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 Post subject: Re: Pirate ship taking on water
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:31 pm 
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Elmer wrote:

I would have liked to see the team sign more minor league free agents to add depth to the AAA roster/rotation, or a lower-tier major league free agent. I'm not talking big ticket signings or even advocating signing guys to be in the starting 5, just rotation depth. We have none.


Oh, you mean guys like Dumatrait, Taubenheim, Davis, and Barthmeier?

How many minor league starting pitchers did you want in your AAA rotation, Elmer? I don't recall you posting this past off season that we need to get rid of JVB or Bullington, so there are two spots. Munoz had a solid year and probably did deserve the third (unfortunately, he took a step back this year). Of those four that he did acquire, one has panned out (Dumatrait) and another (Barthmeier) looks exceptionally promising. The other two have been in the AAA rotation, which, it seems, is what you are advocating.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirate ship taking on water
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:34 pm 
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BBF wrote:
Elmer wrote:

I would have liked to see the team sign more minor league free agents to add depth to the AAA roster/rotation, or a lower-tier major league free agent. I'm not talking big ticket signings or even advocating signing guys to be in the starting 5, just rotation depth. We have none.


Oh, you mean guys like Dumatrait, Taubenheim, Davis, and Barthmeier?

How many minor league starting pitchers did you want in your AAA rotation, Elmer? I don't recall you posting this past off season that we need to get rid of JVB or Bullington, so there are two spots. Munoz had a solid year and probably did deserve the third (unfortunately, he took a step back this year). Of those four that he did acquire, one has panned out (Dumatrait) and another (Barthmeier) looks exceptionally promising. The other two have been in the AAA rotation, which, it seems, is what you are advocating.


I was about to say the same thing, but you stole my thunder. Nice post BBF.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirate ship taking on water
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:36 pm 
BBF wrote:
Elmer wrote:

I would have liked to see the team sign more minor league free agents to add depth to the AAA roster/rotation, or a lower-tier major league free agent. I'm not talking big ticket signings or even advocating signing guys to be in the starting 5, just rotation depth. We have none.


Oh, you mean guys like Dumatrait, Taubenheim, Davis, and Barthmeier?

How many minor league starting pitchers did you want in your AAA rotation, Elmer? I don't recall you posting this past off season that we need to get rid of JVB or Bullington, so there are two spots. Munoz had a solid year and probably did deserve the third (unfortunately, he took a step back this year). Of those four that he did acquire, one has panned out (Dumatrait) and another (Barthmeier) looks exceptionally promising. The other two have been in the AAA rotation, which, it seems, is what you are advocating.


Dumatrait was a great signing. Given how the rest of the crew has performed, and now with injuries setting it, I think scouring the waiver wire for bodies as this year unfolded is a reasonable wish.

There's certainly some things to praise NH for, but to never criticize a single thing he does or doesn't do is ridiculous.

We are looking at a rotation of Gorzo/Maholm/Duke/JVB/Bullington. Hoping your team's GM can find some additional bodies is a pretty reasonable post.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirate ship taking on water
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:47 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
Elmer wrote:
I was afraid of something like this. Management did not do the team any favors by getting virtually no sp depth heading into this season.

Our already-bad rotation is even worse now with no decent options ready to fill in.

Who would you say they should have gotten, and what should they have given up to get him?


I would have liked to see the team sign more minor league free agents to add depth to the AAA roster/rotation, or a lower-tier major league free agent. I'm not talking big ticket signings or even advocating signing guys to be in the starting 5, just rotation depth. We have none.

They did acquire a bunch of minor league pitchers to add depth to the AAA roster.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirate ship taking on water
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:49 pm 
sisyphus wrote:
They did acquire a bunch of minor league pitchers to add depth to the AAA roster.


So the major league rotation and AAA rotation are perfect as they currently stand? No need to look to upgrade?


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 Post subject: Re: Pirate ship taking on water
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:54 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
They did acquire a bunch of minor league pitchers to add depth to the AAA roster.


So the major league rotation and AAA rotation are perfect as they currently stand? No need to look to upgrade?


And you know that they didn't look to upgrade how? Looking to upgrade and being able to upgrade are two different things, and there may be no upgrades available. I know I certainly haven't heard of any pitchers DFA'd that I would consider an upgrade, but perhaps you spend more time scouring the waiver wires than I do. I'd love to hear those names.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirate ship taking on water
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:56 pm 
BBF wrote:
Elmer wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
They did acquire a bunch of minor league pitchers to add depth to the AAA roster.


So the major league rotation and AAA rotation are perfect as they currently stand? No need to look to upgrade?


And you know that they didn't look to upgrade how? Looking to upgrade and being able to upgrade are two different things, and there may be no upgrades available. I know I certainly haven't heard of any pitchers DFA'd that I would consider an upgrade, but perhaps you spend more time scouring the waiver wires than I do. I'd love to hear those names.


I'm not going to spend my afternoon looking at the names of minor league pitchers so you and sisy can rip whatever I post. I've explained this before.

I'm making a general comment that I'd like to see this team upgrade some of its starting pitching, THAT'S A REASONABLE POST. You guys have shown me in the past that WHATEVER I say will be criticized. Certainly your right, but I'm don't play that game with you two.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirate ship taking on water
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:03 pm 
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Quote:
I'm not going to spend my afternoon looking at the names of minor league pitchers so you and sisy can rip whatever I post. I've explained this before.

I'm making a general comment that I'd like to see this team upgrade some of its starting pitching, THAT'S A REASONABLE POST. You guys have shown me in the past that WHATEVER I say will be criticized. Certainly your right, but I'm don't play that game with you two.


I'm here huckleberry... :lol: Sorry Elmer I couldn't resist, I had a "Tombstone" moment.

Elmer there definitely isn't a reason to argue about this all day. NH took every SP that was available and met the new Pirates organizational requirements during the offseason. And now, there is just simply nobody out there to go and get. Unless Matt Morris isn't busy. We are probably going to have to ride this one out with what we got, unless a trade of Bay or Nady nets us a MLB ready starter, which might be unlikely.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirate ship taking on water
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:05 pm 
Piratefan13 wrote:
Quote:
I'm not going to spend my afternoon looking at the names of minor league pitchers so you and sisy can rip whatever I post. I've explained this before.

I'm making a general comment that I'd like to see this team upgrade some of its starting pitching, THAT'S A REASONABLE POST. You guys have shown me in the past that WHATEVER I say will be criticized. Certainly your right, but I'm don't play that game with you two.


I'm here huckleberry... :lol: Sorry Elmer I couldn't resist, I had a "Tombstone" moment.

Elmer there definitely isn't a reason to argue about this all day. NH took every SP that was available and met the new Pirates organizational requirements during the offseason. And now, there is just simply nobody out there to go and get. Unless Matt Morris isn't busy. We are probably going to have to ride this one out with what we got, unless a trade of Bay or Nady nets us a MLB ready starter, which might be unlikely.


Ha, no worries on the Tombstone moment. I got a chuckle.

I'm not sure NH took every SP option that was available, but he took some chances (including some ones that worked out) in the offseason. I'm more concerned with during this season. I'm not accusing NH of ruining the team or anything, but I do think he could have been a bit more aggressive.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirate ship taking on water
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:09 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
I'm not going to spend my afternoon looking at the names of minor league pitchers so you and sisy can rip whatever I post. I've explained this before.

Of course you're not, as it is your position that Huntingdon should have a crystal ball and a magic wand that he uses to convince Walt Jocketty to give us Edinson Volquez for a package of Nyjer Morgan, JVB and Bullington.
Quote:
I'm making a general comment that I'd like to see this team upgrade some of its starting pitching,

No you aren't, you're criticizing Huntingdon for his failure to work miracles. Just about everybody here has said that they'd like to see the rotation upgraded. Most of us realize that it's going to be tough to do that without trading a bunch of guys that you would like to be called untouchables, though.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirate ship taking on water
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:10 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
I'm not sure NH took every SP option that was available, but he took some chances (including some ones that worked out) in the offseason. I'm more concerned with during this season. I'm not accusing NH of ruining the team or anything, but I do think he could have been a bit more aggressive.



How can you know he didn't take every SP option that was available? That's the whole problem here Elmer. If you want to criticize NH for not doing something, YOU HAVE TO PROVIDE SOME SUGGESTION OF WHAT HE COULD HAVE DONE. Show me where he lacked aggressiveness. Seriously, show me.

And also, since we seemed to have passed over this point, where exactly does Huntington put all of these pitchers that were available over the waiver wire that no one besides Elmer knows about? Again, I don't recall you asking that we dump any of our guys at AAA, so if that rotation was full, and our big league rotation was full, I'd be interested to hear where they should be pitching (assuming they existed).


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 Post subject: Re: Pirate ship taking on water
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:11 pm 
sisyphus wrote:
Of course you're not, as it is your position that Huntingdon should have a crystal ball and a magic wand that he uses to convince Walt Jocketty to give us Edinson Volquez for a package of Nyjer Morgan, JVB and Bullington.[\quote]

I said nothing of the sort.

Quote:
No you aren't, you're criticizing Huntingdon for his failure to work miracles.


I don't want miracles. I just don't want a rotation of JVB, Bullington, injured Snell, Injured Gorzo, Maholm and Duke.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirate ship taking on water
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:12 pm 
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To tell you the truth Elmer, I think NH had some confidence in the starting 5 that we have. And I am sure that all of us had confidence in 4 of the 5 starters(Matt Morris the lone weakness), at least for them to compete. It sucks because Maholm and Duke have improved, and Dumatrait come out of nowhere, but Gorzo and Snell regressed. How frustrating that may be for the GM. He did get guys, but how many can you really get? There wouldn/t be enough playing time for them all at AAA. We've yet to see how Barthmeier will work out, and by golly we have to get something... anything from Bullington. DL predicted him to be a 3rd starter, damn if he was even wrong on that. DL and numerous others destroyed this team and its going to take NH a few seasons to right the ship(hah another pirate ship reference, 2 in one day).


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 Post subject: Re: Pirate ship taking on water
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:13 pm 
BBF wrote:
Elmer wrote:
I'm not sure NH took every SP option that was available, but he took some chances (including some ones that worked out) in the offseason. I'm more concerned with during this season. I'm not accusing NH of ruining the team or anything, but I do think he could have been a bit more aggressive.



How can you know he didn't take every SP option that was available? That's the whole problem here Elmer. If you want to criticize NH for not doing something, YOU HAVE TO PROVIDE SOME SUGGESTION OF WHAT HE COULD HAVE DONE. Show me where he lacked aggressiveness. Seriously, show me.

And also, since we seemed to have passed over this point, where exactly does Huntington put all of these pitchers that were available over the waiver wire that no one besides Elmer knows about? Again, I don't recall you asking that we dump any of our guys at AAA, so if that rotation was full, and our big league rotation was full, I'd be interested to hear where they should be pitching (assuming they existed).


You wouldn't be OK with dumping Bullington? And I think you, yourself, advocated moving JVB to the bullpen.

If you find a pitcher worth acquiring, go for it I say. Adjust your current roster accordingly.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirate ship taking on water
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:15 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
Of course you're not, as it is your position that Huntingdon should have a crystal ball and a magic wand that he uses to convince Walt Jocketty to give us Edinson Volquez for a package of Nyjer Morgan, JVB and Bullington.[\quote]

I said nothing of the sort.

Quote:
No you aren't, you're criticizing Huntingdon for his failure to work miracles.


I don't want miracles. I just don't want a rotation of JVB, Bullington, injured Snell, Injured Gorzo, Maholm and Duke.

Who does? Yet you consistently fail to point out any alternatives.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirate ship taking on water
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:18 pm 
Piratefan13 wrote:
To tell you the truth Elmer, I think NH had some confidence in the starting 5 that we have. And I am sure that all of us had confidence in 4 of the 5 starters(Matt Morris the lone weakness), at least for them to compete. It sucks because Maholm and Duke have improved, and Dumatrait come out of nowhere, but Gorzo and Snell regressed. How frustrating that may be for the GM. He did get guys, but how many can you really get? There wouldn/t be enough playing time for them all at AAA. We've yet to see how Barthmeier will work out, and by golly we have to get something... anything from Bullington. DL predicted him to be a 3rd starter, damn if he was even wrong on that. DL and numerous others destroyed this team and its going to take NH a few seasons to right the ship(hah another pirate ship reference, 2 in one day).


I agree with much of what you say, Piratefan13. DL ruined this team. No argument there. NH may very well "right the ship" (though he or any GM will need some $$ from ownership). NH has made some good moves to suggest that he may very well, indeed, do that.

That doesn't mean he's above criticism though. That's my biggest problem with this board. The cheerleading rather than objective observation. I think a true fan praises his team where it deserves it and criticizes it where it deserves it.

Praising everything a team does isn't being a fan; its' being an apologist.

NH has made some good moves but he's not perfect. For example, if he had full confidence in the starting 5 but they are struggling as a whole, isn't that a mistake?

Why am I not allowed to criticize him?


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 Post subject: Re: Pirate ship taking on water
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:26 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
You wouldn't be OK with dumping Bullington? And I think you, yourself, advocated moving JVB to the bullpen.

If you find a pitcher worth acquiring, go for it I say. Adjust your current roster accordingly.


I'll agree with you 100% if you can show that there was a pitcher worth acquiring that we didn't acquire. You've yet to do so.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirate ship taking on water
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:28 pm 
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You can criticize all you want but keep in mind that he was given the keys to a Pinto, and you want him to make it a HotRod in a year. Its going to take some time, for me, I am giving him a 1 year grace period unless he trades Bay for Hernandez, Bruback, and Hill then its on like Donky Kong.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirate ship taking on water
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:55 pm 
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I hear that Jimmy Anderson is finishing a stint (or calzone?) on the Italian Pizza Circuit.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirate ship taking on water
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 3:31 pm 
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BBF wrote:
I'll agree with you 100% if you can show that there was a pitcher worth acquiring that we didn't acquire. You've yet to do so.


You act like there is some transcript where the actions of each GM, along with the potential moves that were available to him at various times, is documented. There is no such thing, not even close.

NH had reason to believe that Snell and Gorzo would continue to pitch like they did last year. Also he added depth by acquiring Dumatrait and Barthmeier.

If I'm going to single out any one thing, I would fault him most for not getting a backup shortstop.


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