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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 2:12 pm 
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Oddly enough, Willton said that he'd replace Neil Huntington with Josh Byrnes, the guy who was just fired by the Arizona Diamondbacks.

Is Willton "judging" Neal Huntington because he would replace him with Josh Byrnes?

Regardless, I'm not alone in saying that I think there are other guys who could do a better job than Mr. Huntington...

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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 2:15 pm 
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JC, do you know how waivers work? Nobody wanted to put him on their 25-man roster. The Pirates were willing to do that to get him into the system. It actually works out that he stunk for a week or two because it made it less likely someone would take another flyer on him.

Go look at Eveland's first six starts for the Blue Jays this season. Four quality starts in the American League. Don't you think if he could repeat that type of streak it would be an upgrade to our current staff? And he is a 26-year old lefty. I think the risk-reward there is what Huntington is measuring. Now multiply that by 20 more players and watch the odds you get some help go up.

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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 2:18 pm 
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bucco boy wrote:
JC, do you know how waivers work? Nobody wanted to put him on their 25-man roster. The Pirates were willing to do that to get him into the system. It actually works out that he stunk for a week or two because it made it less likely someone would take another flyer on him.

Go look at Eveland's first six starts for the Blue Jays this season. Four quality starts in the American League. Don't you think if he could repeat that type of streak it would be an upgrade to our current staff? And he is a 26-year old lefty. I think the risk-reward there is what Huntington is measuring. Now multiply that by 20 more players and watch the odds you get some help go up.


To JC it doesnt matter because he traded Jason Bay and Jack Wilson...So Huntington is a douche bag and Walt in Cincy is a Jesus Understudy

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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 2:25 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 2:26 pm 
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nad69dan wrote:
bucco boy wrote:
JC, do you know how waivers work? Nobody wanted to put him on their 25-man roster. The Pirates were willing to do that to get him into the system. It actually works out that he stunk for a week or two because it made it less likely someone would take another flyer on him.

Go look at Eveland's first six starts for the Blue Jays this season. Four quality starts in the American League. Don't you think if he could repeat that type of streak it would be an upgrade to our current staff? And he is a 26-year old lefty. I think the risk-reward there is what Huntington is measuring. Now multiply that by 20 more players and watch the odds you get some help go up.


To JC it doesnt matter because he traded Jason Bay and Jack Wilson...So Huntington is a douche bag and Walt in Cincy is a Jesus Understudy


When did I call him a "douche bag"?

When did I call Walt Jocketty a "Jesus Understudy"?

Can you engage in legitimate debate about NH's moves without resorting to distortions of my positions? Just like Dejan Kovacevic, I'm simply criticizing Neal Huntington and his staff's ability to scout and acquire upper minor league/major league talent. I believe that NH's record in this area over his first 2+ years with the Pirates is sub-par. Dejan Kovacevic agrees with me, and the RESULTS of those acquisitions as a whole indicate that I'm right.

Generally speaking, I agree with NH's plan and I completely agree that it's far too early to judge his (and his staff's) ability to evaluate, acquire and develop amateur talent. If my criticisms end up being "irrelevant and small" (as they've been labeled by some), I'll be happy to admit that. But we're not there yet.

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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 2:30 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
I say it is too early to judge Huntington, and you say you are not judging him - you are just recommending replacing him with Jocketty.


If you had COMPLETE CONTROL over the matter (i.e., you could get anyone in the world to fill the position), is there ANYONE that you would advocate replacing Neal Huntington with as General Manager of the Pittsburgh Pirates? Or is he the single best person in the world of baseball to be running this team?

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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 2:38 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
If you had COMPLETE CONTROL over the matter (i.e., you could get anyone in the world to fill the position), is there ANYONE that you would advocate replacing Neal Huntington with as General Manager of the Pittsburgh Pirates? Or is he the single best person in the world of baseball to be running this team?

What does this have to do with the fact that you stated that you would replace Huntington with Jocketty, and when it was pointed out that it was too early to judge Huntington, you incorrectly claimed you were "not judging Huntington"?


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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 2:46 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
If you had COMPLETE CONTROL over the matter (i.e., you could get anyone in the world to fill the position), is there ANYONE that you would advocate replacing Neal Huntington with as General Manager of the Pittsburgh Pirates? Or is he the single best person in the world of baseball to be running this team?

What does this have to do with the fact that you stated that you would replace Huntington with Jocketty, and when it was pointed out that it was too early to judge Huntington, you incorrectly claimed you were "not judging Huntington"?


It's relevant in two respects:

1. My assertion that I would replace Neal Huntington with Walt Jocketty is based on a belief that there are people out there in the world -- Walt Jocketty being one, in my humble opinion -- that can do Neal Huntington's job better than he can. That's not "judging" Neal Huntington.

For example:

We can all agree that we'd swap Brad Lincoln for Stephen Strasburg. That doesn't mean we're "judging" Brad Lincoln or indicting his ability to be a successful pitcher. Rather, we're saying that we believe that Strasburg would simply be better at his job.

2. Willton said that he'd replace Neal Huntington with Josh Byrnes, yet you seem to have no interest in challenging Willton on that front or accusing him of "judging" Neal Huntington. So, instead of attempting to get you to engage Willton, I wanted to see if there is ANYONE that you'd replace NH with so that we could have a more direct discussion on the issue.

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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 3:02 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
... in my humble opinion --

Nothing you have written on this message board exhibits humility.

J_C_Steel wrote:
2. Willton said that he'd replace Neal Huntington with Josh Byrnes, yet you seem to have no interest in challenging Willton on that front or accusing him of "judging" Neal Huntington. So, instead of attempting to get you to engage Willton, I wanted to see if there is ANYONE that you'd replace NH with so that we could have a more direct discussion on the issue.

You intentionally misrepresent what Willton stated, and why. He responded to your hypothetical by naming somebody he would prefer over Jocketty.

As for what I write - I will write whatever I want. If you do not want to read it, then don't. Your propensity for telling other posters what to talk about, what they need to say, and how they should say it is irritating beyond description. I understand that blowhard lawyers think they can "order" others around, but that does not fly on a message board. I am not some court reporter you can belittle and browbeat, as is undoubtedly your wont. I will say whatever I wish. Use the ignore feature if you have a problem with me.

Oh, and let me add a few "good sirs" and "humble opinions" just to prove how nice I am.


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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 3:16 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
You intentionally misrepresent what Willton stated, and why. He responded to your hypothetical by naming somebody he would prefer over Jocketty.


Wrong. Here's Willton's exact quote, my friend:

Willton wrote:
Not from me. I would take Josh Byrnes over Huntington AND Jocketty.


So, if he had control, Willton would replace Neal Huntington with Josh Byrnes. How did I "intentionally misrepresent" what Willton said in any way?

Bucfan wrote:
As for what I write - I will write whatever I want. If you do not want to read it, then don't. Your propensity for telling other posters what to talk about, what they need to say, and how they should say it is irritating beyond description.


I simply explained the relevance of my query and asked that you extend me the courtesy of an answer. If you don't wish to answer, you don't have to. It's a free country (and message board).

Bucfan wrote:
I understand that blowhard lawyers think they can "order" others around, but that does not fly on a message board. I am not some court reporter you can belittle and browbeat, as is undoubtedly your wont. I will say whatever I wish. Use the ignore feature if you have a problem with me.


I see no reason for you to personally attack me or call me names. Regardless, I will not respond in kind.

I have no need to use the "ignore feature" with you. I'm enjoying myself.

;)

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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 4:59 pm 
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omgardd wrote:
I think this is the problem I have with most of you... do the Pirates not deserve to be belittled?

Maybe do something good and EARN our respect?


They've been belittled for more than 17 years now and much deserved.

Doing it now is just obvious and without need.

Especially from people who claim to be Pirates fans.

Self deprication is good in small doses, but despair, sorrow and the same old complaints are highly unneccessary at this point.

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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 5:02 am 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
Bucfan wrote:
You intentionally misrepresent what Willton stated, and why. He responded to your hypothetical by naming somebody he would prefer over Jocketty.


Wrong. Here's Willton's exact quote, my friend:

Willton wrote:
Not from me. I would take Josh Byrnes over Huntington AND Jocketty.


So, if he had control, Willton would replace Neal Huntington with Josh Byrnes. How did I "intentionally misrepresent" what Willton said in any way?

Because I did not use the word "replace"; I used the word "take." If my team had an opening at GM and I was given the choice of Byrnes or Huntington, I would take Byrnes. However, if my team currently had Huntington at the helm and Byrnes was available, I probably would not fire Huntington just to hire Byrnes for the same reasons cited above. And indeed, given the lack of success for the D'Backs thus far and the pedigree of the organization from which Huntington came, I would have a difficult time making the decision to "show Huntington the door" just to make what could be a lateral move.

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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:25 am 
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Willton wrote:
Because I did not use the word "replace"; I used the word "take." If my team had an opening at GM and I was given the choice of Byrnes or Huntington, I would take Byrnes. However, if my team currently had Huntington at the helm and Byrnes was available, I probably would not fire Huntington just to hire Byrnes for the same reasons cited above. And indeed, given the lack of success for the D'Backs thus far and the pedigree of the organization from which Huntington came, I would have a difficult time making the decision to "show Huntington the door" just to make what could be a lateral move.


Fair enough.

If you were starting from scratch, you'd rather have Byrnes. If I were starting a team from scratch, I'd like to have Jocketty.

For now, though, you'll stick with Huntington. I will as well, since Jocketty is obviously not available to replace him. Here's hoping that NH's methodology will reap results for the PBC in the coming years...

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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:33 am 
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And, to be clear to everyone, my position is a simple one that has been misinterpreted by some.

Just because I would replace Neal Huntington with Walt Jocketty does NOT mean I'm "judging" Neal Huntington as a failure or indicting his overall methodology. All it means is that I think -- and I certainly could be wrong -- that Jocketty is a better GM than Huntington. That's it.

For example:

We can all agree that we'd swap Brad Lincoln for Stephen Strasburg. That doesn't mean we're "judging" Brad Lincoln to be a failure or indicting his ability to be a successful pitcher. Rather, we're saying that we believe that Strasburg would simply be better at his job.

So there you go.

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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:37 am 
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JC -
Didn't you use the word "sub par" when describing NH?

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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:45 am 
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No. 9 wrote:
JC -
Didn't you use the word "sub par" when describing NH?


With respect to his (and his staff's) ability to scout and acquire upper minor league/major league talent.

Yes.

That's my primary criticism of his work thus far, and Dejan Kovacevic has used far harsher words than "sub-par" for NH's (and his staff's) performance in this area. He has stated that NH (and his staff) have made "glaring mistakes."

I responded in full to your thoughtful post on specific moves so as to provide back-up for my (and Mr. Kovacevic's) opinion.

And, as I've noted ad nauseum, the jury is absolutely still out on NH's (and his staff's) ability to scout, acquire and develop amateur baseball talent. We all have to wait-and-see on that.

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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:51 am 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
Bucfan wrote:
I say it is too early to judge Huntington, and you say you are not judging him - you are just recommending replacing him with Jocketty.


I'm saying if I had my choice, I'd want a guy with a track record of success as "the man" for the Pittsburgh Pirates. Sure. Jocketty is an example of that. But he's not available, my friend. So the conversation in this thread shifted to a general discussion of the pros/cons of NH during his 2+ year tenure with the PBC.

I've been focusing on that shifted focus for the last, oh, 22 pages of the thread. So kindly read my response with that in mind.

Now, my criticism of NH -- and Dejan Kovacevic's main criticism --is based on one primary thing: his (and his team's) evaluation of upper minor league/major league talent. It has been sub-par. If that continues, it puts the overall plan in jeopardy. Why? Because not EVERY piece of a winning team will come from the draft. He'll need to acquire other major league ready pieces. And so far he's done a bad job trying to improve the PBC through such acquisitions.

That's my point.

I agree with NH's general plan/methodology. And I agree that the jury is still out on his ability (and his team's) to evaluate amateur baseball talent. But he'll need to improve his overall acquisition of upper minor league/major league talent if he's going to turn the PBC into a consistent winner.


I like the term "sub par." But . . . tell me . . . what exactly is "par" in your eyes? You seem to set a benchmark standard and claim that NH hasn't met or crossed that threshhold. I'm curious as to where you set that bar. For instance, you claim that the team's evaluation of upper minor league/major league talent has been sub-par. I take it that you would include Charlie Morton as an example. However, let's not forget that those same evaluators "dumped" McLouth after a mere few months of above-average production. Would you agree that those evaluators appear (as of right now) to have hit the nail on the proverbial head with McLouth? Didn't those same evaluators bring in Tabata, Ohlendorf and Karstens? Hanrahan and Milledge?

You can tell me about Church, Cedeno, Vasquez, Crosby, etc . . . I could care less about those guys. They aren't the foundation. Yeah, they missed on Moss and LaRoche (or so it would appear right now) but, if it was an exact science, they wouldn't have traded for Tabata, Moss and Milledge with McCutchen as close to a sure thing as possible. To a certain extent, it is a game of numbers and attrition and having some depth to overcome those who do not pan out.

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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:52 am 
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NSMaster56 wrote:
They've been belittled for more than 17 years now and much deserved.

Doing it now is just obvious and without need.


The team set a record for most consecutive losing seasons in the history of North American team sports.

And, consequently, the team will continue to be belittled unless and until the Pittsburgh Pirates achieve some success at the major league level. You and me and every Pirate fan in the world could be on board with Neal Huntington's plan, but unless and until it translates into actual big-league success, we'll have to keep hearing about how terrible a franchise the Pirates have become...

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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:00 am 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
No. 9 wrote:
JC -
Didn't you use the word "sub par" when describing NH?


With respect to his (and his staff's) ability to scout and acquire upper minor league/major league talent.

Yes.

That's my primary criticism of his work thus far, and Dejan Kovacevic has used far harsher words than "sub-par" for NH's (and his staff's) performance in this area. He has stated that NH (and his staff) have made "glaring mistakes."

I responded in full to your thoughtful post on specific moves so as to provide back-up for my (and Mr. Kovacevic's) opinion.

And, as I've noted ad nauseum, the jury is absolutely still out on NH's (and his staff's) ability to scout, acquire and develop amateur baseball talent. We all have to wait-and-see on that.


DK's writing has taken a noticeable shift after McLouth was traded. I wonder what he'd be writing about NH and the staff's ability to recognize "outlier" performances and assess major league talent if McLouth was hitting in the 3-hole this year with a sub-.200 BA.

If "glaring mistakes" equals "sub-par," then I would like you to identify a GM who isn't "sub-par."

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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:10 am 
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No. 9 wrote:
I like the term "sub par." But . . . tell me . . . what exactly is "par" in your eyes? You seem to set a benchmark standard and claim that NH hasn't met or crossed that threshhold. I'm curious as to where you set that bar. For instance, you claim that the team's evaluation of upper minor league/major league talent has been sub-par. I take it that you would include Charlie Morton as an example. However, let's not forget that those same evaluators "dumped" McLouth after a mere few months of above-average production. Would you agree that those evaluators appear (as of right now) to have hit the nail on the proverbial head with McLouth? Didn't those same evaluators bring in Tabata, Ohlendorf and Karstens? Hanrahan and Milledge?


As I explain in another thread, what really matters to a team is not how the players a team trades away perform AFTER they are traded, but instead how the players a team trades for perform AFTER they are acquired. So I'm not all that worried about how McLouth, Bautista, Capps and Bay are performing now. It's irrelevant to the success of the PBC.

In the acquisition of upper minor league/major league talent, the overall evaluation depends on whether the acquired players actually help the Pittsburgh Pirates win games.

Even setting aside deals or moves that involved lower minor league players, look at the collection of upper minor league/major league talent that NH has acquired (and, at times, spent significant funds on) straight up -- Garrett Jones (average player at his positions, 1B and RF), Evan Meek (great reliever), Robinzon Diaz (released), Jason Jaramillo (sub-par back-up catcher), Aki Iwamura (horrendous), Ramon Vazquez (horrible back-up infielder), Dana Eveland (horrendous), Charlie Morton (bad, perhaps worth risk), Ryan Church (poor bench player), Brendan Donnelly (below average reliever), Lastings Milledge (below average corner outfielder), Joel Hanrahan (very good reliever), Octavio Dotel (good closer), Bobby Crosby (below average to average back-up infielder).

Aggregate all of those moves, and what do you get? A darn good bullpen, one average position player and a whole lot of terrible. To me, that is "sub-par." To Dejan Kovacevic, it's far worse than that.

No. 9 wrote:
You can tell me about Church, Cedeno, Vasquez, Crosby, etc . . . I could care less about those guys. They aren't the foundation. Yeah, they missed on Moss and LaRoche (or so it would appear right now) but, if it was an exact science, they wouldn't have traded for Tabata, Moss and Milledge with McCutchen as close to a sure thing as possible. To a certain extent, it is a game of numbers and attrition and having some depth to overcome those who do not pan out.


It is a game of numbers and a game of attrition. I agree with you. But the cool thing is that they keep score. So we know, over time, whether enough players performed well enough to craft a winning team.

And I DO care about guys like Church, Vazquez and Crosby. Neal Huntington would not have acquired those guys if he didn't think they could help the PBC win games. He was wrong about them. And that concerns me, as it concerns Mr. Kovacevic.

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