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 Post subject: So, how long do we stay with this experiment?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 12:00 pm 
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How long do we stay with Doumit as a catcher? I think (and have thought) the experiment should be over because:

1.) He's not a good catcher, and don't think he will ever pass that plateau
2.) He can't stay healthy, in large part to... see No. 1 above... and;
3.) His bat is good enough to be at ANY position, not just catcher.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: So, how long do we stay with this experiment?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 12:09 pm 
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Quite frankly, we stick with it until we find another catcher capable of hitting their weight AND exhibiting better defense than Doumit. Chavez fails on the first count, Paulino on both counts (or, even if you believe his offensive resurgence at Indy would translate if he were called back up, he still fails on the second count), and there is no other immediate option. Further, the other positions Doumit could potentially play (umm...RF?) are currently taken, so unless there is a trade, we have nowhere to move him.

However, I personally disagree with you that he will never be a good catcher. His improvement this year has been exponential, and there is no reason to think it won't continue. I think most of his defensive deficiencies are due to lack of reps in the minors, secondary to his injury history. As he plays more, he will get better defensively. The only legitimate beef is his injury record, but he showed last year that he is equally adept at injuring himself in the outfield, so why not play him where his bat would be most beneficial, at catcher, when he is in the lineup?


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 Post subject: Re: So, how long do we stay with this experiment?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 12:35 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
How long do we stay with Doumit as a catcher? I think (and have thought) the experiment should be over because:

1.) He's not a good catcher, and don't think he will ever pass that plateau
2.) He can't stay healthy, in large part to... see No. 1 above... and;
3.) His bat is good enough to be at ANY position, not just catcher.

ZM

First of all, this isn't an experiment. Doumit was drafted as a catcher and caught through his entire minor league career. Moving him to another position would be an experiment.

Secondly, what makes you think he can handle any other position better than he does catching?

Third, to justify moving Doumit you would have to have a catcher ready to take his place who can hit better than the guy Doumit replaces. What current Pirates starter can Chavez or Paulino out-hit?

Get used to seeing Doumit behind the plate, because that's where is likely to stay.

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 Post subject: Re: So, how long do we stay with this experiment?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 2:06 pm 
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First of all I think Doumit's catching has improved greatly. And when you combine his hitting and defense he is probably in the top tier of catchers. He is an injury risk anywhere you put him, so I don't even consider that. And as stated above we just don't have any options that are even close to being better. Plus if there is one position we seem to have a surplus it is outfield, the only other spot you could play Doumit...and then you still need a catcher.


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 Post subject: Re: So, how long do we stay with this experiment?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 2:38 pm 
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His injury last year came when he was, um, catching. He went to the OF after that upon return, and proved quite adept and with a better than average arm.

I agree he has improved defensively, from horrendous to barely adequate. His injury situation strikes me as a Catch 22. I've always said he defense is a function of his injury. I am believing his injuries are a function of his inadequacies as catcher.

He won't get broken fingers and concusions in RF, which, btw, did I say he has shown he was proficient at.

His bat is good enough for any position. It doesn't need to be some "secret weapon" at catcher.

You need his bat in the lineup. It won't be there if he catches.

And, no I don't believe Paulino is worse defensively. He calls a good game! :oops:

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: So, how long do we stay with this experiment?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:03 pm 
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I think that since we are somewhat searching for a first basemen we should slowly evolve him into a first basemen. His bat is to good to keep out of our lineup.


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 Post subject: Re: So, how long do we stay with this experiment?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:27 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
His injury last year came when he was, um, catching. ZM


I think you forgot to finish your sentence...it should read that his wrist injury last year came when he was, um, catching...a ball in right field. Actually, I don't even remember if he caught the ball. He did hurt his hammy twice if I remember, once when catching and once when running the bases. Right fielders also have to run the bases, as well as run more in the field. I see no reason to believe he would suffer fewer injuries out there. You are right, he probably won't get the concussions, but he'll probably crash into walls, dive, etc. which will predispose him to injury.


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 Post subject: Re: So, how long do we stay with this experiment?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:36 pm 
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BBF wrote:
ZelieMike wrote:
His injury last year came when he was, um, catching. ZM


I think you forgot to finish your sentence...it should read that his wrist injury last year came when he was, um, catching...a ball in right field. Actually, I don't even remember if he caught the ball. He did hurt his hammy twice if I remember, once when catching and once when running the bases. Right fielders also have to run the bases, as well as run more in the field. I see no reason to believe he would suffer fewer injuries out there. You are right, he probably won't get the concussions, but he'll probably crash into walls, dive, etc. which will predispose him to injury.



His wrist injury happened while he was playing right field. He was activated from the DL on 9/8. In his very first game he rolled his ankle while making a pivot to throw while playing RIGHT FIELD!!!! Geez...let's make stuff up to prove our point.

Let's face it...he get hurt a lot...regardless of where he plays. I saw an interesting fact in his bio. He was voted best defensive catcher in 2004. Don't know if he regressed, or if that tells you the state of catching in the organization!! I still think he is at least decent behind the plate these days. Not great, but decent.


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 Post subject: Re: So, how long do we stay with this experiment?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:49 pm 
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I'm not making stuff up. I'm referring to the hammy he pulled while catching to start the year. When he dove to catch a foul ball. :roll:

That's what got him rolled into positional play.

And, I do not take kindly to being called a liar or a makeup artist.

You can however, refer to my failing memory or advanced adult on-set ADD, if you note it.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: So, how long do we stay with this experiment?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 4:42 pm 
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Whatever shortcomings Doumit has on defense are more than compensated for by his good bat. A hitter of Doumit's caliber that can play catcher is very difficult to find, and having Doumit play catcher puts this team at a distinct advantage offensively. Placing him anywhere else would hurt the team, as it would require the removal of one of Bay, Nady, or LaRoche in favor of Chavez (and while LaRoche is hitting terribly, he's hitting better than Chavez and playing good defense at first).

Playing Doumit at catcher is no experiment. It's maximizing the Pirates' ability to win games.

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 Post subject: Re: So, how long do we stay with this experiment?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 4:47 pm 
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Nady is on the DL, and gone in a few weeks. Bay is most likely gone as well. He won't be replaceing anyone in RF in that case.

And, he doesn't help you at all on the DL

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: So, how long do we stay with this experiment?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 4:49 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Nady is on the DL, and gone in a few weeks. Bay is most likely gone as well. He won't be replaceing anyone in RF in that case.

And, he doesn't help you at all on the DL

ZM


Unless both Bay and Nady are traded, you would effectively be replacing McCutchen with Chavez then, no?


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 Post subject: Re: So, how long do we stay with this experiment?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 5:33 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
I'm not making stuff up. I'm referring to the hammy he pulled while catching to start the year. When he dove to catch a foul ball. :roll:

That's what got him rolled into positional play.

And, I do not take kindly to being called a liar or a makeup artist.

You can however, refer to my failing memory or advanced adult on-set ADD, if you note it.

ZM


OK, sorry about saying you made it up but I think you are still wrong. He started last year with the club then got sent to AAA. Tore it up down there and got called back and at that point started playing multiple positions. I do recall him having a hamstring problem, but I think that was 2 years ago. And regardless you can pull a hamstring running the bases, in the outfield...not like that injury proves he shouldn't catch.

Anyway, it is one of the few times the Pirates can maximize somebody's ability. They do that by having him play catcher and thus be one of the better "overall" catchers in the league. Usually they are plugging square pegs into round holes.


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 Post subject: Re: So, how long do we stay with this experiment?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 6:24 pm 
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BBF wrote:
ZelieMike wrote:
Nady is on the DL, and gone in a few weeks. Bay is most likely gone as well. He won't be replaceing anyone in RF in that case.

And, he doesn't help you at all on the DL

ZM


Unless both Bay and Nady are traded, you would effectively be replacing McCutchen with Chavez then, no?


Yes, but I am working under the "both are gone" scenario, and you are looking at McClouth, McCutch and Doumit in the OF.

And, at that point I would expect Paulino back. He can play. Both of us have seen it to be so.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: So, how long do we stay with this experiment?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 6:25 pm 
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PirateParrot wrote:

OK, sorry about saying you made it up but I think you are still wrong. He started last year with the club then got sent to AAA...


I may be thinking of two years ago. They all run together after a bit.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: So, how long do we stay with this experiment?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:28 pm 
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The argument that with Doumit catching we give the Pirates a big advantage offensely compared to most teams is powerful. Sure his bat is also in if he plays outfield but his catching replacement is not going to be near the offensive weapon.

Defensively he is improved and ok in my mind.

Problem is the injury thing. I know you can get hurt in any position but the catcher touches the ball on every pitch, not a few in the game. The position is more suseptible for injuries. If it is true the Doumit is injury prone, chances are greater for injury if he is behind the plate. he doesn't help the offense from the injury list at all -- advantage gone.

Not a decision I could easily make. That's why Russell makes the big money.

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 Post subject: Re: So, how long do we stay with this experiment?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:38 am 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Nady is on the DL, and gone in a few weeks. Bay is most likely gone as well. He won't be replaceing anyone in RF in that case.

He'll be replacing whoever was supposed to replace those players, such as McCutchen, Pearce, McLouth, or an outfielder we get in a trade. Plus, I'd much rather have an outfield reserve, such as Jason Michaels, as an everyday corner outfielder than have Chavez as our everyday catcher.

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And, he doesn't help you at all on the DL

ZM

True, but so far the injuries he's suffered, aside from the unpredictable concussion he received this year, are not injuries he received through the act of catching. He's gotten injured running the bases and fielding fly balls. These are not injuries that would be exacerbated by playing catcher. So it's hard to say that having Doumit at catcher would greatly enhance his propensity to get injured, as his injuries are not really catcher-related.

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 Post subject: Re: So, how long do we stay with this experiment?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:25 am 
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That is simply, factually untrue. While he did injure himself in the outfield last year, his career is one of injury, and one of catching. His minor league career was injury-filled due to catching.

His two injuries this year are directly caused by his bad defense. Fractured fingure, and fouls off his face mask.

His injury two years ago, was a hammy popped while catching.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: So, how long do we stay with this experiment?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:28 am 
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Hey did we draft Matt Wieters???? Oh Yah... we didn't...


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 Post subject: Re: So, how long do we stay with this experiment?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:24 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:


His injury two years ago, was a hammy popped while catching.



To be fair, though, that hammy popped as he was diving for a pop up near the on deck circle (if I am remembering correctly). Hard to say that is something he wouldn't be doing as an outfielder, no? (not necessarily in the on deck circle, but you know what I mean).

Honestly, if its the hammy you are worried about, the outfield is the last place you would want to place him.


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