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 Post subject: Re: bay and nady
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:22 am 
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Substitute2 wrote:
For the Pirates he will not be worthit in 2010. And let's wait a month and see if this streaky hitter stays hot. It would be uncharacteristic if he does, but I hope he plays out of his mind... then is traded.

Remind me of which player can play only one position, remind me who has the highest Batting average, remind me who has the most RBIs even though he has been injured (by his agressive play going after a ball), and remind me which of them has the better arm.

I guess you're right their is no competition as to the better player.

Remind me who walks more. Remind me who gets on base more. Remind me who hits more homeruns. Remind me who hits more extra-base hits. Remind me who scores more runs. Remind me who is a better baserunner. And remind me who has a better track record.

The answer is clear: Bay is the better player.

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 Post subject: Re: bay and nady
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:25 am 
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This is not even a legitimate argument. Nady has never stayed healthy or played full time for a whole season, so how you could say he is better is beyond me. I like Nady, but honestly you can't possibly think he is better than Bay. He has a better throwing arm...that's it! Over the long haul Bay will have more hits, HR's, etc. He is a better runner too now that he is back to being healthy.

Nady is a good, solid player and seems like a good clubhouse guy from all indications. Bay is an all star when he is healthy. He is an average defender with a weak arm, but Nady doesn't exactly get a gold glove over in right field either. Nady can play first base and at some point Bay may too.


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 Post subject: Re: bay and nady
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:48 am 
Argentum wrote:
Substitute2 wrote:
For the Pirates he will not be worthit in 2010. And let's wait a month and see if this streaky hitter stays hot. It would be uncharacteristic if he does, but I hope he plays out of his mind... then is traded.


Bay has always been streaky. However, unlike a lot of other hot/cold hitters, the time he spends between hot and cold is usually short.

Substitute2 wrote:
Remind me of which player can play only one position, remind me who has the highest Batting average, remind me who has the most RBIs even though he has been injured (by his agressive play going after a ball), and remind me which of them has the better arm.


Nady is a below average hitter in RF and 1B. There I said it. He had a great May. Bay is above avaerage in LF. Which would you rather have?

Oh goody, the old RBI debate. How many runs has Nady scored? I'll give you a hint, not even close to Bay. Nady has benefitted greatly from having Bay and Mclouth bat in front of him. There's your RBI's. If Bay and Nady reversed positions in the line-up, Bay would have more RBI.

Man, maybe someone can chime in hear about Bay's perceived lack of hitting in the "clutch"! Then we'd have a taboo trifecta.


I think Bay is better than Nady, but I wouldn't call Nady an average hitter. I'd give him a little more credit than that.

I would be in favor of trading either or both so long as the return is good. I don't expect them to deal both, though. I think only one will go.


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 Post subject: Re: bay and nady
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 11:20 am 
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I'd take a team full of Nady's and put them up against a team full of Bay's any day of the week. The makeup of the team is finally getting better with guys like McLouth, Doumit, and Nady out there. They bust their ass every game. I remember a game towards the end of the season in '06 where a base hit dropped right in front of Bay. He could have made an attempt at it but decided to pull up and just let it drop. The Pirates announcers (I can't remember who it was) sounded frustrated by the effort. I've never seen Nady go less than 100%. Is Bay a better baseball player? Maybe. I also know that if Bay played in a market bigger than Pittsburgh he would get swallowed whole by the media and fans for his lack of "perceived" passion.

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 Post subject: Re: bay and nady
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 12:21 pm 
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Yea, his last down time was from early June 2007 til Late May 2008.
Is that an example of his short slumps?

Mclouth batted much closer to Bay for the purpose of driving in runs.
Nady had to depend on Bay getting on which didn't happen often in April and May except for walks.

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 Post subject: Re: bay and nady
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 12:58 pm 
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Nady is good but Bay is a lot better, in every facet except throwing.

I would trade them both, but only if I got a good young outfielder in return. McCutcheon looks to be ready, but I wouldn't want to fill 2 spots from what we have available.


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 Post subject: Re: bay and nady
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 1:20 pm 
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In no way can you say either is leaps and bound better than the other. You especially can't say that Bay is far superior to Nady. Look at the last two years stats.

Nady '07 .278 20 HRs 72 RBI 23 2B 55 Runs 125 games 431 At Bats
Nady '08 .314 10 HRs 49 RBI 18 2B 36 Runs 66 games 245 At Bats

Bay '07 .247 21 HRs 84 RBI 25 2B 78 Runs 145 games 538 At Bats
Bay '08 .283 15 HRs 40 RBI 16 2B 54 Runs 74 games 269 At Bats


It looks very, very similar to me. I'd say Bay has the overwhelming advantage in his durability. As far as the production when playing Nady has the advantage. Nady also has the better arm.

It's close but if you include intangibles I'd take Nady.

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 Post subject: Re: bay and nady
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 2:22 pm 
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I'm stunned by this debate. Nady can't even stay healthy for a full year. Other teams didn't even think he was good enough to be a regular. He has proven them wrong. When healthy he is definitely an every day player. However his skill set isn't even close to Bay's. Bay had a couple bum knees the last 2 seasons and played through it. He didn't use it as an excuse. As a matter of fact nobody really knew about his knee two years ago he was so tight lipped about it. Last year the knees finally caught up to him. On offense he has more power, better OBP, way more speed on the bases. That pretty much covers it there. On defense he is better at running down balls, although I agree that he doesn't take a lot of chances. He also gets bad breaks on balls sometimes, but I've seen Nady head in the wrong direction on more than one occasion too. Obviously Nady's arm(and every little leaguer around) is better than Bay's. So to me it appears that there is no argument. I don't get it really. And I don't care what market Bay plays in, his skills will be the same. Didn't know it was a requirement to be a loud, obnoxious ass to play the game. Heck when he did speak up this off season(rightfully so) he got fried!


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 Post subject: Re: bay and nady
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 4:44 pm 
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Let's see if I can summarize...

Bay has more power, draws more walks, steals more bases, covers more ground in the outfield.
Nady has a better arm.

Yep, it's a tossup!


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 Post subject: Re: bay and nady
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 6:15 pm 
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Substitute2 wrote:
Yea, his last down time was from early June 2007 til Late May 2008.
Is that an example of his short slumps?

Mclouth batted much closer to Bay for the purpose of driving in runs.
Nady had to depend on Bay getting on which didn't happen often in April and May except for walks.

Didn't happen often? Bay had an OBP of .385 and .435 in April and May respectively. That's pretty damn often -- easily among the best in the league. Discounting Bay's walks makes little sense when you are talking specifically about Bay getting on base. The best players at getting on base typically walk a ton.

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 Post subject: Re: bay and nady
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 6:55 pm 
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I wonder who has more Strike outs. Last time I checked you can't score or even move a guy up a base if you SO. Lot's been said about Bay reducing his Ks this year -- just wondering?

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 Post subject: Re: bay and nady
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:02 pm 
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just checked Bay 60 Nady 43-- once again Bay leads

Ave. Bay .283 Nady .314
RBI Bay 40 Nady 49

AB Bay 269 Nady 245

Bay does have almost as many doubles 18-16 and is ahead in several catagories.

It is clear that Bay is far superior player???

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 Post subject: Re: bay and nady
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:27 pm 
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IA Pirate wrote:
I'd take a team full of Nady's and put them up against a team full of Bay's any day of the week.

You'd lose well over 100 games.

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 Post subject: Re: bay and nady
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:33 pm 
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sisyphus wrote:
IA Pirate wrote:
I'd take a team full of Nady's and put them up against a team full of Bay's any day of the week.

You'd lose well over 100 games.


How so? I've seen Freddy Sanchez, Freddy Sanchez, intentionally walked at least twice this season to get to Bay in a late-game situation. Jason Bay has two walk-off hits in his entire career. Amazingly they happened on back-to-back days! I don't know about you but I want someone on my team that doesn't have onions that shrink up in a tight spot.

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 Post subject: Re: bay and nady
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:48 pm 
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sisyphus wrote:
IA Pirate wrote:
I'd take a team full of Nady's and put them up against a team full of Bay's any day of the week.

You'd lose well over 100 games.


I wonder what their respective ERA's would be??!! :shock:


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 Post subject: Re: bay and nady
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:00 pm 
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IA Pirate wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
IA Pirate wrote:
I'd take a team full of Nady's and put them up against a team full of Bay's any day of the week.

You'd lose well over 100 games.


How so?

By scoring way fewer runs than the all-Bay team.

Quote:
I've seen Freddy Sanchez, Freddy Sanchez, intentionally walked at least twice this season to get to Bay in a late-game situation. Jason Bay has two walk-off hits in his entire career. Amazingly they happened on back-to-back days! I don't know about you but I want someone on my team that doesn't have onions that shrink up in a tight spot.

Jason Bay's career OPS with runners in scoring position: .920

Xavier Nady's career OPS with runners in scoring position: .745

That doesn't even consider that the All-Bays will be hitting with runners in scoring position a hell of a lot more often than the All-Nadys will.

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 Post subject: Re: bay and nady
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:01 pm 
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BBF wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
IA Pirate wrote:
I'd take a team full of Nady's and put them up against a team full of Bay's any day of the week.

You'd lose well over 100 games.


I wonder what their respective ERA's would be??!! :shock:


I dont know if Bay's arm would allow him to put anything on the ball if he was pitching...Nady's got more zip

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 Post subject: Re: bay and nady
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:11 pm 
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IA Pirate wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
IA Pirate wrote:
I'd take a team full of Nady's and put them up against a team full of Bay's any day of the week.

You'd lose well over 100 games.


How so? I've seen Freddy Sanchez, Freddy Sanchez, intentionally walked at least twice this season to get to Bay in a late-game situation. Jason Bay has two walk-off hits in his entire career. Amazingly they happened on back-to-back days! I don't know about you but I want someone on my team that doesn't have onions that shrink up in a tight spot.

There's more to baseball than the 9th inning. Your focus on late-game situations largely ignores the work that players do during the rest of the game that is more outcome-determinative than what happens in a limited number of "clutch" situations.

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 Post subject: Re: bay and nady
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:20 pm 
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Willton wrote:
There's more to baseball than the 9th inning. Your focus on late-game situations largely ignores the work that players do during the rest of the game that is more outcome-determinative than what happens in a limited number of "clutch" situations.


Like how a player performs when he comes up with runners in scoring position? Or is that just luck?

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 Post subject: Re: bay and nady
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:23 pm 
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Argentum wrote:
[Man, maybe someone can chime in hear about Bay's perceived lack of hitting in the "clutch"! Then we'd have a taboo trifecta.


IA Pirate wrote:
I don't know about you but I want someone on my team that doesn't have onions that shrink up in a tight spot.


Ask and ye shall receive, SA.


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