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 Post subject: Re: So, how long do we stay with this experiment?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 4:47 pm 
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Nady is on the DL, and gone in a few weeks. Bay is most likely gone as well. He won't be replaceing anyone in RF in that case.

And, he doesn't help you at all on the DL

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: So, how long do we stay with this experiment?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 4:49 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Nady is on the DL, and gone in a few weeks. Bay is most likely gone as well. He won't be replaceing anyone in RF in that case.

And, he doesn't help you at all on the DL

ZM


Unless both Bay and Nady are traded, you would effectively be replacing McCutchen with Chavez then, no?


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 Post subject: Re: So, how long do we stay with this experiment?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 5:33 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
I'm not making stuff up. I'm referring to the hammy he pulled while catching to start the year. When he dove to catch a foul ball. :roll:

That's what got him rolled into positional play.

And, I do not take kindly to being called a liar or a makeup artist.

You can however, refer to my failing memory or advanced adult on-set ADD, if you note it.

ZM


OK, sorry about saying you made it up but I think you are still wrong. He started last year with the club then got sent to AAA. Tore it up down there and got called back and at that point started playing multiple positions. I do recall him having a hamstring problem, but I think that was 2 years ago. And regardless you can pull a hamstring running the bases, in the outfield...not like that injury proves he shouldn't catch.

Anyway, it is one of the few times the Pirates can maximize somebody's ability. They do that by having him play catcher and thus be one of the better "overall" catchers in the league. Usually they are plugging square pegs into round holes.


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 Post subject: Re: So, how long do we stay with this experiment?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 6:24 pm 
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BBF wrote:
ZelieMike wrote:
Nady is on the DL, and gone in a few weeks. Bay is most likely gone as well. He won't be replaceing anyone in RF in that case.

And, he doesn't help you at all on the DL

ZM


Unless both Bay and Nady are traded, you would effectively be replacing McCutchen with Chavez then, no?


Yes, but I am working under the "both are gone" scenario, and you are looking at McClouth, McCutch and Doumit in the OF.

And, at that point I would expect Paulino back. He can play. Both of us have seen it to be so.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: So, how long do we stay with this experiment?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 6:25 pm 
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PirateParrot wrote:

OK, sorry about saying you made it up but I think you are still wrong. He started last year with the club then got sent to AAA...


I may be thinking of two years ago. They all run together after a bit.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: So, how long do we stay with this experiment?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:28 pm 
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The argument that with Doumit catching we give the Pirates a big advantage offensely compared to most teams is powerful. Sure his bat is also in if he plays outfield but his catching replacement is not going to be near the offensive weapon.

Defensively he is improved and ok in my mind.

Problem is the injury thing. I know you can get hurt in any position but the catcher touches the ball on every pitch, not a few in the game. The position is more suseptible for injuries. If it is true the Doumit is injury prone, chances are greater for injury if he is behind the plate. he doesn't help the offense from the injury list at all -- advantage gone.

Not a decision I could easily make. That's why Russell makes the big money.

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 Post subject: Re: So, how long do we stay with this experiment?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:38 am 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Nady is on the DL, and gone in a few weeks. Bay is most likely gone as well. He won't be replaceing anyone in RF in that case.

He'll be replacing whoever was supposed to replace those players, such as McCutchen, Pearce, McLouth, or an outfielder we get in a trade. Plus, I'd much rather have an outfield reserve, such as Jason Michaels, as an everyday corner outfielder than have Chavez as our everyday catcher.

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And, he doesn't help you at all on the DL

ZM

True, but so far the injuries he's suffered, aside from the unpredictable concussion he received this year, are not injuries he received through the act of catching. He's gotten injured running the bases and fielding fly balls. These are not injuries that would be exacerbated by playing catcher. So it's hard to say that having Doumit at catcher would greatly enhance his propensity to get injured, as his injuries are not really catcher-related.

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 Post subject: Re: So, how long do we stay with this experiment?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:25 am 
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That is simply, factually untrue. While he did injure himself in the outfield last year, his career is one of injury, and one of catching. His minor league career was injury-filled due to catching.

His two injuries this year are directly caused by his bad defense. Fractured fingure, and fouls off his face mask.

His injury two years ago, was a hammy popped while catching.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: So, how long do we stay with this experiment?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:28 am 
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Hey did we draft Matt Wieters???? Oh Yah... we didn't...


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 Post subject: Re: So, how long do we stay with this experiment?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:24 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:


His injury two years ago, was a hammy popped while catching.



To be fair, though, that hammy popped as he was diving for a pop up near the on deck circle (if I am remembering correctly). Hard to say that is something he wouldn't be doing as an outfielder, no? (not necessarily in the on deck circle, but you know what I mean).

Honestly, if its the hammy you are worried about, the outfield is the last place you would want to place him.


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 Post subject: Re: So, how long do we stay with this experiment?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:27 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
That is simply, factually untrue. While he did injure himself in the outfield last year, his career is one of injury, and one of catching. His minor league career was injury-filled due to catching.

His two injuries this year are directly caused by his bad defense. Fractured fingure, and fouls off his face mask.

His injury two years ago, was a hammy popped while catching.

ZM


Are you out of your mind? Foul balls off the face mask happen to every catcher, including gold glovers. And the way our pitchers chase the catcher all over the place this year I'm not sure you can even attribute the finger to bad catching. And please check YOUR facts. Most of his injuries the last 2-3 years happened on the base paths or in the outfield. And I suppose his pulled "hammy" was a result of bad catching technique. Because guys never pull hamstrings any time else.... :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: So, how long do we stay with this experiment?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:29 pm 
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Doumit has only really had one bad injury and that was the thumb this year...concussions happen to catchers theres not much you can do about taking foul balls off the mask...Doumit is just injury prone anywhere!!!

There was an article in the Post Gazette yesterday saying how the new management wanted him to be an OFer and Chuck Tanner stood his ground to keep him as a catcher...

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 Post subject: Re: So, how long do we stay with this experiment?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:37 pm 
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I quite clearly I thought, referenced his minor league career, as well as his MLB career.

Am I right to read that you are seriously comparing the risk of a hammy pull from a squat position to jump and run, to that from an outfielder running from standing position?

And, yes, the ability to protect oneself is part of any catching repetoire that I've run across, including learning how to recieve the ball so as not break something. As for concusions, as you point out, he will continue to get hit in the head, and thus, continue to collect concusive symtoms, as they are cumulative.

Really, I'm surprised that folks seriously argue that catching carries the same injury risk as an OF or 1B position. And, further that removing Doumit from catching will lessen the chance of injury, and increase the chances of productive time on the field.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: So, how long do we stay with this experiment?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:41 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
I'm not making stuff up. I'm referring to the hammy he pulled while catching to start the year. When he dove to catch a foul ball. :roll:

That's what got him rolled into positional play.

And, I do not take kindly to being called a liar or a makeup artist.

You can however, refer to my failing memory or advanced adult on-set ADD, if you note it.

ZM

He was moved to the outfield because of Tracy's irrational love for Paulino's game calling, not because of injuries.

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 Post subject: Re: So, how long do we stay with this experiment?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:46 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
That is simply, factually untrue. While he did injure himself in the outfield last year, his career is one of injury, and one of catching. His minor league career was injury-filled due to catching.

His two injuries this year are directly caused by his bad defense. Fractured fingure, and fouls off his face mask.

His injury two years ago, was a hammy popped while catching.

ZM

I can tell that you are no catcher. There is no defensive skill that prevents you from being struck by fould tips. It is impossible to move your glove fast enough to catch a ball after it changes trajectory at 90mph a foot or two in front of you.

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 Post subject: Re: So, how long do we stay with this experiment?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:16 pm 
It's not an experiment. Doumit is a below average but acceptable defensive catcher with a very above average catcher's bat.


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 Post subject: Re: So, how long do we stay with this experiment?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:35 pm 
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sisyphus wrote:
I can tell that you are no catcher. There is no defensive skill that prevents you from being struck by fould tips. It is impossible to move your glove fast enough to catch a ball after it changes trajectory at 90mph a foot or two in front of you.


You are right, I am not, and have never claimed to be. My forte was making errors at 3b, and striking out a lot.

I ceded the point about catching foul balls (are all foul tip K's then, an accident?), but you have not addressed the pressing point.

He is getting concussed from balls in the mask, they are cumulative. How much time on the DL offsets the "good bat for a catcher" attitude. Especially when his bat is good for any position.

And, did I mention he played RF adeptly last year?

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: So, how long do we stay with this experiment?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:46 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Am I right to read that you are seriously comparing the risk of a hammy pull from a squat position to jump and run, to that from an outfielder running from standing position?

Yes, because the number of times a catcher must go from a squat position to a running position is not nearly as high as the number of times an outfielder must go from a standing position to a running position. Further, catchers rarely sprint to catch a fly ball, while outfielders do it far more often, and sprinting enhances the risk of injuring one's hamstring.

Do tell me, how often do catchers injure their hamstrings while catching? And how often do outfielders injure their hamstrings while playing the outfield?

ZelieMike wrote:
And, yes, the ability to protect oneself is part of any catching repetoire that I've run across, including learning how to recieve the ball so as not break something. As for concusions, as you point out, he will continue to get hit in the head, and thus, continue to collect concusive symtoms, as they are cumulative.

But one's likelihood to suffer a concussion is not affected at all by a player's propensity to get injured. The propensity to suffer a concussion is a characteristic of the position, not of the player. That's the point: whoever the Pirates place at catcher is just as likely to suffer a concussion as Doumit is.

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Really, I'm surprised that folks seriously argue that catching carries the same injury risk as an OF or 1B position. And, further that removing Doumit from catching will lessen the chance of injury, and increase the chances of productive time on the field.

ZM

No one is saying that catcher carries the same injury risk as OF or 1B. What we're saying is that Doumit's propensity to get injured has nothing to do with him being a catcher. Doumit may be put in harm's way as a catcher, but so would anyone who plays that position. What has made Doumit injury prone is mainly his hamstrings, and those will not be adversely affected by him playing catcher.

And yes, moving Doumit to a different position, like 1B or RF, may lessen the chances of him getting injured (although it increases the chances of a hammy pull if he goes to the OF). But moving Doumit to the OF also lessens the chances that the Pirates will win games, as he provides tremendous offensive value at a position where most teams play bad hitters. While I'm sensitive to keeping Doumit healthy, I'd like to see the Pirates win more often, and moving Doumit to a different position undercuts that interest.

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 Post subject: Re: So, how long do we stay with this experiment?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 9:39 pm 
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Willton wrote:
No one is saying that catcher carries the same injury risk as OF or 1B. What we're saying is that Doumit's propensity to get injured has nothing to do with him being a catcher. Doumit may be put in harm's way as a catcher, but so would anyone who plays that position. What has made Doumit injury prone is mainly his hamstrings, and those will not be adversely affected by him playing catcher...


That is bs on its face. Tell me, how often was Paulino on the IR through his career? Kendall? Spanky? Sanguillen? Ott? Or, any number of catchers.

His injuries include broken hands due to catching, or lack thereof. His risk to concussion is much greater than any other catcher, because he's had them and they haven't.

He simply cannot stay healthy behind the plate at a rate that offsets his defensive liablilities and keeps his bat in the game.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: So, how long do we stay with this experiment?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 12:09 am 
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ZelieMike wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
I can tell that you are no catcher. There is no defensive skill that prevents you from being struck by fould tips. It is impossible to move your glove fast enough to catch a ball after it changes trajectory at 90mph a foot or two in front of you.


You are right, I am not, and have never claimed to be. My forte was making errors at 3b, and striking out a lot.

I ceded the point about catching foul balls (are all foul tip K's then, an accident?), but you have not addressed the pressing point.

He is getting concussed from balls in the mask, they are cumulative. How much time on the DL offsets the "good bat for a catcher" attitude. Especially when his bat is good for any position.

And, did I mention he played RF adeptly last year?

ZM

If you're admitting that your assertion that he was injured because of his poor defense, okay.

Yes, all foul tip K's are primarily accidental. One catcher might have better hands than another, and thus be able to hold on to more foul tips, but whether or not a foul tip hits his glove in the first place is something that no catcher has any control over. It's simply impossible for any human being to react that quickly.

Doumit has shown that he's going to get hurt a lot no matter where he plays, so I see no point in moving him until the Pirates come up with a better catcher.

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