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 Post subject: Re: Pirates still are not competitive enough for fans
PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 8:33 am 
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bullishhitter wrote:
sisyphus

Sorry but the Steelers have never lost as many years in a row as the Pirates have. Early 1900s? You may be right but I dont think baseball was very popular at that time. What are your wager terms and amounts?

Sorry, but the Pirates have never lost as BADLY as the Steelers have. The Pirates have posted a .439 win percentage over the last 15 years. The Steelers franchise win percentage didn't reach .439 until 1977. The worst win percentage the Pirates have put up in the past 15 years was .383 in 2001. The Steelers have put up win percentages lower than that in almost 1/3 of their seasons, including twice in the last eight years. When it comes to setting the standard for ineptitude for Pittsburgh sports, the Steelers remain unchallenged.

You don't think that baseball was very popular in the 1900's? Baseball was the ONLY professional sport that existed, and the Pirates were usually in the top half of the league in attendance. They took four pennants and finished second another four times in 10 years.

There's no point in talking much about the wager until the Steelers put 10 or so losing seasons in a row. That will give us about five years to work out the details, lol.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates still are not competitive enough for fans
PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 10:47 am 
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And further, I remember those '80's Steeler teams. One 6-10 year, and TRS was not selling out. I remember the Rooney's buying up tickets to avoid NFL blackout rules.

So, please, don't tell me how loyal the Steelers fans are. They are just as fickle as Pirates fans, and probably moreso.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates still are not competitive enough for fans
PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:51 am 
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ZelieMike wrote:
And further, I remember those '80's Steeler teams. One 6-10 year, and TRS was not selling out. I remember the Rooney's buying up tickets to avoid NFL blackout rules.

So, please, don't tell me how loyal the Steelers fans are. They are just as fickle as Pirates fans, and probably moreso.

ZM

No way. The current Steelers waiting list for season tickets started all the way back in 1972. There was a game back in 1987 that was attended by only 34,627, but it was played by replacement players during a strike, and it was sold out.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates still are not competitive enough for fans
PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 1:01 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
And further, I remember those '80's Steeler teams. One 6-10 year, and TRS was not selling out. I remember the Rooney's buying up tickets to avoid NFL blackout rules.

So, please, don't tell me how loyal the Steelers fans are. They are just as fickle as Pirates fans, and probably moreso.

ZM



That isn't what I am saying.

The point I am trying to illustrate is that, even though the Steelers are #1 in this town, Pittsburgh is a good sports town. The fans genuinely care about all 3 professional teams. The reason the Pirates attendance has sunk is because the Pirates stink. People are fed up. I would probably go to 10 games per year if they put a decent product on the field, but they haven't in a very long time. I still go to a couple every year, mainly to see the other team or the tickets are free.

It is not the economy, either. I checked ESPN.com and 25 teams are averaging over 24,000 per game this year, and roughly half the teams are over the 30,000 mark. The economy is bad everywhere and Major League Baseball is still on pace to top 76 million fans this year. And to add a point that has been mentioned, the economy hasn't stopped the Pens from something like 60-straight sellouts at roughly $35-$200/ticket.

As far as the argument about the Steelers stinking until the 1970's, I don't see how that is relevant to the Pirates of today. The Steelers stunk (but not enough to break the record for consecutive losing seasons by a North American pro team--the Pirates have that in reach). Then, they built a dynasty and never even really had to blow it up and start from scratch again over the next 3 decades. A couple losing seasons here and there will happen. Every sports franchise has losing seasons from time to time. The fans understand that it happens. In the 1986, the Steelers weren't on year number 7 of their third 5 year rebuilding plan of the last 12 years. They had a 6-10 season that was only a few years removed from a decent playoff run in 1984. They weren't in their umpteenth straight losing season.


Comparing the Pirates to other Pittsburgh teams makes them look worse. The 1998-2000 Steelers missed the playoffs, but they fixed the issues the right way and went 13-3 in 2001. The Penguins had an incredible ten year run come to an end in 2001. What did they do? They had a quick fire sale, stunk for a few years and got high draft picks. They used those picks for a few guys named Crosby, Fleury, Malkin and Staal, who along with a few good signings became an awesome team very fast.

In that time the Pirates stunk and drafted high. Who were the stars of those drafts? Simple, look at the Brewers and Rays rosters, those are all the star players the Pirates missed out on while drafting Brian Bullington. With ESPN, the internet and so many other resources today, fans are more educated than ever, and they know BS when they see it. And they have given the Pirates enough chances.

Now, I will give the Bucs one thing. This new regime seems like they are better than the last one. I don't see any Aramis Ramirez or Matt Morris type trades coming from them, plus they seem like they want to improve the farm system. But, most of this city's fans are going to want to see "W's" before they really believe.

People say the Pirates are showing signs this year, but I am not sure I believe that. 41-45 (or whatever it is) may be a slight improvement from years past but...
*It seems like more teams are hovering in the .500 realm this year. Competitive balance is good in the game.
*When they do approach .500 they choke, every time
*Their fundamentals still stink. They don't look like MLB players a lot of nights.
*Most important....it is still a losing record!

When real results are shown, the fans will come back.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates still are not competitive enough for fans
PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 1:15 pm 
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Fans have stuck it out this long and now there comes a mark like most losing seasons in a row, people are jumping ship, right when the owner hired very savy baseball people to run the organization and so far have done a remarkable job with the time and resources available to them...

Well jump the ship...but just remember you're gonna be riding the bandwagon when they come around again...

Dont go to the games, its more tickets for me!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates still are not competitive enough for fans
PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 1:55 pm 
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sisyphus wrote:
No way. The current Steelers waiting list for season tickets started all the way back in 1972. There was a game back in 1987 that was attended by only 34,627, but it was played by replacement players during a strike, and it was sold out.


Not the same thing.

I've been there, seen the empty seats. When the Steel lose, the fans stop coming in SRO, sellout numbers. That has nothing to do with a waiting list established in 1972. They have a long way to go through that list before it is gone. Further, the Steelers always have to set aside a few thousand seats for the other team and their locals.

In the 80's the Rooneys were buying those back Sunday mornings to avoid NFL blackouts for a couple of games.

But, that is only to show that when you win, you get the fans. As will the Pirates when they win again.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates still are not competitive enough for fans
PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 5:10 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
No way. The current Steelers waiting list for season tickets started all the way back in 1972. There was a game back in 1987 that was attended by only 34,627, but it was played by replacement players during a strike, and it was sold out.


Not the same thing.

I've been there, seen the empty seats. When the Steel lose, the fans stop coming in SRO, sellout numbers. That has nothing to do with a waiting list established in 1972. They have a long way to go through that list before it is gone. Further, the Steelers always have to set aside a few thousand seats for the other team and their locals.

In the 80's the Rooneys were buying those back Sunday mornings to avoid NFL blackouts for a couple of games.


I don't remember that at all. I think your memory is faulty, especially because those games didn't get televised if they sold out on Sunday morning. They had to sell out either 24 or 48 hours in advance. You have any evidence besides your memory?

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates still are not competitive enough for fans
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:23 am 
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ZelieMike wrote:
And further, I remember those '80's Steeler teams. One 6-10 year, and TRS was not selling out. I remember the Rooney's buying up tickets to avoid NFL blackout rules.

So, please, don't tell me how loyal the Steelers fans are. They are just as fickle as Pirates fans, and probably moreso.

ZM

That is total BS
They have been sold out since the early 70s. The stadium has not been filled in late season games when they were losing but the games were still sold out. Name one time the Rooney bought tickets to avoid a TV blackout.
If the Steelers were to lose for as long as the Pirates have, the waiting list and sellout streak would come to an end. Its not going to happen.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates still are not competitive enough for fans
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:42 am 
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Nope, unless you can search old Pittsburgh Press articles.

The NFL blackout rule has changed over the years. The Saints used to buy out Sunday AM,late Saturday night all the time when I lived there in the early '80's.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates still are not competitive enough for fans
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:54 am 
sisyphus wrote:
ZelieMike wrote:
And further, I remember those '80's Steeler teams. One 6-10 year, and TRS was not selling out. I remember the Rooney's buying up tickets to avoid NFL blackout rules.

So, please, don't tell me how loyal the Steelers fans are. They are just as fickle as Pirates fans, and probably moreso.

ZM

No way. The current Steelers waiting list for season tickets started all the way back in 1972. There was a game back in 1987 that was attended by only 34,627, but it was played by replacement players during a strike, and it was sold out.


A couple observations
- Steeler fans are fickle, there's just more of them so it doesn't have as much of an impact.
- The bad years in the 80s, TRS was not full but it WAS a sellout. The Rooneys didn't have to buy tickets to avoid blackouts then.
- They Rooneys DID have to buy tickets to avoid blackouts in the early 70s. I think even in 74.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates still are not competitive enough for fans
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:59 am 
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ZelieMike wrote:
[
In the 80's the Rooneys were buying those back Sunday mornings to avoid NFL blackouts for a couple of games.

ZM

Wrong

Blackout policies
Since 1973, the NFL has maintained a blackout policy that states that a home game cannot be televised locally if it is not sold out within 72 hours prior to its start time. Prior to 1973, all games were blacked out in their city of origin regardless of whether they were sold out. This policy, dating back to the NFL's emerging years on television, resulted in home-city blackouts that even extended to championship games.

Although that policy was successfully defended in court numerous times, Congress passed legislation requiring the NFL to impose the 72-hour deadline.The league will sometimes extend this deadline to 48 hours if there are only a few thousand tickets left unsold.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates still are not competitive enough for fans
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:05 pm 
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sisyphus wrote:
ZelieMike wrote:
And further, I remember those '80's Steeler teams. One 6-10 year, and TRS was not selling out. I remember the Rooney's buying up tickets to avoid NFL blackout rules.

So, please, don't tell me how loyal the Steelers fans are. They are just as fickle as Pirates fans, and probably moreso.

ZM

No way. The current Steelers waiting list for season tickets started all the way back in 1972. There was a game back in 1987 that was attended by only 34,627, but it was played by replacement players during a strike, and it was sold out.


:lol:

My family was on the list at one point and we only had to wait 2 seasons before tickets opened up.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates still are not competitive enough for fans
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 3:39 pm 
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nad69dan wrote:
Fans have stuck it out this long and now there comes a mark like most losing seasons in a row, people are jumping ship, right when the owner hired very savy baseball people to run the organization and so far have done a remarkable job with the time and resources available to them...

Well jump the ship...but just remember you're gonna be riding the bandwagon when they come around again...

Dont go to the games, its more tickets for me!!!



It isn't just the mark (which is, in and of itself completely unacceptable), it is a total lack of progress. Now that Tampa and Milwaukee are as good as they are, it seems like every team in baseball has had a legitimate pennant race in the last decade or so. The Pirates have nothing.-- little real Major League Talent and no farm system. The Pirates spent the last several years collecting revenue-sharing checks and pocketing them. Making no strides whatsoever to improve the team. They now basically have no shot at winning for a while. Even though this new regime seems better than the last one, I have to wonder about the bone-headed decisions John Russell makes and wonder if there really is any progress.

There is a difference between a fair weather fan and a fan who knows he is being cheated by the team he has supported his whole life. A Mariners fan who gives up on his team this year is a fair weather fan. They showed promise last year, made some real additions to the team and it didn't work. They'll dust off and try again next year. If the Bucs a 75th straight losing season, pocketing revenue-sharing and still no prospects for the future, will you still call the people who turn their back fair weather? At what point do you realize you are being ripped-off?

Hey, I still go to a couple every year. I like baseball and it is something to do. But I won't make any real commitment until they do. I have given them enough. Some people, like BH, may call me an enabler for going to those two games. And that is fine. But I would like to go to a dozen or so, but the Pirates have used all my goodwill.

The people of Pittsburgh have finally had enough of the crap the Nuttings have been shoveling at them. The walk-out was the first warning, the dropping attendance is another.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates still are not competitive enough for fans
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 4:36 pm 
Welfare_Fraud wrote:
nad69dan wrote:
Fans have stuck it out this long and now there comes a mark like most losing seasons in a row, people are jumping ship, right when the owner hired very savy baseball people to run the organization and so far have done a remarkable job with the time and resources available to them...

Well jump the ship...but just remember you're gonna be riding the bandwagon when they come around again...

Dont go to the games, its more tickets for me!!!



It isn't just the mark (which is, in and of itself completely unacceptable), it is a total lack of progress. Now that Tampa and Milwaukee are as good as they are, it seems like every team in baseball has had a legitimate pennant race in the last decade or so. The Pirates have nothing.-- little real Major League Talent and no farm system. The Pirates spent the last several years collecting revenue-sharing checks and pocketing them. Making no strides whatsoever to improve the team. They now basically have no shot at winning for a while. Even though this new regime seems better than the last one, I have to wonder about the bone-headed decisions John Russell makes and wonder if there really is any progress.

There is a difference between a fair weather fan and a fan who knows he is being cheated by the team he has supported his whole life. A Mariners fan who gives up on his team this year is a fair weather fan. They showed promise last year, made some real additions to the team and it didn't work. They'll dust off and try again next year. If the Bucs a 75th straight losing season, pocketing revenue-sharing and still no prospects for the future, will you still call the people who turn their back fair weather? At what point do you realize you are being ripped-off?

Hey, I still go to a couple every year. I like baseball and it is something to do. But I won't make any real commitment until they do. I have given them enough. Some people, like BH, may call me an enabler for going to those two games. And that is fine. But I would like to go to a dozen or so, but the Pirates have used all my goodwill.

The people of Pittsburgh have finally had enough of the crap the Nuttings have been shoveling at them. The walk-out was the first warning, the dropping attendance is another.


Great post, Welfare.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates still are not competitive enough for fans
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 4:38 pm 
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Welfare_Fraud

I'll give you credit for scaling back. Thats what I did a few years ago and then I just stopped going period. People keep talking about new management? The Nuttings have been the largest owner of the Pirates since 96 and money in their pockets(paying debt..call it what you want)is the reason the team has sucked and is in the pathetic condition from a win loss record with a bleak future with little to no prospects for the future.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates still are not competitive enough for fans
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 9:45 am 
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Welfare_Fraud wrote:
nad69dan wrote:
Fans have stuck it out this long and now there comes a mark like most losing seasons in a row, people are jumping ship, right when the owner hired very savy baseball people to run the organization and so far have done a remarkable job with the time and resources available to them...

Well jump the ship...but just remember you're gonna be riding the bandwagon when they come around again...

Dont go to the games, its more tickets for me!!!



It isn't just the mark (which is, in and of itself completely unacceptable), it is a total lack of progress. Now that Tampa and Milwaukee are as good as they are, it seems like every team in baseball has had a legitimate pennant race in the last decade or so. The Pirates have nothing.-- little real Major League Talent and no farm system. The Pirates spent the last several years collecting revenue-sharing checks and pocketing them. Making no strides whatsoever to improve the team. They now basically have no shot at winning for a while. Even though this new regime seems better than the last one, I have to wonder about the bone-headed decisions John Russell makes and wonder if there really is any progress.

There is a difference between a fair weather fan and a fan who knows he is being cheated by the team he has supported his whole life. A Mariners fan who gives up on his team this year is a fair weather fan. They showed promise last year, made some real additions to the team and it didn't work. They'll dust off and try again next year. If the Bucs a 75th straight losing season, pocketing revenue-sharing and still no prospects for the future, will you still call the people who turn their back fair weather? At what point do you realize you are being ripped-off?

Hey, I still go to a couple every year. I like baseball and it is something to do. But I won't make any real commitment until they do. I have given them enough. Some people, like BH, may call me an enabler for going to those two games. And that is fine. But I would like to go to a dozen or so, but the Pirates have used all my goodwill.

The people of Pittsburgh have finally had enough of the crap the Nuttings have been shoveling at them. The walk-out was the first warning, the dropping attendance is another.


I understand your point, but you need to understand that this regime is totally different and have proved that with every move they have made so far this season, and in the draft. These guys in the front office are legit. Its too bad they took over a team with the Major League team thin on talent, and the minors in a wreck...theres only 3 or 4 possible star prospects in the whole system!!!
Lumping the past failures onto these guys cuz they are in charge now should not happen. Thats why I made the bandwagon comment, you're jumping ship while the ship is at the lowest, though there's a crew in place that's laying a plan out how to raise it again.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates still are not competitive enough for fans
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 10:16 am 
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nad69dan wrote:
you need to understand that this regime is totally different and have proved that with every move they have made so far this season, and in the draft. These guys in the front office are legit. Its too bad they took over a team with the Major League team thin on talent, and the minors in a wreck...theres only 3 or 4 possible star prospects in the whole system!!!
Lumping the past failures onto these guys cuz they are in charge now should not happen.


Whoa...follow the money. The Nutting family money has been in control since 96. The Prez, GM & Manager may have changed but shtt still flows downhill. Nothing has been "proved". Time will tell. The past is still the same as the present when it comes to the money and that has and still does have the most influence as to how this business operates.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates still are not competitive enough for fans
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:29 pm 
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Having this conversation with you BH is pointless, its been discussed here before, and numerous others have brought up about Nutting's involvement in the team and their control status...

So I'm gonna end something I knew better to get involved in with you...

I just hope you're good a hitchhiking your way on the bandwagon when Nutting is still in charge and the team is winning...

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I say keep the $50 and ban him anyway...

For those jumping ship, we'll keep the bandwagon warm for you...


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates still are not competitive enough for fans
PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:28 am 
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What I find very interesting is that the argument that has gone on for the better part of this year is starting to lose credibility.

Argument 1: The Pirates want to keep salaries low and won't pay anybody.

Reality: The Pirates tried to lock down core players for extended years and already have Bay and Wilson signed to very nice deals. Additionally, the Pirates are not interested in "salary dumping," according to NH the financials are not a concern. On that note, if this ballclub was 50-40 and pressing towards a playoff spot, I believe NH and Nutting would be looking for a guy like Sabathia or maybe Sabathia himself.

Argument 2: The Pirates aren't trying to win now.

Reality: Talks of keeping Bay and Wilson unless they are "blown out of the water" by a deal indicates that the Pirates aren't interested in destroying the nucleus of this team quite yet.

Argument 3: We should have done more during the offseason to aquire FA help.

Reality: You would be a great GM if you knew your top 2 starters would virtualy bail out on you for the season, but NH did get Dumatrait who I believe will thrive for the Bucs. In looking over the 2007 FA list, I see not one player that would have helped(aside from the obvious like AROD).

Argument 4: NH and Nutting aren't spending money and trying to make us win now.

Reality: If you don't like how NH operates, I am suprised you didn't have a coronary during the Cam Bonifay then David Littlefield eras. Littlefield spent the money on lousy free agents just as some of you had requested, and look where it lead us, we spent so much money on FA's that we had to trade away a star 3B for "financial reasons." Spending money isn't always the answer.

Argument 5: Pirates are still not competitive enough for fans

Reality: We are 1 year removed from probably the worst GM we've had, that left us with a minor leagues devoid of talent, 1st round picks all floundering, some talent on the MLB club but not enough. I like NH and I think he is outstanding, but he is not a miracle worker. For all of you fans that are bailing on the Bucs this year, I can only wonder if you actually know what is really going on. If you thought we were going to win right away maybe you are delusional or overly optimistic. I mean, I am optimistic, but I know that this could be a process that may take 2-3 years.

This is what I believe has been the process;
1. Bring in the right kind of coaching and management to EFFECTIVELY evaluate and develop talent
2. Try to quickly get an idea of what is in house already(maybe some players were being developed poorly)
3. Move players into better positions, to higher or lower minor league teams, filter out the talent at the MLB level
4. Spend money on core players that we want around so that we can reap the rewards of their development
5. Restock the minors through the draft and possible deals, without destroying the team(total rebuild mode)

This is what I believe will happen in the future:
1. The minor leagues will be better stocked, better talent
2. The talent we have in the minors now will be introduced to the MLB level to mix with the core set of guys
3. We will begin to win more consistantly
4. The team will be in a better position (with prospects and finances) to add major talent at the deadline for a playoff push.
5. With a quality evaluation system and better deveolpment, the Pirates should be able to sustain success for longer periods of time.

Bailing on the Pirates now is just a waste. How would you feel if I just hired you, put you on a project that was failing and then fired you 2 weeks in because the project was still failing. Turning around a team that is in this bad of shape will take time. Your arguments really hold no water.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates still are not competitive enough for fans
PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:33 am 
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P13, very good post. Well articulated.


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