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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 4:59 pm 
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omgardd wrote:
I think this is the problem I have with most of you... do the Pirates not deserve to be belittled?

Maybe do something good and EARN our respect?


They've been belittled for more than 17 years now and much deserved.

Doing it now is just obvious and without need.

Especially from people who claim to be Pirates fans.

Self deprication is good in small doses, but despair, sorrow and the same old complaints are highly unneccessary at this point.

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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 5:02 am 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
Bucfan wrote:
You intentionally misrepresent what Willton stated, and why. He responded to your hypothetical by naming somebody he would prefer over Jocketty.


Wrong. Here's Willton's exact quote, my friend:

Willton wrote:
Not from me. I would take Josh Byrnes over Huntington AND Jocketty.


So, if he had control, Willton would replace Neal Huntington with Josh Byrnes. How did I "intentionally misrepresent" what Willton said in any way?

Because I did not use the word "replace"; I used the word "take." If my team had an opening at GM and I was given the choice of Byrnes or Huntington, I would take Byrnes. However, if my team currently had Huntington at the helm and Byrnes was available, I probably would not fire Huntington just to hire Byrnes for the same reasons cited above. And indeed, given the lack of success for the D'Backs thus far and the pedigree of the organization from which Huntington came, I would have a difficult time making the decision to "show Huntington the door" just to make what could be a lateral move.

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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:25 am 
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Willton wrote:
Because I did not use the word "replace"; I used the word "take." If my team had an opening at GM and I was given the choice of Byrnes or Huntington, I would take Byrnes. However, if my team currently had Huntington at the helm and Byrnes was available, I probably would not fire Huntington just to hire Byrnes for the same reasons cited above. And indeed, given the lack of success for the D'Backs thus far and the pedigree of the organization from which Huntington came, I would have a difficult time making the decision to "show Huntington the door" just to make what could be a lateral move.


Fair enough.

If you were starting from scratch, you'd rather have Byrnes. If I were starting a team from scratch, I'd like to have Jocketty.

For now, though, you'll stick with Huntington. I will as well, since Jocketty is obviously not available to replace him. Here's hoping that NH's methodology will reap results for the PBC in the coming years...

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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:33 am 
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And, to be clear to everyone, my position is a simple one that has been misinterpreted by some.

Just because I would replace Neal Huntington with Walt Jocketty does NOT mean I'm "judging" Neal Huntington as a failure or indicting his overall methodology. All it means is that I think -- and I certainly could be wrong -- that Jocketty is a better GM than Huntington. That's it.

For example:

We can all agree that we'd swap Brad Lincoln for Stephen Strasburg. That doesn't mean we're "judging" Brad Lincoln to be a failure or indicting his ability to be a successful pitcher. Rather, we're saying that we believe that Strasburg would simply be better at his job.

So there you go.

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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:37 am 
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JC -
Didn't you use the word "sub par" when describing NH?

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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:45 am 
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No. 9 wrote:
JC -
Didn't you use the word "sub par" when describing NH?


With respect to his (and his staff's) ability to scout and acquire upper minor league/major league talent.

Yes.

That's my primary criticism of his work thus far, and Dejan Kovacevic has used far harsher words than "sub-par" for NH's (and his staff's) performance in this area. He has stated that NH (and his staff) have made "glaring mistakes."

I responded in full to your thoughtful post on specific moves so as to provide back-up for my (and Mr. Kovacevic's) opinion.

And, as I've noted ad nauseum, the jury is absolutely still out on NH's (and his staff's) ability to scout, acquire and develop amateur baseball talent. We all have to wait-and-see on that.

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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:51 am 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
Bucfan wrote:
I say it is too early to judge Huntington, and you say you are not judging him - you are just recommending replacing him with Jocketty.


I'm saying if I had my choice, I'd want a guy with a track record of success as "the man" for the Pittsburgh Pirates. Sure. Jocketty is an example of that. But he's not available, my friend. So the conversation in this thread shifted to a general discussion of the pros/cons of NH during his 2+ year tenure with the PBC.

I've been focusing on that shifted focus for the last, oh, 22 pages of the thread. So kindly read my response with that in mind.

Now, my criticism of NH -- and Dejan Kovacevic's main criticism --is based on one primary thing: his (and his team's) evaluation of upper minor league/major league talent. It has been sub-par. If that continues, it puts the overall plan in jeopardy. Why? Because not EVERY piece of a winning team will come from the draft. He'll need to acquire other major league ready pieces. And so far he's done a bad job trying to improve the PBC through such acquisitions.

That's my point.

I agree with NH's general plan/methodology. And I agree that the jury is still out on his ability (and his team's) to evaluate amateur baseball talent. But he'll need to improve his overall acquisition of upper minor league/major league talent if he's going to turn the PBC into a consistent winner.


I like the term "sub par." But . . . tell me . . . what exactly is "par" in your eyes? You seem to set a benchmark standard and claim that NH hasn't met or crossed that threshhold. I'm curious as to where you set that bar. For instance, you claim that the team's evaluation of upper minor league/major league talent has been sub-par. I take it that you would include Charlie Morton as an example. However, let's not forget that those same evaluators "dumped" McLouth after a mere few months of above-average production. Would you agree that those evaluators appear (as of right now) to have hit the nail on the proverbial head with McLouth? Didn't those same evaluators bring in Tabata, Ohlendorf and Karstens? Hanrahan and Milledge?

You can tell me about Church, Cedeno, Vasquez, Crosby, etc . . . I could care less about those guys. They aren't the foundation. Yeah, they missed on Moss and LaRoche (or so it would appear right now) but, if it was an exact science, they wouldn't have traded for Tabata, Moss and Milledge with McCutchen as close to a sure thing as possible. To a certain extent, it is a game of numbers and attrition and having some depth to overcome those who do not pan out.

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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:52 am 
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NSMaster56 wrote:
They've been belittled for more than 17 years now and much deserved.

Doing it now is just obvious and without need.


The team set a record for most consecutive losing seasons in the history of North American team sports.

And, consequently, the team will continue to be belittled unless and until the Pittsburgh Pirates achieve some success at the major league level. You and me and every Pirate fan in the world could be on board with Neal Huntington's plan, but unless and until it translates into actual big-league success, we'll have to keep hearing about how terrible a franchise the Pirates have become...

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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:00 am 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
No. 9 wrote:
JC -
Didn't you use the word "sub par" when describing NH?


With respect to his (and his staff's) ability to scout and acquire upper minor league/major league talent.

Yes.

That's my primary criticism of his work thus far, and Dejan Kovacevic has used far harsher words than "sub-par" for NH's (and his staff's) performance in this area. He has stated that NH (and his staff) have made "glaring mistakes."

I responded in full to your thoughtful post on specific moves so as to provide back-up for my (and Mr. Kovacevic's) opinion.

And, as I've noted ad nauseum, the jury is absolutely still out on NH's (and his staff's) ability to scout, acquire and develop amateur baseball talent. We all have to wait-and-see on that.


DK's writing has taken a noticeable shift after McLouth was traded. I wonder what he'd be writing about NH and the staff's ability to recognize "outlier" performances and assess major league talent if McLouth was hitting in the 3-hole this year with a sub-.200 BA.

If "glaring mistakes" equals "sub-par," then I would like you to identify a GM who isn't "sub-par."

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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:10 am 
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No. 9 wrote:
I like the term "sub par." But . . . tell me . . . what exactly is "par" in your eyes? You seem to set a benchmark standard and claim that NH hasn't met or crossed that threshhold. I'm curious as to where you set that bar. For instance, you claim that the team's evaluation of upper minor league/major league talent has been sub-par. I take it that you would include Charlie Morton as an example. However, let's not forget that those same evaluators "dumped" McLouth after a mere few months of above-average production. Would you agree that those evaluators appear (as of right now) to have hit the nail on the proverbial head with McLouth? Didn't those same evaluators bring in Tabata, Ohlendorf and Karstens? Hanrahan and Milledge?


As I explain in another thread, what really matters to a team is not how the players a team trades away perform AFTER they are traded, but instead how the players a team trades for perform AFTER they are acquired. So I'm not all that worried about how McLouth, Bautista, Capps and Bay are performing now. It's irrelevant to the success of the PBC.

In the acquisition of upper minor league/major league talent, the overall evaluation depends on whether the acquired players actually help the Pittsburgh Pirates win games.

Even setting aside deals or moves that involved lower minor league players, look at the collection of upper minor league/major league talent that NH has acquired (and, at times, spent significant funds on) straight up -- Garrett Jones (average player at his positions, 1B and RF), Evan Meek (great reliever), Robinzon Diaz (released), Jason Jaramillo (sub-par back-up catcher), Aki Iwamura (horrendous), Ramon Vazquez (horrible back-up infielder), Dana Eveland (horrendous), Charlie Morton (bad, perhaps worth risk), Ryan Church (poor bench player), Brendan Donnelly (below average reliever), Lastings Milledge (below average corner outfielder), Joel Hanrahan (very good reliever), Octavio Dotel (good closer), Bobby Crosby (below average to average back-up infielder).

Aggregate all of those moves, and what do you get? A darn good bullpen, one average position player and a whole lot of terrible. To me, that is "sub-par." To Dejan Kovacevic, it's far worse than that.

No. 9 wrote:
You can tell me about Church, Cedeno, Vasquez, Crosby, etc . . . I could care less about those guys. They aren't the foundation. Yeah, they missed on Moss and LaRoche (or so it would appear right now) but, if it was an exact science, they wouldn't have traded for Tabata, Moss and Milledge with McCutchen as close to a sure thing as possible. To a certain extent, it is a game of numbers and attrition and having some depth to overcome those who do not pan out.


It is a game of numbers and a game of attrition. I agree with you. But the cool thing is that they keep score. So we know, over time, whether enough players performed well enough to craft a winning team.

And I DO care about guys like Church, Vazquez and Crosby. Neal Huntington would not have acquired those guys if he didn't think they could help the PBC win games. He was wrong about them. And that concerns me, as it concerns Mr. Kovacevic.

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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:13 am 
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No. 9 wrote:
DK's writing has taken a noticeable shift after McLouth was traded. I wonder what he'd be writing about NH and the staff's ability to recognize "outlier" performances and assess major league talent if McLouth was hitting in the 3-hole this year with a sub-.200 BA.

If "glaring mistakes" equals "sub-par," then I would like you to identify a GM who isn't "sub-par."


I don't equate "glaring mistakes" with the term "sub-par." The former is DK's reference to several of NH's upper minor league/major league acquisitions; the latter is my overall opinion of NH's upper minor league/major league moves.

And, as I note in my prior post, I'm not worried about what players do after they are traded away. I'm much, much more concerned about how the players the PBC acquires perform. Because that's what's going to determine whether our beloved Pirates win or lose...

Finally, to me, a GM isn't "sub-par" in the area of scouting and acquiring upper minor league/major league talent if, on the whole, the players he acquires perform well and help the team win. That's my simplified way of looking at things. It might be crazy, but there you go.

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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 3:38 pm 
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Hate it when all the lawyers get involved.

Now, I have to check my spellering, and watch my ",'s", ":'s", and " ""'s".

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 3:58 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Hate it when all the lawyers get involved.

Now, I have to check my spellering, and watch my ",'s", ":'s", and " ""'s".

ZM


Not all lawyers are jerks. My wife's a lawyer, and she's quite nice.

;)

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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 8:39 pm 
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NSMaster56 wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
Ryann wrote:
Yeah his team is in first place.

Seriously we can look into everything as much as we want. The fact is the Pirates are in last place, and the Reds are in first.

You make a good point about the Reds Dunn trade, but Dunn's contract I believe was expiring. Also Bay was a better player then Dunn in my opinion.

The fact is that that Jocketty is aiming at short term success, while Huntingdon is going for long term success. Comparing their records right now is an apples/oranges comparison.

Bay and Dunn have almost identical OPS+ (Bay 130, Dunn 132). I give a slight edge to Bay for his speed and defense. His defense is horrible, but not as bad as Dunn's. I'd pretty much just as soon have one as the other.


Exactly. Lets wait and see how Cincy looks @ the end of this year and the next few years before declaring Jocketty the winner above NH.

To me, Bay vs. Dunn is a wash, but I'd take Dunn since he is 1 year younger and has a more consistent bat (especially @ striking out :D )

But neither player has been so good as to lead their team into the playoffs, so quite honestly I'm not sure I'd want either.

Ralph Kiner never led his team into the playoffs, either. I'd take him in left field right now, though.

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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:13 pm 
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Willton wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
The overall point I'm making is that Jocketty's evaluations, acquisitions and moves led to an unbelievable run of success by the St. Louis Cardinals. He presided over an amazing sequence of 6 division titles in 7 seasons. That ain't luck. That's skill. And when Jocketty arrived in St. Louis in 1994, the organization was not in good shape.

If Jocketty could build a winner from the ground up in St. Louis, why couldn't he do it in Pittsburgh?

I imagine that Jocketty could build a winner in Pittsburgh. I also imagine that Neal Huntington could do the same, especially when given the amount of time that Jocketty required to build a consistent winner in St. Louis (6 years). What I think you're failing to understand is that you're ready to sell Huntington down the river without giving him the same chance that Jocketty had, especially when Huntington walked into a situation that was far worse than Jocketty did in 1994.

If you want to say that Jocketty is more well-equipped to turn Pittsburgh around than Huntington, fine. But I think you are making this judgment very hastily.


Here we are on January 3, 2013. Now that Neal Huntington is heading into his 6th year, Willton, are you ready to judge the job he's done thus far?

Oh, and if one had to choose between them, is there ANYONE LEFT ON THIS MESSAGE BOARD who would take Neal Huntington over Walt Jocketty as the General Manager of the Pittsburgh Pirates? I'm lookin' for you, ZelieMike...


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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:15 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
ZelieMike wrote:
We are about 2 years behind Cincinnati. DL was trying to win with his Moskos pick while Cin was drafting and developing guys like Votto.

ZM


I'll remember this quote. And if the Pirates aren't in first place in the NL Central in 2012, I'll remind you of it.

You believe in Neal Huntington. I get that.

I believe in results. And Walt Jocketty produced results. That's why I'd rather see him at the helm.


Well, ZM, looks like the Pirates fell short of greatness in 2012.


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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:21 pm 
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Willton wrote:
But that's the thing: you're NOT judging them by the same standard. Jocketty needed 6 years in order to turn St. Louis into the powerhouse it was in the 2000's. Huntington has only presided over the Pirates for 2.5 years. Do you not see the incongruity of comparing the career of a 14-year veteran to that of a relative neophyte?


J_C_Steel wrote:
Who would you rather have as GM of the Pirates -- Huntington or Jocketty?


Willton wrote:
Huntington. He appears to have a better grasp on the fundamentals of rebuilding a team, and he appears to have a better grasp on how to use the best available information, which includes scouting and statistical analysis. He also learned from two of the best in the business: Mark Shapiro and Chris Antonetti.

Jocketty, on the other hand, appears to be stuck in the dark ages of baseball, as evinced by his disinclination to use statistical analysis, his poor draft results over the past 10 years, and his hiring of quite possibly the worst team manager in baseball: Dusty Baker. There's a reason why Jocketty was run out of St. Louis.


Probably my favorite post in this whole thread. Jocketty, in the "dark ages of baseball," has led his Reds to the NL Central Division title two of the last three seasons. In 2012, the Reds won 97 games. In 2013, they will field an excellent team.

Do you still want Huntington over Jocketty?


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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:26 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:

Oh, and if one had to choose between them, is there ANYONE LEFT ON THIS MESSAGE BOARD who would take Neal Huntington over Walt Jocketty as the General Manager of the Pittsburgh Pirates? I'm lookin' for you, ZelieMike...


What has he done in Cincy to gain your absolute confidence? He inherited Votto, Phillips, Cozart, Frazier and Bruce. Cueto, Bailey, and Arroyo too. That's most of his current roster that makes that team good. He traded away Adam Dunn and Edwin Encarnacion for little return. His drafts (2008 on) have produced only 6 MLB players and he traded three of them to SD for Latos. All he has remaining is Dave Sappelt and Mike Leake. I'm not arguing he's not an OK GM, but I don't see why you felt the need to bring this up?

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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:09 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:

Oh, and if one had to choose between them, is there ANYONE LEFT ON THIS MESSAGE BOARD who would take Neal Huntington over Walt Jocketty as the General Manager of the Pittsburgh Pirates? I'm lookin' for you, ZelieMike...


What has he done in Cincy to gain your absolute confidence? He inherited Votto, Phillips, Cozart, Frazier and Bruce. Cueto, Bailey, and Arroyo too. That's most of his current roster that makes that team good. He traded away Adam Dunn and Edwin Encarnacion for little return. His drafts (2008 on) have produced only 6 MLB players and he traded three of them to SD for Latos. All he has remaining is Dave Sappelt and Mike Leake. I'm not arguing he's not an OK GM, but I don't see why you felt the need to bring this up?


A couple of reasons.

First, the people defending NH in this thread said they'd judge his work after he was given five full seasons or going into his sixth season. Here we are. It's time to judge the guy's body of work with the Pittsburgh Pirates Baseball Club.

Second, Jocketty's Reds are a powerhouse in the division now and for years to come. The players he inherited have blossomed, and players he's acquired -- particularly Aroldis Chapman, Mat Latos, and Ryan Ludwick -- have made a big impact. The great thing about this game is that they keep score, my friend, and the scoreboard says that Walt Jocketty has led the Reds to two division titles in the last three seasons. When should we expect a division title for the Bucs as led by Mr. Neal Huntington?


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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:28 pm 
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Nothing like a trip to the graveyard to dig up the bones of a horse beat to death.

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