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 Post subject: Re: MLB Trade Rumors
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 3:58 am 
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Az is working the YouTube feature. :D


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 Post subject: Re: MLB Trade Rumors
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 2:20 pm 
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VanSlick wrote:
Ryann wrote:
Continue to go ahead and mock and spam me.



Ryann,

Could you please explain what in the hell you are talking about by saying people are "spamming" you?

Instead of showing actual facts to back up their argument some people here just post pictures and youtube videos? And thus have to mention me when I do not even post in a thread?


Andy Laroche was a VERY VERY deep draft pick, so not all top 100 players have been there because of great high school stats.
Yes it is the front office's fault. They acquired a player who ISN'T even a starter at the mlb level. You cannot back it up with this player being ranked a good prospect. The problem is NH cannot evauluate talented prospects, and thus totally blew his biggest trade piece in Bay. Yet you try to back it up with "it looked good before the trade went through"?

Exactly Lee was not ranked in you precious top 100 list, and this proves that it doesn't guarantee a players future success. Lee turned into one of the top pitchers in the game, while that Guitierez kid has been a pretty good player this season for Seattle.
The Pirates also had the Rays very interested in Jason Bay. The deal was reportedly including Edwin Jackson and other prospects. This shows me that NH is poor at evaluting talent and seemed to fail underpressure as the deadline came to an end and he made a big mistake.


You see there is no secret. You need to have good player evaluation, in order to make educated decisions while trading. When you trade Jason Bay and get nothing good in return there is something called accountibility in which our GM must be accountable for a failed trade.

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 Post subject: Re: MLB Trade Rumors
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 7:21 pm 
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Huntington can't evaluate talent?

OK.

Sure glad he was wrong about Tabata.

Ryann, you have this bizarre Estrago type hard on for Huntington and it's getting boring. If you can't see that our farm system is WAY better than it was before Huntington took over, then you just don't WANT to see it.

From 28th to 16th in 2 years. That's a pretty solid job by anyone's standards.....except yours of course.


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 Post subject: Re: MLB Trade Rumors
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 8:09 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
Andy Laroche was a VERY VERY deep draft pick, so not all top 100 players have been there because of great high school stats.


I didn't say EVERY top-100 prospect had good HS stats.

What I said was: It is safer to assume or deduce that a top-100 ranked prospect will become a better major league ball player than one who isn't ranked because a top-ranked player has produced at high levels in HS, college and/or the minors and is so naturally gifted that most everyone can see it.

As in: It is common that top-ranked prospects have a history of production (which, depending on the prospect, could be the foreign, HS, college and/or minor-league level).

Key word is OR.

Either way, it's not like the top-100 prospect rankings are handed out at random, you know.

Ryann wrote:
Yes it is the front office's fault. They acquired a player who ISN'T even a starter at the mlb level. You cannot back it up with this player being ranked a good prospect.

The problem is NH cannot evauluate talented prospects, and thus totally blew his biggest trade piece in Bay. Yet you try to back it up with "it looked good before the trade went through"?


Contradiction in bold. LaRoche was a highly-ranked prospect. He proved his talents @ the A, AA and AAA levels. Brandon Moss, too. Therefore NH COULD evaluate talented prospects (because both players were absolutely talented up until they donned a Pirate uniforms).

It is not NH's fault that the prospects he traded for have thus far failed to produce @ the major league level. NH doesn't play the games and NH can't tell the future.

If your gripe is that NH didn't acquire established major-league ready talent then I agree, but you cannot argue against NH's talent evaluation when EVERY SINGLE EVALUATION of both Brandon Moss and Andy LaRoche showed that they would be productive players.

Ryann wrote:
Exactly Lee was not ranked in you precious top 100 list, and this proves that it doesn't guarantee a players future success.


Guess what, Ryann: NOTHING GUARANTEES a players future success.

Shocking, I know.

Also, Cliff Lee WAS ranked in the top-100 (#30 in 2003) prior to him breaking through in the bigs. Amazing how that top-100 list can sometimes be a good barometer for success, huh?

Ryann wrote:
Lee turned into one of the top pitchers in the game, while that Guitierez kid has been a pretty good player this season for Seattle.
The Pirates also had the Rays very interested in Jason Bay. The deal was reportedly including Edwin Jackson and other prospects. This shows me that NH is poor at evaluting talent and seemed to fail underpressure as the deadline came to an end and he made a big mistake.


Lets say, for the sake of argument, that NH turned Bay into Andy Sonnanstine, Edwin Jackson and Reid Brignac.

Would that have GUARANTEED that said players would have had success for the Pirates (and keep in mind that Sonnanstine has gone from potential #2-3 starter to long reliever)?

Point being (again), it doesn't matter who else NH could have swapped Bay for, there is no GUARANTEE said players would have done any better than LaRoche, Moss, Hansen and Morris.

Also, I am convinced that if NH hadn't traded Bay for two top-100 prospects that Bucco fans like you would have been even more harsh of the trade, especially if and when it failed.

Ryann wrote:
You see there is no secret. You need to have good player evaluation, in order to make educated decisions while trading. When you trade Jason Bay and get nothing good in return there is something called accountibility in which our GM must be accountable for a failed trade.


Talent evaluation... like maybe some kind of a list which rates who are the top-rated prospects?

If only there was some magical list, based upon a players past production @ the HS, college and/or minor-league level which EVALUATED how good of a prospect they were.

It's too bad that such a way to evaluate talent doesn't exist...

OH, WAIT!!!

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 Post subject: Re: MLB Trade Rumors
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 10:56 pm 
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Once again Ryann......you've been....


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 Post subject: Re: MLB Trade Rumors
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 12:00 am 
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I don't hate NH I hate how some members on this board refuse to believe that he can make a mistake. You will back up anything he does wrong with some bullshit reason. Because guys are ranked in the top 100 preseason rankings that year? That makes a deal that gets the pirates no major league talent good?
It is Nh's fault that he acquired players that failed. You cannot justify trading for Moss and Laroche then they come to Pittsburgh that same year and suck.
Minor league numbers mean very little as far as talent evaluation goes.
I do not care if we went terrible farm system to mediocre farm system. How will that make this a winning team? You have to spend money if you want to win, and the Pirates should target a big name pitcher this offseason to make them a possible decent team for next season.

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 Post subject: Re: MLB Trade Rumors
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 12:43 am 
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Ryann wrote:
Minor league numbers mean very little as far as talent evaluation goes.


Wow.

So, Ryann, what things should have factored into the talent evaluation? Why don't you tell us what sorts of red flags were present on Andy Laroche that led you to believe, at that time, that he should not have acquired him?


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 Post subject: Re: MLB Trade Rumors
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 1:00 am 
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BBF wrote:
Ryann wrote:
Minor league numbers mean very little as far as talent evaluation goes.


Wow.

So, Ryann, what things should have factored into the talent evaluation? Why don't you tell us what sorts of red flags were present on Andy Laroche that led you to believe, at that time, that he should not have acquired him?

He had serious injuries before we acquiredhim.

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 Post subject: Re: MLB Trade Rumors
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 1:34 am 
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Ryann wrote:
I don't hate NH I hate how some members on this board refuse to believe that he can make a mistake.

Who has said that? Go ahead and use the search feature for any poster, and locate a post where he or she stated that Huntington has not made a mistake, or cannot make a mistake.

Ryann wrote:
You will back up anything he does wrong with some bullshit reason. Because guys are ranked in the top 100 preseason rankings that year?

This is why your comments can be so frustrating. A minor league player ranked in the top-100 prospects is a very legitimate candidate to become a legitimate major league producer. Praising a trade because the team received top-100 prospects is not a "bullshit" reason. In fact, the exact opposite is true.

You refuse to acknowledge that very good young players - the coin of the realm in MLB right now - are almost always ranked among the top 100. For example, let's take a look at the top-25 prospects for 2008. The prospects included:

1. Matt Wieters
2. David Price
3. Jason Heyward
4. Madison Bumgarner
5. Rick Porcello
6. Lars Anderson
7. Neftali Feliz
8. Travis Snider
9. Cameron Maybin
10. Tim Beckham
11. Buster Posey
12. Brett Wallace
13. Elvis Andrus
14. Colby Rasmus
15. Mike Stanton
16. Andrew McCutchen
17. Trevor Cahill
18. Brett Anderson
19. Brian Matusz
20. Frederick Freeman
21. Matt Gamel
22. Dexter Fowler
23. Justin Smoak
24. Tommy Hanson
25. Chris Tillman

http://diamondcutter.wordpress.com/top-25-prospects/

Bunch of young guys, most of whom were AA, a lot of whom were in A-ball. And you know what? That roster - just 25 young prospects - would be a darn good team. Just "top prospects." The team would look like this:

C - Posey
1B - Smoak
2B - Beckham
SS - Andrus
3B - Gamel
LF - Rasmus
CF - McCutchen
RF - Stanton

SP - Cahill
SP - Price
SP - Bumgarner
SP - Anderson
SP - Hanson

RP - Feliz

What do you know ... the top-25 prospect list for 2008 would make a solid team.

You, of course, focus on the "Lars Anderson No. 6" prospect, and completely miss the point that top prospects have a much, MUCH higher success rate than do unknowns.

For every "He was never rated a top-100 prospect but he is a very good player," you will find 500 wash-outs.

Ryann wrote:
It is Nh's fault that he acquired players that failed. You cannot justify trading for Moss and Laroche then they come to Pittsburgh that same year and suck.

He acquired top-ranked prospects for Bay, including two first round selections (Hansen and Morris) and two guys who hit very well in the minors (Laroche, Moss), plus a repeated top-20 prospect and a player ranked as high as #6 (Laroche).

Ryann wrote:
Minor league numbers mean very little as far as talent evaluation goes.

Are you serious? If so, then it should be easy for you to post statistics for successful major league players, where the player struggled in the minors.

Go to this site for minor league statistics:

http://www.thebaseballcube.com

Go ahead ... look up the production for Miguel Cabrera, Albert Pujols, Chase Utley, Hanley Ramirez, Tim Lincecum, Josh Johnson, John Lester, Derek Jeter, Matt Holliday, Andrew McCutchen, etc.

Then post the results, showing that those players struggled in the minors. That would provide some evidence, even if anecdotal, that minor league success is not relevant to major league performance, and vice versa.

(See, this is a detailed, substantive response. I await a similarly thoughtful reply from you.)


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 Post subject: Re: MLB Trade Rumors
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 1:40 am 
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Ryann wrote:
He had serious injuries before we acquiredhim.

His lack of hitting has not been due to injuries, Ryann. He played 150 games last year.

NEXT!!


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 Post subject: Re: MLB Trade Rumors
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 1:53 am 
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Ryann wrote:
I don't hate NH I hate how some members on this board refuse to believe that he can make a mistake. You will back up anything he does wrong with some bullshit reason.


NH made a mistake, but not in trading Bay. Nor is it his fault that the players he traded for haven't produced to their potential.

Ryann wrote:
Because guys are ranked in the top 100 preseason rankings that year?


I'll repeat since you either missed it, ignored it or don't want to accept it:

Andy LaRoche was a top-100 propect FOUR times (just like one Andrew McCutchen), top-50 THREE times (#74, 19, 19, 31)

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minor ... roch001and

Ryann wrote:
That makes a deal that gets the pirates no major league talent good?


No, but it's somewhat justifiable. NH evaluated the talent he was receiving for Bay and saw alot of potential (again, Andy LaRoche looked like he would become a very good 2b/3b). Perhaps he could have gotten a better deal (IF it had worked out), but the deal he got was not a pu-pu platter. He traded for top prospects.

And I'll say it again: if NH had acquired non-top-100 prospects you'd tear him new one even moreso than you already have (just like you blame him for trading a backup in Jose Bautista for a scrub prospect in Robinson Diaz).

The only way to appease you seems to be to make a trade that will, with 100% certainty, work out for the Pirates. Unfortunately, there is no such trade scenario.

NH seems to have lost on the Bay deal, but has come out quite well on the Nady deal.

That's the thing about trading (and really life in general): you win some, you lose some and sometimes you just move laterally.

Ryann wrote:
It is Nh's fault that he acquired players that failed.


Because NH is the one playing 162 baseball games and is supposed to be able to see the future?

Do you also blame the weather man when he predicts no rain and then it does?

Because when you think about it, that's all NH is: A weather man. He can't control the weather and he can't predict it with certainty, but he can take an educated guess on how it will turn out.

That's what NH did. He took a chance on Andy LaRoche and Brandon Moss, but due to actions and events beyond his control said players have thus far failed.

Ryann wrote:
You cannot justify trading for Moss and Laroche then they come to Pittsburgh that same year and suck.


Any other players acquired for Bay could have also came to Pittsburgh and sucked. I don't know why you can't comprehend this concept.

Again, there is NO GUARANTEE that ANY player(s) that the Pirates received for Jason Bay would have automatically become productive players.

Not every trade can be Ricardo Rincon for Brian Giles.

Ryann wrote:
Minor league numbers mean very little as far as talent evaluation goes.


*facepalm*

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 Post subject: Re: MLB Trade Rumors
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 2:03 am 
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Ryann wrote:
He had serious injuries before we acquiredhim.


Which is why he played 606 games in the 6 seasons before the Bucs acquired him.

And the only injury I am aware of is he:

Quote:
broke a bone in his left leg in a collision while playing first base


But according to wikipedia that was in 2002, before he was drafted. So I hardly think a six-year old injury (at the time) was a major concern after LaRoche essentially breezed through every minor-league level.

Bucfan wrote:
His lack of hitting has not been due to injuries, Ryann. He played 150 games last year.

NEXT!!


*nodding*

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 Post subject: Re: MLB Trade Rumors
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 2:11 am 
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NSMaster56 wrote:
Ryann wrote:
He had serious injuries before we acquiredhim.


Which is why he played 606 games in the 6 seasons before the Bucs acquired him.

And the only injury I am aware of is he:

Quote:
broke a bone in his left leg in a collision while playing first base


But according to wikipedia that was in 2002, before he was drafted. So I hardly think a six-year old injury (at the time) was a major concern after LaRoche essentially breezed through every minor-league level.

Bucfan wrote:
His lack of hitting has not been due to injuries, Ryann. He played 150 games last year.

NEXT!!


*nodding*


LaRoche had wrist surgery in the early part of the season the year the Pirates got him, and figured it was the reason for his terrible play the rest of 2008...

Like ZM, I wonder if his back injury hindered his numbers this year, but its almost too late to tell now that he has velcro on his butt and is stuck on the bench

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