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 Post subject: MLB Trade Rumors
PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 1:02 pm 
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According to MLB Rumors, the Brewers are asking for one Top 50 prospect and a Top 100 prospect as the "foundation" for any deal to acquire Prince Fielder.

That sounds dangerously close to what the Pirates got in return for Jason Bay. (LaRoche was a top 20 prospect; Moss was a top Red Sox prospect; Hansen was a top 100 prospect and Morris was highly regarded)

And Milwaukee is often cited as how people would like the Pirates to be run.

As ZM would write, just say'n.

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 Post subject: Re: MLB Trade Rumors
PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 3:14 pm 
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Uh...maybe you should wait until the Brewers actually make a trade before comparing/defending the Bay trade. Geesh!


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 Post subject: Re: MLB Trade Rumors
PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 4:58 pm 
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PirateParrot wrote:
Uh...maybe you should wait until the Brewers actually make a trade before comparing/defending the Bay trade. Geesh!


ryann already knows the details of the trade...

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 Post subject: Re: MLB Trade Rumors
PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 7:03 pm 
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PirateParrot wrote:
Uh...maybe you should wait until the Brewers actually make a trade before comparing/defending the Bay trade. Geesh!


Why?

I was commenting on what a website was reporting as what the Brewers were asking for Fielder - who happens to be in nearly the same contractual position as Bay when Bay was traded in 2008.

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Obsessive proponent of situational bunting and 2 strike hitting approaches, reflexively pro-catchers calling good games and tasteless proponent of the value of a RBI.


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 Post subject: Re: MLB Trade Rumors
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 12:17 am 
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No. 9 wrote:
PirateParrot wrote:
Uh...maybe you should wait until the Brewers actually make a trade before comparing/defending the Bay trade. Geesh!


Why?

I was commenting on what a website was reporting as what the Brewers were asking for Fielder - who happens to be in nearly the same contractual position as Bay when Bay was traded in 2008.

Just because players are ranked in the top 100 differently or more similiar doesn't mean the guys the Brewers get will suck.

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 Post subject: Re: MLB Trade Rumors
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 12:31 am 
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Ryann wrote:
Just because players are ranked in the top 100 differently or more similiar doesn't mean the guys the Brewers get will suck.

The point is that the Brewers are asking for players in return for Fielder who fit the players the Pirates received in the Bay deal 100%. Laroche was rated as high as a top-10 talent, Hansen was top-75 and Morris was a big-time prospect and former first-round pick.

So were the Pirates "stupid" for making such a deal?


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 Post subject: Re: MLB Trade Rumors
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:03 am 
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Bucfan wrote:
Ryann wrote:
Just because players are ranked in the top 100 differently or more similiar doesn't mean the guys the Brewers get will suck.

The point is that the Brewers are asking for players in return for Fielder who fit the players the Pirates received in the Bay deal 100%. Laroche was rated as high as a top-10 talent, Hansen was top-75 and Morris was a big-time prospect and former first-round pick.

So were the Pirates "stupid" for making such a deal?

I dont care if someone is ranked number 1. That does not mean they are still number one mid season nor does it mean they will be a superstar. The Pirates got these guys and they did not produce, therefore they made a bad deal. Of course you will defend it by pre trade results? Pathetic.

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 Post subject: Re: MLB Trade Rumors
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:20 am 
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Ryann wrote:
I dont care if someone is ranked number 1. That does not mean they are still number one mid season nor does it mean they will be a superstar. The Pirates got these guys and they did not produce, therefore they made a bad deal. Of course you will defend it by pre trade results? Pathetic.

This is why you are derided for your magical prognostication abilities. You argue that you do not claim to read the future and make no claim for being able to foretell how players will peform years after a trade, but your comment shows that is exactly what you expect of Pirate front office personnel.

You contend that Huntington is an idiot, and not qualified to be a general manager, for failing to know that Hansen, Ascanio and Hart would have injuries, or that Andy Laroche and Brandon Moss would struggle in the majors.

But guess what, genius - all of those players performed very well in the minors, most at a young age for the level of competition. And did you know, Carnak the Ungifted, that front office personnel use minor league performance as a reliable indicator of success in the majors?

Or are you so ill-informed of the way in which players are evaluated and graded that I am the first to tell you this?

In either case ... pathetic.


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 Post subject: Re: MLB Trade Rumors
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:26 am 
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Oh, and Ryann, your hero Jason Bay is now hitting .255 with 6 HR's for the Mets. In the current series against the D'Backs, he is 0-12 with 8 K's.

And he is getting paid $15 million per year for production that is below that provided by Lastings Milledge.

Geez, the Mets should have contacted you before inking Bay to learn what he would be doing this season.


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 Post subject: Re: MLB Trade Rumors
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:57 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
Carnak the Ungifted



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 Post subject: Re: MLB Trade Rumors
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:57 pm 
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That was more a case of bad luck, that none of those guys panned out, though Morris still might.

The Pirates have had more than their share of bad luck over these 18 years. They just have to keep plugging away, because not all of these young guys are gonna fail.


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 Post subject: Re: MLB Trade Rumors
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 4:11 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
Oh, and Ryann, your hero Jason Bay is now hitting .255 with 6 HR's for the Mets. In the current series against the D'Backs, he is 0-12 with 8 K's.

And he is getting paid $15 million per year for production that is below that provided by Lastings Milledge.

Geez, the Mets should have contacted you before inking Bay to learn what he would be doing this season.



:lol:


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 Post subject: Re: MLB Trade Rumors
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 8:30 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
Ryann wrote:
I dont care if someone is ranked number 1. That does not mean they are still number one mid season nor does it mean they will be a superstar. The Pirates got these guys and they did not produce, therefore they made a bad deal. Of course you will defend it by pre trade results? Pathetic.

This is why you are derided for your magical prognostication abilities. You argue that you do not claim to read the future and make no claim for being able to foretell how players will peform years after a trade, but your comment shows that is exactly what you expect of Pirate front office personnel.

You contend that Huntington is an idiot, and not qualified to be a general manager, for failing to know that Hansen, Ascanio and Hart would have injuries, or that Andy Laroche and Brandon Moss would struggle in the majors.

But guess what, genius - all of those players performed very well in the minors, most at a young age for the level of competition. And did you know, Carnak the Ungifted, that front office personnel use minor league performance as a reliable indicator of success in the majors?

Or are you so ill-informed of the way in which players are evaluated and graded that I am the first to tell you this?

In either case ... pathetic.


*constant applause*

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 Post subject: Re: MLB Trade Rumors
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 8:33 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
Bucfan wrote:
Ryann wrote:
Just because players are ranked in the top 100 differently or more similiar doesn't mean the guys the Brewers get will suck.

The point is that the Brewers are asking for players in return for Fielder who fit the players the Pirates received in the Bay deal 100%. Laroche was rated as high as a top-10 talent, Hansen was top-75 and Morris was a big-time prospect and former first-round pick.

So were the Pirates "stupid" for making such a deal?

I dont care if someone is ranked number 1. That does not mean they are still number one mid season nor does it mean they will be a superstar. The Pirates got these guys and they did not produce, therefore they made a bad deal. Of course you will defend it by pre trade results? Pathetic.


Despite what you think, prospect ratings are essential to trading. But since you seem to disavow them, then I have to ask:

Who, in your opinion, are the Pirates (or ANY team for that matter) supposed to trade for if they don't base talent evaluation on prospect ratings (which are based upon many things---including player performance)???

Are teams supposed to just pick players @ random to fill out a trade or are they supposed to be able to see the future?

Please enlighten me.

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 Post subject: Re: MLB Trade Rumors
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 8:48 pm 
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NSMaster56 wrote:
Despite what you think, prospect ratings are essential to trading. But since you seem to disavow them, then I have to ask:

Who, in your opinion, are the Pirates (or ANY team for that matter) supposed to trade for if they don't base talent evaluation on prospect ratings (which are based upon many things---including player performance)???

Are teams supposed to just pick players @ random to fill out a trade or are they supposed to be able to see the future?

Please enlighten me.


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 Post subject: Re: MLB Trade Rumors
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 8:54 pm 
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Continue to go ahead and mock and spam me. You simply cannot even read an entire thread.

No.9 suggested that the Pirates trade was simliar to the Brewers trade JUST because the players the Brewers are asking for are simliarly ranked in the preseason top 100. I said that is not true, and that all stars can come out of the top 100 and forever AAA players like the Pirates acquired can come out of it.

You cannot solely make talent projections on the preseason top 100 can you? That would be plain stupid, yet that is how you are justifying the Jason Bay trade? There were better deals on the table for NH including deals where we would recieve guys like Cliff Lee and I didn't see him in the top 100 that year did you? :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: MLB Trade Rumors
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 9:21 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
Continue to go ahead and mock and spam me. You simply cannot even read an entire thread.

No.9 suggested that the Pirates trade was simliar to the Brewers trade JUST because the players the Brewers are asking for are simliarly ranked in the preseason top 100. I said that is not true, and that all stars can come out of the top 100 and forever AAA players like the Pirates acquired can come out of it.


Of course all stars can come out of the top-100, but NOTHING IS GUARANTEED one way or the other.

It is safer to assume or deduce that a top-100 ranked prospect will become a better major league ball player than one who isn't ranked because a top-ranked player has produced at high levels in HS, college and/or the minors and is so naturally gifted that most everyone can see it.

Few teams would trade a prospect in the mold of Jayson Heyward/Desmond Jennings/Dominic Brown (without demanding alot in return), but plenty of teams trade (or release) players like Jose Bautista or Garrett Jones.

Andrew McCutchen was ranked in the top-50 of prospects four times prior to making the bigs, David Ortiz only made the top-100 once and Garrett Jones never made the top 100.

And do you know who else was ranked in the top-100 prospects four times? Andy LaRoche.

Is it somehow the Pirates Front office's fault (and specifically NH's) that a player loaded with potential and who had shown nothing but the ability to succeed in Andy LaRoche has failed to become the next Mike Schmidt?

No, it is not.

And I would take a guess that there are [far] more examples of GM's who traded for players like Andy LaRoche and later ask themselves 'what happened?' as opposed to GM's who trade for players like Jose Bautista and say 'I knew it!'

But apparently you knew better and still do.

Ryann wrote:
You cannot solely make talent projections on the preseason top 100 can you? That would be plain stupid, yet that is how you are justifying the Jason Bay trade? There were better deals on the table for NH including deals where we would recieve guys like Cliff Lee and I didn't see him in the top 100 that year did you? :lol:


1. Lee wasn't ranked in the top 100 because he wasn't a prospect.
2. Can you PROVE that the Bucs had 'better deals on the table', such as one including Cliff Lee?
3. Regardless, even in your hypothetical trade, there is nothing saying that Cliff Lee would have absolutely worked out and put up good #'s/performance playing for the Pirates.

So I ask again, since you seem to know the best way to evaluate talent, what is your secret and perfect strategy for knowing when a trade will or will not work out?

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 Post subject: Re: MLB Trade Rumors
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 9:33 pm 
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Cliff Lee in 2007 was coming off an injury, a 6.10 ERA and 1.52 WHIP...

Also his WHIP was 1.40 the season before...His numbers were moving in the wrong direction at the age of 28...

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 Post subject: Re: MLB Trade Rumors
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:05 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
Continue to go ahead and mock and spam me.



Ryann,

Could you please explain what in the hell you are talking about by saying people are "spamming" you?


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 Post subject: Re: MLB Trade Rumors
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 1:42 am 
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