition

It is currently Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:21 pm

All times are UTC - 4 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 22 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: The Future
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 9:59 am 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:07 pm
Posts: 1689
I realize that we won't score 10-15 runs every night from now on. But seeing this group of rookies in the last week has me wondering, "is this what we have to look forward to?"

If so, me likes!!! All the young guys are showing talent like we haven't seen in Pittsburgh for SO long. I've had a big smile on my face this week. I don't know how anyone wouldn't be encouraged by what we've seen since Saturday.

Here's to hoping we have a strong 2nd half and build momentum for 2011.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: The Future
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:18 am 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:44 pm
Posts: 12254
VanSlick wrote:
Here's to hoping we have a strong 2nd half and build momentum for 2011.

Ditto.

I am looking forward to seeing how the Pirates hit against Gallardo, the Brewers best starting pitcher by far, and the Padres, who have some very good pitching.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: The Future
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:36 am 
Offline
User avatar
 WWW  YIM  Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:24 pm
Posts: 5208
Location: Zelienople, PA
Yeah, probably drop to 5 o 6 runs, and omgaard and his crew will saying "I told you so"...
:shock:

ZM

_________________
The perpetually missing headline: "Capitalism worked okay again today, and most people in the world got a little better off."


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: The Future
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 4:45 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 7:01 pm
Posts: 7545
My thought all season was for individual performances 1st...Some of these guys are on their last chance to be with the team and possibly stay in the Majors. Once these guys get comfortable, then its time to see what can happen as a team...They are going to still struggle, but nights like the last two (not exactly the open the flood gates run scoring, but the multiple hits and multiple run scoring innings) are going to happen too...

And it's nice that, for the most part, all the young guys are bunched together in the order and Doumit and Cedeno are at the bottom of the lineup...

_________________
I say keep the $50 and ban him anyway...

For those jumping ship, we'll keep the bandwagon warm for you...


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: The Future
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 8:38 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2009 6:21 am
Posts: 7170
VanSlick wrote:
I realize that we won't score 10-15 runs every night from now on. But seeing this group of rookies in the last week has me wondering, "is this what we have to look forward to?"

If so, me likes!!! All the young guys are showing talent like we haven't seen in Pittsburgh for SO long. I've had a big smile on my face this week. I don't know how anyone wouldn't be encouraged by what we've seen since Saturday.

Here's to hoping we have a strong 2nd half and build momentum for 2011.


Here's hoping as well.

I don't expect 10 runs a game, but seeing this offense start to click gives me hope that 2011 might not be a lost year.

And best of all, the question "is this what we have to look forward to?" is starting to induce hope as opposed to the usual sorrow for Pirates fans.

A very good sign.

_________________
Rage, rage against the regression of the light.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: The Future
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:42 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 8:48 pm
Posts: 83
Location: O'Hara Township, Pittsburgh, Pa.
Looks a hell of a lot better than the past. As far as I'm concerned, Alvarez has already exceeded my expectations at this very early point of his career. Tabata is getting on base a lot better than I thought. I figured Walker was a major leaguer, but not a .300 batter. McCutch has a chance to be one of the top 10 players in the National League.

Still need so many parts and a real manager. At the same time this team is so much better than the May version, that there is no comparison.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: The Future
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 2:22 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Wed May 07, 2008 11:28 pm
Posts: 2173
The only problem that seems unanswered on this team is pitching. We will really need a big upgrade in the Starting Pitching area next season through trading or free agency. There is alot of good names that could be out there.

_________________
0 straight losing seasons


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: The Future
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 3:17 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 10:09 pm
Posts: 2083
Location: Hingham, MA
Ryann wrote:
The only problem that seems unanswered on this team is pitching. We will really need a big upgrade in the Starting Pitching area next season through trading or free agency. There is alot of good names that could be out there.


OK, according to Cott's Contracts, here are the starters who potentially will be available as free agents after the current season ends. (Asterisk means that pitcher has a contract containing an option for 2011.)

Which of these would you recommend the Pirates try to sign?


Bronson Arroyo (R), Cincinnati Reds *
Josh Beckett (R), Boston Red Sox
Jeremy Bonderman (R), Detroit Tigers
Dave Bush (R), Milwaukee Brewers
Daniel Cabrera (R), Los Angeles Dodgers
Matt Cain (R), San Francisco Giants *
Jorge De La Rosa (L), Colorado Rockies
Jeff Francis (L), Colorado Rockies *
Jon Garland (R), San Diego Padres *
Aaron Harang (R), Cincinnati Reds *
Tim Hudson (R), Atlanta Braves
Cliff Lee (L), Texas Rangers
Ted Lilly (L), Chicago Cubs
Braden Looper (R)
Noah Lowry (L)
Kevin Millwood (R), Baltimore Orioles
Jamie Moyer (L), Philadelphia Phillies
Vicente Padilla (R), Los Angeles Dodgers
Nate Robertson (L)
Ian Snell (R), Seattle Mariners *
Jeff Suppan (R), St. Louis Cardinals
Javier Vazquez (R), New York Yankees
Brandon Webb (R), Arizona Diamondbacks
Jake Westbrook (R), Cleveland Indians
Dontrelle Willis (L), San Francisco Giants
Chris Young (R), San Diego Padres *

_________________
If you think nobody notices you and you're all alone, try not paying your bills.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: The Future
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 3:27 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 7:01 pm
Posts: 7545
I'd only get a starting pitcher if they would trade a starting pitcher

If you get rid of Duke and Maholm, then I'd be looking for someone...If not, stick with them and hope they gain some value...

Bonderman interests me, depending on the price, but I dont know much about him since he was injured, he was a bullpen guy earlier in the year...

_________________
I say keep the $50 and ban him anyway...

For those jumping ship, we'll keep the bandwagon warm for you...


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: The Future
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 4:19 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:50 pm
Posts: 3879
Location: Glenshaw, PA
Bob in Boston wrote:
Ryann wrote:
The only problem that seems unanswered on this team is pitching. We will really need a big upgrade in the Starting Pitching area next season through trading or free agency. There is alot of good names that could be out there.


Which of these would you recommend the Pirates try to sign?


Most of the option guys (*) will not become FA's. Anyways, my target would be 1 guy and 1 guy alone, Javier Vazquez. The guy is one of the most underrated SP in MLB. He has a string of 10 straight years with a minumum of 198IP, 5 200K seasons (something we just don't have a guy that actually misses bats) including 3 in a row, and a half run better ERA in the NL (he works off his fastball a ton). He does give up the long ball which has resulted in his ERA being a higher than his peripherals, but he is a true #2 SP on a contender and would easily be a #1 for us. The fact that he has struggled early this year in NYY will probably make him a bit discounted. He is also only 34 years (just turned) old so a 3-4 year deal doesn't carry him past 37. His current deal is 3 year $34.5 million and my guess is he won't see a big raise with the contender teams. So, we would have to overpay a little to draw him here, maybe he and Dotel are buddies from their CHWS days? A 3 year deal at $39 million would probably get it done and it would clear our books just in time to start paying Cutch and co big dollars.

_________________
Well NH did get Cutch signed, but what have you done for me lately?


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: The Future
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 4:29 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2008 10:10 am
Posts: 1336
Barrys Dopers wrote:
Most of the option guys (*) will not become FA's.

I bet at least one of them does:

Bob in Boston wrote:
Ian Snell (R), Seattle Mariners *


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: The Future
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 4:34 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:18 pm
Posts: 5231
Location: Scotch Plains, NJ
Barrys Dopers wrote:
Most of the option guys (*) will not become FA's. Anyways, my target would be 1 guy and 1 guy alone, Javier Vazquez. The guy is one of the most underrated SP in MLB. He has a string of 10 straight years with a minumum of 198IP, 5 200K seasons (something we just don't have a guy that actually misses bats) including 3 in a row, and a half run better ERA in the NL (he works off his fastball a ton). He does give up the long ball which has resulted in his ERA being a higher than his peripherals, but he is a true #2 SP on a contender and would easily be a #1 for us. The fact that he has struggled early this year in NYY will probably make him a bit discounted. He is also only 34 years (just turned) old so a 3-4 year deal doesn't carry him past 37. His current deal is 3 year $34.5 million and my guess is he won't see a big raise with the contender teams. So, we would have to overpay a little to draw him here, maybe he and Dotel are buddies from their CHWS days? A 3 year deal at $39 million would probably get it done and it would clear our books just in time to start paying Cutch and co big dollars.

You just cited three very good reasons why the Pirates should avoid signing Javier Vasquez:

1. He gives up a lot of homeruns (1.5 HR/9 in New York, which would likely remain consistent or be exacerbated by the short porch in RF at PNC Park)
2. He's old (pitchers tend to not get better with age, sans steroids, and age 34 is quite old in baseball terms)
3. He's expensive ($10M per year is a lot of cash to outlay for an average innings eater, let alone the $13M you are proposing)

FYI: HR/9 falls into the category of "peripherals". Don't treat it as separate.

_________________
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."
~H. L. Mencken


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: The Future
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 4:45 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:50 pm
Posts: 3879
Location: Glenshaw, PA
Willton wrote:
Barrys Dopers wrote:
Most of the option guys (*) will not become FA's. Anyways, my target would be 1 guy and 1 guy alone, Javier Vazquez. The guy is one of the most underrated SP in MLB. He has a string of 10 straight years with a minumum of 198IP, 5 200K seasons (something we just don't have a guy that actually misses bats) including 3 in a row, and a half run better ERA in the NL (he works off his fastball a ton). He does give up the long ball which has resulted in his ERA being a higher than his peripherals, but he is a true #2 SP on a contender and would easily be a #1 for us. The fact that he has struggled early this year in NYY will probably make him a bit discounted. He is also only 34 years (just turned) old so a 3-4 year deal doesn't carry him past 37. His current deal is 3 year $34.5 million and my guess is he won't see a big raise with the contender teams. So, we would have to overpay a little to draw him here, maybe he and Dotel are buddies from their CHWS days? A 3 year deal at $39 million would probably get it done and it would clear our books just in time to start paying Cutch and co big dollars.

You just cited three very good reasons why the Pirates should avoid signing Javier Vasquez:

1. He gives up a lot of homeruns (1.5 HR/9 in New York, which would likely remain consistent or be exacerbated by the short porch in RF at PNC Park)
2. He's old (pitchers tend to not get better with age, sans steroids, and age 34 is quite old in baseball terms)
3. He's expensive ($10M per year is a lot of cash to outlay for an average innings eater, let alone the $13M you are proposing)

FYI: HR/9 falls into the category of "peripherals". Don't treat it as separate.


OK howabout the fact that he's better than every other SP on our team, do you ever want to get better? We have to support this core sooner rather than later with some talent or its all for nothing. Why do you care about Bob Nutting's checkbook, we have the payroll space, use it to start winning games. It would be different if this would cost us a young player like the AmRam fiasco, but that is not the case. It also isn't blocking anyone as is we have 1 sure MLB SP and a host of maybe's. Locking up a spot with a known producer could have a large ripple effect on the developing players. If we believe that the top 5 bats in our order are legit, then an improved rotation in 2011 should allow us to turn the corner. Despite the HR, Vazquez had a 2.87 ERA in teh NL last year and he has been lights out for 2 plus months recently. There is no reason to think he will fall apart at 34, pitchers last much longer than that even in the 70's and 80's.

_________________
Well NH did get Cutch signed, but what have you done for me lately?


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: The Future
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 4:49 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:50 pm
Posts: 3879
Location: Glenshaw, PA
Willton wrote:
3. He's expensive ($10M per year is a lot of cash to outlay for an average innings eater, let alone the $13M you are proposing)

FYI: HR/9 falls into the category of "peripherals". Don't treat it as separate.



HR/9 is not the only peripheral as you seem to think and its not all that important if they are solo shots. Vazquez's whip is 1.24 far below MLB average. one run allowed equals 1 run allowed whether you give it up by a homer or a walk and 2 singles.

_________________
Well NH did get Cutch signed, but what have you done for me lately?


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: The Future
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 4:50 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 5:06 pm
Posts: 4211
Location: Westmoreland County Pennsylvania
Willton wrote:
2. He's old (pitchers tend to not get better with age, sans steroids, and age 34 is quite old in baseball terms)


Don't tell Mariano Rivera or Jamie Moyer that Willton. Wine does get better with age and some pitchers too. :)

_________________
Image...You can observe a lot by just watching.-Yogi Berra


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: The Future
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 5:24 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:18 pm
Posts: 5231
Location: Scotch Plains, NJ
bassoondirector wrote:
Willton wrote:
2. He's old (pitchers tend to not get better with age, sans steroids, and age 34 is quite old in baseball terms)


Don't tell Mariano Rivera or Jamie Moyer that Willton. Wine does get better with age and some pitchers too. :)

Very few pitchers can be likened to fine wine. I think of pitchers as more like automobiles: the number of miles on a car can indicate when it's likely to break down.

_________________
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."
~H. L. Mencken


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: The Future
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 5:34 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2008 10:41 pm
Posts: 843
Barrys Dopers wrote:
OK howabout the fact that he's better than every other SP on our team, do you ever want to get better?


If every pitcher that was better than the Pirates' staff was given upwards of $10 million per year, the average payroll in the majors would be about $200 million.

Barrys Dopers wrote:
Locking up a spot with a known producer could have a large ripple effect on the developing players.


Or, it could end up being a financial disaster orders of magnitude worse than the Matt Morris signing.

Barrys Dopers wrote:
Vazquez had a 2.87 ERA in teh NL last year and he has been lights out for 2 plus months recently. There is no reason to think he will fall apart at 34, pitchers last much longer than that even in the 70's and 80's.


First of all, on what are you basing the statement regarding pitchers of the 1970s and 80s? The top of your head?

Secondly, even if you're right, pitchers who lasted that long were the exception, not the rule. Physical performance peaks around age 30. Gambling $12-13 mil per year that Vazquez is going to be performing at a high level to age 37 is beyond stupid.

Finally, Baseball Prospectus projects that Vazquez will be worth on average about 3.5 wins above replacement in each of the next three seasons. A $39 million, 3 year deal would mean we'd be paying Vazquez almost $4 million per win above replacement level. I understand that we'll be paying a lot of guys the minimum, but that is still a ripoff.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: The Future
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 5:50 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:18 pm
Posts: 5231
Location: Scotch Plains, NJ
Barrys Dopers wrote:
Willton wrote:
3. He's expensive ($10M per year is a lot of cash to outlay for an average innings eater, let alone the $13M you are proposing)

FYI: HR/9 falls into the category of "peripherals". Don't treat it as separate.



HR/9 is not the only peripheral as you seem to think and its not all that important if they are solo shots. Vazquez's whip is 1.24 far below MLB average. one run allowed equals 1 run allowed whether you give it up by a homer or a walk and 2 singles.

HR/9 is quite important, as it's the reason why certain pitchers who otherwise have great peripherals give up a lot of runs. Just ask Eric Milton and Charlie Morton. Furthermore, no pitcher gives up only solo shots, and nearly half of Vazquez's gopherballs this year have been of the multi-run variety. Why do you think Vazquez has an ERA above 4.50 despite his 2.1 K/BB? You guessed it: homeruns.

Vazquez's WHIP is explained by a lucky low hit total (BABIP of .255), which is largely due to him being a flyball pitcher and the Yankees having a good defensive outfield. Vazquez has given up 3.4 BB/9 this year, which is one more walk per 9 than his career average, and his current 7.3 K/9 is likewise almost 1 strikeout below his career average. These are signs that he's losing his good control and his strikeout stuff as he gets older. Couple that with his gopheritis and the Pirates' merely average outfield defense, and I do not see how Vazquez would be a good fit for the Pirates.

_________________
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."
~H. L. Mencken


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: The Future
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 7:33 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2009 6:21 am
Posts: 7170
Ryann wrote:
The only problem that seems unanswered on this team is pitching. We will really need a big upgrade in the Starting Pitching area next season through trading or free agency. There is alot of good names that could be out there.


I agree that pitching needs to be upgraded, but I don't think it needs to be a BIG upgrade

It'd be nice if the Bucs spent some money on an above-average SP and got him in a 2 year deal (at most), but I don't think it's possible (because most players want to cash-in long term and/or don't want to play for the Pirates).

In my opinion, the only reason why the Bucs should even consider making a big upgrage @ SP is if they somehow nab a Josh Beckett type... but since that would probably require a Zito-esque deal, I would not be in favor of this.

_________________
Rage, rage against the regression of the light.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: The Future
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 11:35 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:50 pm
Posts: 3879
Location: Glenshaw, PA
OK, so we are to be satisfied with the worst rotation in the NL? You guys are tearing apart the safest bet on the market not named Cliff Lee. Apparently Vazquez has been lucky for 10 years, his otherwise top end numbers don't count. Why would we want a guy who can post a mid 3.00's ERA and take every turn. We have the picture of mediocrity (not even as we routinely manage 67 wins), why try and get better?

Where do you think we are going to get an above average SP? Taillon will be 2013 minimum are we ready to do nothing for 2 years and continue losing? The guys in the high minors project as back end starters, even being wildly optimistic you might pencil Owens or Morris in as a 3. By the time Cain and ZVR et al arrive it will be 3 years of losing on McC and Pedro. You have to take a risk to get ahead and we are in a position to take a risk because the payroll room is there and it won't hurt (other than Nutting's pocket) to be wrong. This is a risk worth taking, it holds no one back and the plus side is huge.

Oh well, nevermind, I'll go cheer my arse off for Jeff Karstens tomorrow night, he's the answer.

_________________
Well NH did get Cutch signed, but what have you done for me lately?


Top
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 22 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 4 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group  
Design By Poker Bandits