Proud fans of a 128-year old tradition

It is currently Sat Jul 26, 2014 4:13 pm

All times are UTC - 4 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 69 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Pirates still are not competitive enough for fans
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:59 am 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 2:14 pm
Posts: 385
ZelieMike wrote:
[
In the 80's the Rooneys were buying those back Sunday mornings to avoid NFL blackouts for a couple of games.

ZM

Wrong

Blackout policies
Since 1973, the NFL has maintained a blackout policy that states that a home game cannot be televised locally if it is not sold out within 72 hours prior to its start time. Prior to 1973, all games were blacked out in their city of origin regardless of whether they were sold out. This policy, dating back to the NFL's emerging years on television, resulted in home-city blackouts that even extended to championship games.

Although that policy was successfully defended in court numerous times, Congress passed legislation requiring the NFL to impose the 72-hour deadline.The league will sometimes extend this deadline to 48 hours if there are only a few thousand tickets left unsold.

_________________
Image


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Pirates still are not competitive enough for fans
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:05 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Thu May 08, 2008 9:17 pm
Posts: 1163
sisyphus wrote:
ZelieMike wrote:
And further, I remember those '80's Steeler teams. One 6-10 year, and TRS was not selling out. I remember the Rooney's buying up tickets to avoid NFL blackout rules.

So, please, don't tell me how loyal the Steelers fans are. They are just as fickle as Pirates fans, and probably moreso.

ZM

No way. The current Steelers waiting list for season tickets started all the way back in 1972. There was a game back in 1987 that was attended by only 34,627, but it was played by replacement players during a strike, and it was sold out.


:lol:

My family was on the list at one point and we only had to wait 2 seasons before tickets opened up.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Pirates still are not competitive enough for fans
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 3:39 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Thu May 08, 2008 8:10 pm
Posts: 51
nad69dan wrote:
Fans have stuck it out this long and now there comes a mark like most losing seasons in a row, people are jumping ship, right when the owner hired very savy baseball people to run the organization and so far have done a remarkable job with the time and resources available to them...

Well jump the ship...but just remember you're gonna be riding the bandwagon when they come around again...

Dont go to the games, its more tickets for me!!!



It isn't just the mark (which is, in and of itself completely unacceptable), it is a total lack of progress. Now that Tampa and Milwaukee are as good as they are, it seems like every team in baseball has had a legitimate pennant race in the last decade or so. The Pirates have nothing.-- little real Major League Talent and no farm system. The Pirates spent the last several years collecting revenue-sharing checks and pocketing them. Making no strides whatsoever to improve the team. They now basically have no shot at winning for a while. Even though this new regime seems better than the last one, I have to wonder about the bone-headed decisions John Russell makes and wonder if there really is any progress.

There is a difference between a fair weather fan and a fan who knows he is being cheated by the team he has supported his whole life. A Mariners fan who gives up on his team this year is a fair weather fan. They showed promise last year, made some real additions to the team and it didn't work. They'll dust off and try again next year. If the Bucs a 75th straight losing season, pocketing revenue-sharing and still no prospects for the future, will you still call the people who turn their back fair weather? At what point do you realize you are being ripped-off?

Hey, I still go to a couple every year. I like baseball and it is something to do. But I won't make any real commitment until they do. I have given them enough. Some people, like BH, may call me an enabler for going to those two games. And that is fine. But I would like to go to a dozen or so, but the Pirates have used all my goodwill.

The people of Pittsburgh have finally had enough of the crap the Nuttings have been shoveling at them. The walk-out was the first warning, the dropping attendance is another.

_________________
2008 World Series. Tampa Bay vs. Philadelphia. I am so sick of seeing the same teams succeed in baseball every year!

Formerly "The_Tracy_Turnaround"


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Pirates still are not competitive enough for fans
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 4:36 pm 
Welfare_Fraud wrote:
nad69dan wrote:
Fans have stuck it out this long and now there comes a mark like most losing seasons in a row, people are jumping ship, right when the owner hired very savy baseball people to run the organization and so far have done a remarkable job with the time and resources available to them...

Well jump the ship...but just remember you're gonna be riding the bandwagon when they come around again...

Dont go to the games, its more tickets for me!!!



It isn't just the mark (which is, in and of itself completely unacceptable), it is a total lack of progress. Now that Tampa and Milwaukee are as good as they are, it seems like every team in baseball has had a legitimate pennant race in the last decade or so. The Pirates have nothing.-- little real Major League Talent and no farm system. The Pirates spent the last several years collecting revenue-sharing checks and pocketing them. Making no strides whatsoever to improve the team. They now basically have no shot at winning for a while. Even though this new regime seems better than the last one, I have to wonder about the bone-headed decisions John Russell makes and wonder if there really is any progress.

There is a difference between a fair weather fan and a fan who knows he is being cheated by the team he has supported his whole life. A Mariners fan who gives up on his team this year is a fair weather fan. They showed promise last year, made some real additions to the team and it didn't work. They'll dust off and try again next year. If the Bucs a 75th straight losing season, pocketing revenue-sharing and still no prospects for the future, will you still call the people who turn their back fair weather? At what point do you realize you are being ripped-off?

Hey, I still go to a couple every year. I like baseball and it is something to do. But I won't make any real commitment until they do. I have given them enough. Some people, like BH, may call me an enabler for going to those two games. And that is fine. But I would like to go to a dozen or so, but the Pirates have used all my goodwill.

The people of Pittsburgh have finally had enough of the crap the Nuttings have been shoveling at them. The walk-out was the first warning, the dropping attendance is another.


Great post, Welfare.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Pirates still are not competitive enough for fans
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 4:38 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 2:14 pm
Posts: 385
Welfare_Fraud

I'll give you credit for scaling back. Thats what I did a few years ago and then I just stopped going period. People keep talking about new management? The Nuttings have been the largest owner of the Pirates since 96 and money in their pockets(paying debt..call it what you want)is the reason the team has sucked and is in the pathetic condition from a win loss record with a bleak future with little to no prospects for the future.

_________________
Image


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Pirates still are not competitive enough for fans
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 9:45 am 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 7:01 pm
Posts: 7194
Welfare_Fraud wrote:
nad69dan wrote:
Fans have stuck it out this long and now there comes a mark like most losing seasons in a row, people are jumping ship, right when the owner hired very savy baseball people to run the organization and so far have done a remarkable job with the time and resources available to them...

Well jump the ship...but just remember you're gonna be riding the bandwagon when they come around again...

Dont go to the games, its more tickets for me!!!



It isn't just the mark (which is, in and of itself completely unacceptable), it is a total lack of progress. Now that Tampa and Milwaukee are as good as they are, it seems like every team in baseball has had a legitimate pennant race in the last decade or so. The Pirates have nothing.-- little real Major League Talent and no farm system. The Pirates spent the last several years collecting revenue-sharing checks and pocketing them. Making no strides whatsoever to improve the team. They now basically have no shot at winning for a while. Even though this new regime seems better than the last one, I have to wonder about the bone-headed decisions John Russell makes and wonder if there really is any progress.

There is a difference between a fair weather fan and a fan who knows he is being cheated by the team he has supported his whole life. A Mariners fan who gives up on his team this year is a fair weather fan. They showed promise last year, made some real additions to the team and it didn't work. They'll dust off and try again next year. If the Bucs a 75th straight losing season, pocketing revenue-sharing and still no prospects for the future, will you still call the people who turn their back fair weather? At what point do you realize you are being ripped-off?

Hey, I still go to a couple every year. I like baseball and it is something to do. But I won't make any real commitment until they do. I have given them enough. Some people, like BH, may call me an enabler for going to those two games. And that is fine. But I would like to go to a dozen or so, but the Pirates have used all my goodwill.

The people of Pittsburgh have finally had enough of the crap the Nuttings have been shoveling at them. The walk-out was the first warning, the dropping attendance is another.


I understand your point, but you need to understand that this regime is totally different and have proved that with every move they have made so far this season, and in the draft. These guys in the front office are legit. Its too bad they took over a team with the Major League team thin on talent, and the minors in a wreck...theres only 3 or 4 possible star prospects in the whole system!!!
Lumping the past failures onto these guys cuz they are in charge now should not happen. Thats why I made the bandwagon comment, you're jumping ship while the ship is at the lowest, though there's a crew in place that's laying a plan out how to raise it again.

_________________
I say keep the $50 and ban him anyway...

For those jumping ship, we'll keep the bandwagon warm for you...


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Pirates still are not competitive enough for fans
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 10:16 am 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 2:14 pm
Posts: 385
nad69dan wrote:
you need to understand that this regime is totally different and have proved that with every move they have made so far this season, and in the draft. These guys in the front office are legit. Its too bad they took over a team with the Major League team thin on talent, and the minors in a wreck...theres only 3 or 4 possible star prospects in the whole system!!!
Lumping the past failures onto these guys cuz they are in charge now should not happen.


Whoa...follow the money. The Nutting family money has been in control since 96. The Prez, GM & Manager may have changed but shtt still flows downhill. Nothing has been "proved". Time will tell. The past is still the same as the present when it comes to the money and that has and still does have the most influence as to how this business operates.

_________________
Image


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Pirates still are not competitive enough for fans
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:29 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 7:01 pm
Posts: 7194
Having this conversation with you BH is pointless, its been discussed here before, and numerous others have brought up about Nutting's involvement in the team and their control status...

So I'm gonna end something I knew better to get involved in with you...

I just hope you're good a hitchhiking your way on the bandwagon when Nutting is still in charge and the team is winning...

_________________
I say keep the $50 and ban him anyway...

For those jumping ship, we'll keep the bandwagon warm for you...


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Pirates still are not competitive enough for fans
PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:28 am 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 3:45 pm
Posts: 1296
Location: Bowie, Md
What I find very interesting is that the argument that has gone on for the better part of this year is starting to lose credibility.

Argument 1: The Pirates want to keep salaries low and won't pay anybody.

Reality: The Pirates tried to lock down core players for extended years and already have Bay and Wilson signed to very nice deals. Additionally, the Pirates are not interested in "salary dumping," according to NH the financials are not a concern. On that note, if this ballclub was 50-40 and pressing towards a playoff spot, I believe NH and Nutting would be looking for a guy like Sabathia or maybe Sabathia himself.

Argument 2: The Pirates aren't trying to win now.

Reality: Talks of keeping Bay and Wilson unless they are "blown out of the water" by a deal indicates that the Pirates aren't interested in destroying the nucleus of this team quite yet.

Argument 3: We should have done more during the offseason to aquire FA help.

Reality: You would be a great GM if you knew your top 2 starters would virtualy bail out on you for the season, but NH did get Dumatrait who I believe will thrive for the Bucs. In looking over the 2007 FA list, I see not one player that would have helped(aside from the obvious like AROD).

Argument 4: NH and Nutting aren't spending money and trying to make us win now.

Reality: If you don't like how NH operates, I am suprised you didn't have a coronary during the Cam Bonifay then David Littlefield eras. Littlefield spent the money on lousy free agents just as some of you had requested, and look where it lead us, we spent so much money on FA's that we had to trade away a star 3B for "financial reasons." Spending money isn't always the answer.

Argument 5: Pirates are still not competitive enough for fans

Reality: We are 1 year removed from probably the worst GM we've had, that left us with a minor leagues devoid of talent, 1st round picks all floundering, some talent on the MLB club but not enough. I like NH and I think he is outstanding, but he is not a miracle worker. For all of you fans that are bailing on the Bucs this year, I can only wonder if you actually know what is really going on. If you thought we were going to win right away maybe you are delusional or overly optimistic. I mean, I am optimistic, but I know that this could be a process that may take 2-3 years.

This is what I believe has been the process;
1. Bring in the right kind of coaching and management to EFFECTIVELY evaluate and develop talent
2. Try to quickly get an idea of what is in house already(maybe some players were being developed poorly)
3. Move players into better positions, to higher or lower minor league teams, filter out the talent at the MLB level
4. Spend money on core players that we want around so that we can reap the rewards of their development
5. Restock the minors through the draft and possible deals, without destroying the team(total rebuild mode)

This is what I believe will happen in the future:
1. The minor leagues will be better stocked, better talent
2. The talent we have in the minors now will be introduced to the MLB level to mix with the core set of guys
3. We will begin to win more consistantly
4. The team will be in a better position (with prospects and finances) to add major talent at the deadline for a playoff push.
5. With a quality evaluation system and better deveolpment, the Pirates should be able to sustain success for longer periods of time.

Bailing on the Pirates now is just a waste. How would you feel if I just hired you, put you on a project that was failing and then fired you 2 weeks in because the project was still failing. Turning around a team that is in this bad of shape will take time. Your arguments really hold no water.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Pirates still are not competitive enough for fans
PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:33 am 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:22 pm
Posts: 2495
P13, very good post. Well articulated.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Pirates still are not competitive enough for fans
PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:35 am 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 3:45 pm
Posts: 1296
Location: Bowie, Md
Thank you sir


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Pirates still are not competitive enough for fans
PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:36 am 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Thu May 08, 2008 9:17 pm
Posts: 1163
I think we might have found BH's kryptonite.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Pirates still are not competitive enough for fans
PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:38 am 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 3:45 pm
Posts: 1296
Location: Bowie, Md
Jeremy wrote:
I think we might have found BH's kryptonite.


Yes... the truth


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Pirates still are not competitive enough for fans
PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:51 am 
nad69dan wrote:
I understand your point, but you need to understand that this regime is totally different and have proved that with every move they have made so far this season, and in the draft. These guys in the front office are legit. Its too bad they took over a team with the Major League team thin on talent, and the minors in a wreck...theres only 3 or 4 possible star prospects in the whole system!!!
Lumping the past failures onto these guys cuz they are in charge now should not happen. Thats why I made the bandwagon comment, you're jumping ship while the ship is at the lowest, though there's a crew in place that's laying a plan out how to raise it again.


One correction, nad69dan, this isn't a "totally different" regime. Nutting has been a primary

That said, there are some signs that things are different now and things may be changing, which is very exciting. But they have not PROVEN anything. The Pirates are still a team that loses far more games than they win.

There are SIGNS things are turning around but nothing is PROVEN til they win.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Pirates still are not competitive enough for fans
PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:55 am 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 3:45 pm
Posts: 1296
Location: Bowie, Md
Elmer wrote:
nad69dan wrote:
I understand your point, but you need to understand that this regime is totally different and have proved that with every move they have made so far this season, and in the draft. These guys in the front office are legit. Its too bad they took over a team with the Major League team thin on talent, and the minors in a wreck...theres only 3 or 4 possible star prospects in the whole system!!!
Lumping the past failures onto these guys cuz they are in charge now should not happen. Thats why I made the bandwagon comment, you're jumping ship while the ship is at the lowest, though there's a crew in place that's laying a plan out how to raise it again.


One correction, nad69dan, this isn't a "totally different" regime. Nutting has been a primary

That said, there are some signs that things are different now and things may be changing, which is very exciting. But they have not PROVEN anything. The Pirates are still a team that loses far more games than they win.

There are SIGNS things are turning around but nothing is PROVEN til they win.


And I will agree with you Elmer, Nutting has said that he will spend at the right time. I don't think now is the right time, but there will come a time when it will be right and I want to see action just as much as you.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Pirates still are not competitive enough for fans
PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:00 am 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 7:01 pm
Posts: 7194
Elmer wrote:
nad69dan wrote:
I understand your point, but you need to understand that this regime is totally different and have proved that with every move they have made so far this season, and in the draft. These guys in the front office are legit. Its too bad they took over a team with the Major League team thin on talent, and the minors in a wreck...theres only 3 or 4 possible star prospects in the whole system!!!
Lumping the past failures onto these guys cuz they are in charge now should not happen. Thats why I made the bandwagon comment, you're jumping ship while the ship is at the lowest, though there's a crew in place that's laying a plan out how to raise it again.


One correction, nad69dan, this isn't a "totally different" regime. Nutting has been a primary

That said, there are some signs that things are different now and things may be changing, which is very exciting. But they have not PROVEN anything. The Pirates are still a team that loses far more games than they win.

There are SIGNS things are turning around but nothing is PROVEN til they win.



Yes, we all know Nutting was part of the ownership prior...BUT, Nutting wasnt making the baseball decisions and didnt have much say in the running of the club until last season...McClatchy was the one running it...


Nutting got him to step down, fired Littlefield and then fired Tracy and brought in Coonley and Huntington and Russell and spent money to build a new academy in Latin America...

_________________
I say keep the $50 and ban him anyway...

For those jumping ship, we'll keep the bandwagon warm for you...


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Pirates still are not competitive enough for fans
PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:07 pm 
nad69dan wrote:
Elmer wrote:
nad69dan wrote:
I understand your point, but you need to understand that this regime is totally different and have proved that with every move they have made so far this season, and in the draft. These guys in the front office are legit. Its too bad they took over a team with the Major League team thin on talent, and the minors in a wreck...theres only 3 or 4 possible star prospects in the whole system!!!
Lumping the past failures onto these guys cuz they are in charge now should not happen. Thats why I made the bandwagon comment, you're jumping ship while the ship is at the lowest, though there's a crew in place that's laying a plan out how to raise it again.


One correction, nad69dan, this isn't a "totally different" regime. Nutting has been a primary

That said, there are some signs that things are different now and things may be changing, which is very exciting. But they have not PROVEN anything. The Pirates are still a team that loses far more games than they win.

There are SIGNS things are turning around but nothing is PROVEN til they win.



Yes, we all know Nutting was part of the ownership prior...BUT, Nutting wasnt making the baseball decisions and didnt have much say in the running of the club until last season...McClatchy was the one running it...


Nutting got him to step down, fired Littlefield and then fired Tracy and brought in Coonley and Huntington and Russell and spent money to build a new academy in Latin America...



I've read/hear, etc. that Nutting had much more control than was publicized for years, and McClatchy, by the end, had some control but was mainly a talking head. Either way, Nutting was PART of the group that did all of that, so it's not fair to absolve him of all involvement with the bad.

I like some of the moves he's made, especially the Latin American academy. Like I said earlier, those are SIGNS that things could go in the right direction and wins could come. BUt until the wins do, in fact, come, nothing has been "proven."


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Pirates still are not competitive enough for fans
PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 3:09 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 7:01 pm
Posts: 7194
Elmer wrote:
I've read/hear, etc. that Nutting had much more control than was publicized for years, and McClatchy, by the end, had some control but was mainly a talking head. Either way, Nutting was PART of the group that did all of that, so it's not fair to absolve him of all involvement with the bad.

I like some of the moves he's made, especially the Latin American academy. Like I said earlier, those are SIGNS that things could go in the right direction and wins could come. BUt until the wins do, in fact, come, nothing has been "proven."


Do you have any proof of this Elmer?

Its sounding like other threads where you give your opinion but have not backed it up

If Nutting was in charge behind the scenes so long and making a big profit like he was, why would he change? Why would he let his manager go and his GM and have McClatchy step down and replace him with an executive from the MLB front office? Why would he invest money in Latin America? Why didn't he draft another projected #3 starter in the draft? Why would he change his routine?

_________________
I say keep the $50 and ban him anyway...

For those jumping ship, we'll keep the bandwagon warm for you...


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Pirates still are not competitive enough for fans
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:47 am 
nad69dan wrote:
Elmer wrote:
I've read/hear, etc. that Nutting had much more control than was publicized for years, and McClatchy, by the end, had some control but was mainly a talking head. Either way, Nutting was PART of the group that did all of that, so it's not fair to absolve him of all involvement with the bad.

I like some of the moves he's made, especially the Latin American academy. Like I said earlier, those are SIGNS that things could go in the right direction and wins could come. BUt until the wins do, in fact, come, nothing has been "proven."


Do you have any proof of this Elmer?

Its sounding like other threads where you give your opinion but have not backed it up

If Nutting was in charge behind the scenes so long and making a big profit like he was, why would he change? Why would he let his manager go and his GM and have McClatchy step down and replace him with an executive from the MLB front office? Why would he invest money in Latin America? Why didn't he draft another projected #3 starter in the draft? Why would he change his routine?


No, I don't have proof. I'm just going off of what I've heard people like John Perrotto and even some of the ESPN guys say. How much of a say he had is debatable, I'm not saying he was "100%" in charge, but he certainly had some say. Any one who is investing millions and millions and millions -- owning a bigger percentage of any company as time goes on -- that person is going to want (and deserves) more say in operations.

As I've said many, many times, I love the Latin America academy. I love the draft picks. These are things that make it look like more wins could come. But since the goal of playing baseball is to win, you can't call anything "proof" until the wins come.


Top
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 69 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC - 4 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot] and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group  
Design By Poker Bandits