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 Post subject: Bay is a Stand up Guy
PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 5:22 pm 
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Is it me or can anyone else remember the last time you saw Jason dive after a fly ball? I can't remember a single time this season that he's gone down trying to catch a fly. He does go back to the wall and leap but never takes a chance on injury.

Seems like way too many cheap doubles hit short of him. Why is he the last one to the ball so often?

Today several fell in front of him while Nady slid in to catch a short fly in right. Maybe it's me but where's the speed that everyone says Bay has?

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 Post subject: Re: Bay is a Stand up Guy
PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 7:03 pm 
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Bay's aversion to diving and taking chances is what allows him to play every day. I'd say that's a good thing. The fewer days Bay spends on the DL, the better.

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 Post subject: Re: Bay is a Stand up Guy
PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 9:11 pm 
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Let's face it defense is not his strong suit. However diving can be overrated. And if I remember correctly didn't he get hurt in spring training the other year diving for a ball. So he may have a bit of a mental block about it.


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 Post subject: Re: Bay is a Stand up Guy
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:34 am 
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This is one criticism that bugs me. As a corner outfielder, he SHOULDN'T be diving after any balls save for those in the gap. If it is hit to straight-away left or down the line, there is no way I want him diving. What happens if he misses it? Who, exactly, is there the back him up? In PNC Park, a ball that he dives on that subsequently goes to the wall is a triple at best, if not an inside the park homerun. In fact, I'll be honest and say that I do remember him diving for a couple balls in PNC Park that were towards the line and I criticized him for these very reasons (before we got hacked, so I can't go show the evidence).

I hate that people infer the amount of "effort" players are giving from things like this. I'd rather he play smart than to play flashy. This, for me, falls in line with the criticism that he doesn't care because he doesn't snap his bat ove his knee or throw his batting helmet after striking out (though I would criticize him for not breaking a bat over Tracy's head :lol: ).


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 Post subject: Re: Bay is a Stand up Guy
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:28 am 
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While I usually agree with BBF on issues, this one is not something that makes any sense to me.

There is no similarity to the snapping of a bat with not diving for balls.

The first is a matter of emotional release that has no impact on the outcome of an at bat much less a game. In point of fact it shows parts of a person that are out of control, not a good sign for any athlete. I lose respect for the player who thinks this show of diappointment will make him more endeared by the fans. An emotional show does nothing for the team's chances of winning unless it motivates others. Not the case with the bat breaker, although it might result in a sore thigh for the destroyer of bats.

Diving for a ball can impact the game positively or negatively. Most times if gauged correctly the ball will be caught or at least kept in front of the player. A veteren outfielder, which Bay certainly is, should be able to tell if he has a resonable chance to catch the ball. If he does, he should dive. Most quality players do this successfully. When a player chooses to not dive, he is not giving his best to the team or its chances of winning.
We are left with guessing on the motivation. Either he is simply not hustling or he is afraid he might, as you suggest, get hurt. Neither of these are acceptable for a team player giving his all for the chance to win. No, to be a top tier outfielder you must go after anything near you with gusto. Compare the way Jack Wilson plays defense. He is seen as someone who will do anything to get an out, including diving into the stands. Not so with Jason Bay.

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2011 Will Be Our Year -- well make that 2012 (just saying) So it looks like 2013 now - how long must this go on!
THIS IS IT-- NO MORE STREAK!!! *** Finally*** Time to win it in 2014


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 Post subject: Re: Bay is a Stand up Guy
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:59 am 
Diving at balls is a good thing . . . if you catch it. Making educated decisions on when to dive is important for an outfielder. Some of bay's non-dives could save runs.


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 Post subject: Re: Bay is a Stand up Guy
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 5:05 pm 
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A lineup with Jason Bay is better than one without him. I'd much rather see him remain conservative as a defender and on the field than see him start going all out on every play and start spending significant time on the DL. The all-out style is what turned Junior Griffey into a frail player in his 30's, and while that may be fun to watch, it sucks when his bat is out of the lineup for weeks at a time.

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 Post subject: Re: Bay is a Stand up Guy
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 6:24 pm 
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That argument is the same as telling players not to steal a base because sliding could cause injuries, or second basemen shouldn't make the throw to first if the runner is coming in hard to the bag, or don't slide at home ona close play because you might get hurt in that collision, and we are much better off having you healthy and in the line up.
Did Nady do the wrong thing going after the foul ball when he was injuried?

This is baseball and diving for fly balls is part of the game and a quality player's responsibility.

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2011 Will Be Our Year -- well make that 2012 (just saying) So it looks like 2013 now - how long must this go on!
THIS IS IT-- NO MORE STREAK!!! *** Finally*** Time to win it in 2014


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 Post subject: Re: Bay is a Stand up Guy
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 6:55 pm 
Substitute2 wrote:
That argument is the same as telling players not to steal a base because sliding could cause injuries, or second basemen shouldn't make the throw to first if the runner is coming in hard to the bag, or don't slide at home ona close play because you might get hurt in that collision, and we are much better off having you healthy and in the line up.
Did Nady do the wrong thing going after the foul ball when he was injuried?

This is baseball and diving for fly balls is part of the game and a quality player's responsibility.


I don't have a problem with a player not diving for a ball if there's a reasonable chance the ball is going to get bast the diving player and lead to extra bases.

I'm not advocating the "don't get hurt" theory. I agree to play the game hard.


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 Post subject: Re: Bay is a Stand up Guy
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 7:52 pm 
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I don't know that diving, per se, is a part of the game excepting a few instances like a playoff tiebreaker with the winning run on 3rd, and two outs (is that too close to situational baseball?) or, any routine fly ball tracked down by Nyger Morgan.

In short, its a special situation, IMO.

Now, what I might like to see more of would be the sliding catch in some instances. A bit safer to protect the ball and the body, and still allows a reasonable chance to make that little bit extra.

ZM

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