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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:13 am 
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No. 9 wrote:
DK's writing has taken a noticeable shift after McLouth was traded. I wonder what he'd be writing about NH and the staff's ability to recognize "outlier" performances and assess major league talent if McLouth was hitting in the 3-hole this year with a sub-.200 BA.

If "glaring mistakes" equals "sub-par," then I would like you to identify a GM who isn't "sub-par."


I don't equate "glaring mistakes" with the term "sub-par." The former is DK's reference to several of NH's upper minor league/major league acquisitions; the latter is my overall opinion of NH's upper minor league/major league moves.

And, as I note in my prior post, I'm not worried about what players do after they are traded away. I'm much, much more concerned about how the players the PBC acquires perform. Because that's what's going to determine whether our beloved Pirates win or lose...

Finally, to me, a GM isn't "sub-par" in the area of scouting and acquiring upper minor league/major league talent if, on the whole, the players he acquires perform well and help the team win. That's my simplified way of looking at things. It might be crazy, but there you go.

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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 3:38 pm 
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Hate it when all the lawyers get involved.

Now, I have to check my spellering, and watch my ",'s", ":'s", and " ""'s".

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 3:58 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Hate it when all the lawyers get involved.

Now, I have to check my spellering, and watch my ",'s", ":'s", and " ""'s".

ZM


Not all lawyers are jerks. My wife's a lawyer, and she's quite nice.

;)

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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 8:39 pm 
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NSMaster56 wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
Ryann wrote:
Yeah his team is in first place.

Seriously we can look into everything as much as we want. The fact is the Pirates are in last place, and the Reds are in first.

You make a good point about the Reds Dunn trade, but Dunn's contract I believe was expiring. Also Bay was a better player then Dunn in my opinion.

The fact is that that Jocketty is aiming at short term success, while Huntingdon is going for long term success. Comparing their records right now is an apples/oranges comparison.

Bay and Dunn have almost identical OPS+ (Bay 130, Dunn 132). I give a slight edge to Bay for his speed and defense. His defense is horrible, but not as bad as Dunn's. I'd pretty much just as soon have one as the other.


Exactly. Lets wait and see how Cincy looks @ the end of this year and the next few years before declaring Jocketty the winner above NH.

To me, Bay vs. Dunn is a wash, but I'd take Dunn since he is 1 year younger and has a more consistent bat (especially @ striking out :D )

But neither player has been so good as to lead their team into the playoffs, so quite honestly I'm not sure I'd want either.

Ralph Kiner never led his team into the playoffs, either. I'd take him in left field right now, though.

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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:13 pm 
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Willton wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
The overall point I'm making is that Jocketty's evaluations, acquisitions and moves led to an unbelievable run of success by the St. Louis Cardinals. He presided over an amazing sequence of 6 division titles in 7 seasons. That ain't luck. That's skill. And when Jocketty arrived in St. Louis in 1994, the organization was not in good shape.

If Jocketty could build a winner from the ground up in St. Louis, why couldn't he do it in Pittsburgh?

I imagine that Jocketty could build a winner in Pittsburgh. I also imagine that Neal Huntington could do the same, especially when given the amount of time that Jocketty required to build a consistent winner in St. Louis (6 years). What I think you're failing to understand is that you're ready to sell Huntington down the river without giving him the same chance that Jocketty had, especially when Huntington walked into a situation that was far worse than Jocketty did in 1994.

If you want to say that Jocketty is more well-equipped to turn Pittsburgh around than Huntington, fine. But I think you are making this judgment very hastily.


Here we are on January 3, 2013. Now that Neal Huntington is heading into his 6th year, Willton, are you ready to judge the job he's done thus far?

Oh, and if one had to choose between them, is there ANYONE LEFT ON THIS MESSAGE BOARD who would take Neal Huntington over Walt Jocketty as the General Manager of the Pittsburgh Pirates? I'm lookin' for you, ZelieMike...


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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:15 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
ZelieMike wrote:
We are about 2 years behind Cincinnati. DL was trying to win with his Moskos pick while Cin was drafting and developing guys like Votto.

ZM


I'll remember this quote. And if the Pirates aren't in first place in the NL Central in 2012, I'll remind you of it.

You believe in Neal Huntington. I get that.

I believe in results. And Walt Jocketty produced results. That's why I'd rather see him at the helm.


Well, ZM, looks like the Pirates fell short of greatness in 2012.


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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:21 pm 
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Willton wrote:
But that's the thing: you're NOT judging them by the same standard. Jocketty needed 6 years in order to turn St. Louis into the powerhouse it was in the 2000's. Huntington has only presided over the Pirates for 2.5 years. Do you not see the incongruity of comparing the career of a 14-year veteran to that of a relative neophyte?


J_C_Steel wrote:
Who would you rather have as GM of the Pirates -- Huntington or Jocketty?


Willton wrote:
Huntington. He appears to have a better grasp on the fundamentals of rebuilding a team, and he appears to have a better grasp on how to use the best available information, which includes scouting and statistical analysis. He also learned from two of the best in the business: Mark Shapiro and Chris Antonetti.

Jocketty, on the other hand, appears to be stuck in the dark ages of baseball, as evinced by his disinclination to use statistical analysis, his poor draft results over the past 10 years, and his hiring of quite possibly the worst team manager in baseball: Dusty Baker. There's a reason why Jocketty was run out of St. Louis.


Probably my favorite post in this whole thread. Jocketty, in the "dark ages of baseball," has led his Reds to the NL Central Division title two of the last three seasons. In 2012, the Reds won 97 games. In 2013, they will field an excellent team.

Do you still want Huntington over Jocketty?


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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:26 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:

Oh, and if one had to choose between them, is there ANYONE LEFT ON THIS MESSAGE BOARD who would take Neal Huntington over Walt Jocketty as the General Manager of the Pittsburgh Pirates? I'm lookin' for you, ZelieMike...


What has he done in Cincy to gain your absolute confidence? He inherited Votto, Phillips, Cozart, Frazier and Bruce. Cueto, Bailey, and Arroyo too. That's most of his current roster that makes that team good. He traded away Adam Dunn and Edwin Encarnacion for little return. His drafts (2008 on) have produced only 6 MLB players and he traded three of them to SD for Latos. All he has remaining is Dave Sappelt and Mike Leake. I'm not arguing he's not an OK GM, but I don't see why you felt the need to bring this up?

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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:09 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:

Oh, and if one had to choose between them, is there ANYONE LEFT ON THIS MESSAGE BOARD who would take Neal Huntington over Walt Jocketty as the General Manager of the Pittsburgh Pirates? I'm lookin' for you, ZelieMike...


What has he done in Cincy to gain your absolute confidence? He inherited Votto, Phillips, Cozart, Frazier and Bruce. Cueto, Bailey, and Arroyo too. That's most of his current roster that makes that team good. He traded away Adam Dunn and Edwin Encarnacion for little return. His drafts (2008 on) have produced only 6 MLB players and he traded three of them to SD for Latos. All he has remaining is Dave Sappelt and Mike Leake. I'm not arguing he's not an OK GM, but I don't see why you felt the need to bring this up?


A couple of reasons.

First, the people defending NH in this thread said they'd judge his work after he was given five full seasons or going into his sixth season. Here we are. It's time to judge the guy's body of work with the Pittsburgh Pirates Baseball Club.

Second, Jocketty's Reds are a powerhouse in the division now and for years to come. The players he inherited have blossomed, and players he's acquired -- particularly Aroldis Chapman, Mat Latos, and Ryan Ludwick -- have made a big impact. The great thing about this game is that they keep score, my friend, and the scoreboard says that Walt Jocketty has led the Reds to two division titles in the last three seasons. When should we expect a division title for the Bucs as led by Mr. Neal Huntington?


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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:28 pm 
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Nothing like a trip to the graveyard to dig up the bones of a horse beat to death.

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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 10:52 am 
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NSMaster56 wrote:
Nothing like a trip to the graveyard to dig up the bones of a horse beat to death.


I don't think it's a dead horse, NS.

Willton said he'd judge NH in his sixth year. Here we are. Bucfan said he'd judge NH when he's been in control for five years. Here we are. ZelieMike said the Pirates could be expected to be where the Reds were in 2010 two years later, which means the Pirates would have had to have won the NL Central in 2012. They didn't.

In my view, 2013 is Neal Huntington's final year to prove he can build a winner. If the Pirates don't make the playoffs, or at least win more games than they lose, then Neal Huntington, Frank Coonelly, Kyle Stark, Greg Smith, and Larry Broadway should all be fired.


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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 11:04 am 
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I agree, they have to break .500 or Huntington goes. In fact he should already be gone.

Having said that, I still believe progress is being made.


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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 11:51 am 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
Barrys Dopers wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:

Oh, and if one had to choose between them, is there ANYONE LEFT ON THIS MESSAGE BOARD who would take Neal Huntington over Walt Jocketty as the General Manager of the Pittsburgh Pirates? I'm lookin' for you, ZelieMike...


What has he done in Cincy to gain your absolute confidence? He inherited Votto, Phillips, Cozart, Frazier and Bruce. Cueto, Bailey, and Arroyo too. That's most of his current roster that makes that team good. He traded away Adam Dunn and Edwin Encarnacion for little return. His drafts (2008 on) have produced only 6 MLB players and he traded three of them to SD for Latos. All he has remaining is Dave Sappelt and Mike Leake. I'm not arguing he's not an OK GM, but I don't see why you felt the need to bring this up?


A couple of reasons.

First, the people defending NH in this thread said they'd judge his work after he was given five full seasons or going into his sixth season. Here we are. It's time to judge the guy's body of work with the Pittsburgh Pirates Baseball Club.

Second, Jocketty's Reds are a powerhouse in the division now and for years to come. The players he inherited have blossomed, and players he's acquired -- particularly Aroldis Chapman, Mat Latos, and Ryan Ludwick -- have made a big impact. The great thing about this game is that they keep score, my friend, and the scoreboard says that Walt Jocketty has led the Reds to two division titles in the last three seasons. When should we expect a division title for the Bucs as led by Mr. Neal Huntington?


So you're equating what Jocketty inherited (basically a whole team of young talent) to what NH did?

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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:21 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
So you're equating what Jocketty inherited (basically a whole team of young talent) to what NH did?


Nope. I'm saying Jocketty is a better GM based on overall performance. Neal Huntington is heading into his SIXTH season. It's on him now. He can't use Littlefield as an excuse anymore, particularly when his two best position players (Andrew McCutchen and Neil Walker) were drafted by Littlefield, and his best corner outfield prospect (Starling Marte) was signed by Littlefield.

In 2010, when I started this thread, the response was "give Huntington more time." Well, we did. And here we are.

I believe Walt Jocketty has positioned the Reds to be better in 2013 and in the future than Huntington has positioned the Pirates. I want a GM who can get the kind of results Jocketty has gotten over his career with the Cardinals and Reds.


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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:57 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
So you're equating what Jocketty inherited (basically a whole team of young talent) to what NH did?


More evidence that a 'THANKS' button is needed.

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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:04 pm 
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If NH isn't accountable for the PBC's performance in 2013, when will he finally be accountable? Can people defending NH at least answer that one?


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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:10 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
If NH isn't accountable for the PBC's performance in 2013, when will he finally be accountable? Can people defending NH at least answer that one?


It's not that NH isn't accountable; he is. It's that you're using a bad comparison to 'prove' it.

If NH is a failure as a GM here it has nothing to do with Walt Jocketty or any other GM elsewhere who inherited entirely different situations.

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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:24 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
Willton said he'd judge NH in his sixth year. Here we are.

I'm sorry, when did I say that?

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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:27 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
If NH isn't accountable for the PBC's performance in 2013, when will he finally be accountable? Can people defending NH at least answer that one?

Who is to say that NH is not being held accountable now? Is firing NH the only way to hold him accountable?

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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:14 pm 
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Willton wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
If NH isn't accountable for the PBC's performance in 2013, when will he finally be accountable? Can people defending NH at least answer that one?

Who is to say that NH is not being held accountable now? Is firing NH the only way to hold him accountable?


How is he being held accountable at all?

And if the Pirates suffer a 21st consecutive losing season in 2013, I expect NH to be fired. What else could they do? Demote him?


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