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 Post subject: Re: April 30, 2008 Pirates at New York Mets
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 4:24 pm 
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What a great play by Doumit to make it to 2nd after getting caught in the pickle. This is why I miss him in the line-up.


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 Post subject: Re: April 30, 2008 Pirates at New York Mets
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:01 pm 
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Who scored the two touchdowns for the Pirates today?

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 Post subject: Re: April 30, 2008 Pirates at New York Mets
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:15 pm 
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Nice spot to get JVB some work in a low pressure situation to get his confidence up. Will we see Meek for the 8th and 9th?


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 Post subject: Re: April 30, 2008 Pirates at New York Mets
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:20 pm 
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I had almost forgotten that Meek was even on the team.


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 Post subject: Re: April 30, 2008 Pirates at New York Mets
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:23 pm 
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burghermeister wrote:
Nice spot to get JVB some work in a low pressure situation to get his confidence up. Will we see Meek for the 8th and 9th?


So let it be written; so let it be done. Meek's in after JR let JVB bat for himself to close out the 7th. Best bat left on the bench, I guess.....


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 Post subject: Re: April 30, 2008 Pirates at New York Mets
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:49 pm 
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Willton wrote:
Perez seems to have either amazing games or horrible games. He appears to rarely a normal 6 inning, 3-run outing. I guess we caught him on a bad day.

I still wish we didn't throw him in the Nady-Hernandez deal.


I am guessing Mets fans wish that deal never happened.

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 Post subject: Re: April 30, 2008 Pirates at New York Mets
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:50 pm 
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Game over. Another 2-hitter for the Buccos albeit with *9* free passes issued. This trib snippet says that Gorzo left with back pain after the 5th. Anyone watching or listening know more about this?


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 Post subject: Re: April 30, 2008 Pirates at New York Mets
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:53 pm 
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This is the first time Meek has pitched in a game that the Pirates actually won.

Also, this has to be the least impressive 13 - 1 win I have ever seen. How do you walk 9 and still win by 12 runs? Bay, Laroche, and Bautista go 1 - 12? Meek threw 37 pitches and only 17 strikes.

I know I am dwelling on the negative and should be satisified that the Pirates won at all. Just was expecting to see better stats when I looked at the box score.


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 Post subject: Re: April 30, 2008 Pirates at New York Mets
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 6:44 pm 
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Kevin the Bucco wrote:
This is the first time Meek has pitched in a game that the Pirates actually won.

Also, this has to be the least impressive 13 - 1 win I have ever seen. How do you walk 9 and still win by 12 runs? Bay, Laroche, and Bautista go 1 - 12? Meek threw 37 pitches and only 17 strikes.

I know I am dwelling on the negative and should be satisified that the Pirates won at all. Just was expecting to see better stats when I looked at the box score.

I agree with you on the pitching point, but I think you're way off with the hitting.

1. Every starting position player got on base at least once.
2. Your focus on Bay, LaRoche, and Bautista totally missed the fact that each player walked once. Hits are not the only positive things one can do on offense.

When the team records 12 hits and 7 walks, that's a pretty impressive day.

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 Post subject: Re: April 30, 2008 Pirates at New York Mets
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 6:48 pm 
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This game exemplifies why I hate the distinction between earned runs and unearned runs. Oliver Perez gave up 7 runs today, but apparantly because of a single error by Luis Castillo, only 2 of them were earned. What a crock. This is why I think ERA can be misleading.

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 Post subject: Re: April 30, 2008 Pirates at New York Mets
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 6:55 pm 
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Willton wrote:
This game exemplifies why I hate the distinction between earned runs and unearned runs. Oliver Perez gave up 7 runs today, but apparantly because of a single error by Luis Castillo, only 2 of them were earned. What a crock. This is why I think ERA can be misleading.


That must have been a huge error to account for 5 unearned runs...

Were there people on base when the error occured?

I missed the game today, I had clients outside and was nowhere near a computer

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 Post subject: Re: April 30, 2008 Pirates at New York Mets
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 6:57 pm 
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Willton wrote:
This game exemplifies why I hate the distinction between earned runs and unearned runs. Oliver Perez gave up 7 runs today, but apparantly because of a single error by Luis Castillo, only 2 of them were earned. What a crock. This is why I think ERA can be misleading.


ERA could certainly be better. I'd just as soon go with RA.

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 Post subject: Re: April 30, 2008 Pirates at New York Mets
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 7:06 pm 
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nad69dan wrote:
Willton wrote:

That must have been a huge error to account for 5 unearned runs...

Were there people on base when the error occured?



Without knowing the specific circumstances in this case, the answer is that if an error keeps an inning alive every run thereafter will be 'unearned' by the pitcher.
One of the little quirks of Henry Chadwick's system.

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 Post subject: Re: April 30, 2008 Pirates at New York Mets
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:02 pm 
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How is it the pitcher's fault that the team cannot make routine plays behind him?

Errors are not called for difficult plays or "iffy" plays - only on those where a major league defensive player is expected to make the play.

A pitcher is supposed to get 3 outs per inning - not 4 or 5. ERA is a good barometer as to how the pitcher is doing his job. The W-L record is much more an indication of how well the rest of the team is doing its job.


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 Post subject: Re: April 30, 2008 Pirates at New York Mets
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 10:47 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
How is it the pitcher's fault that the team cannot make routine plays behind him?

Errors are not called for difficult plays or "iffy" plays - only on those where a major league defensive player is expected to make the play.

A pitcher is supposed to get 3 outs per inning - not 4 or 5. ERA is a good barometer as to how the pitcher is doing his job. The W-L record is much more an indication of how well the rest of the team is doing its job.

Unearned runs cannot be solely the fault of the defense. Certainly, a pitcher should not be responsible for the defense's ability (or inability) to turn batted balls into outs. However, one error should not suddenly absolve a pitcher of responsibility for 4 runs that he allowed to occur, particularly if the pitcher walked those runs around the diamond (as Perez essentially did today). A pitcher's job is not over once an error is made; he must still continue to get his team out of the inning without allowing the other team to score, and his failures in doing so should be noted. We shouldn't just pretend that the runs didn't happen while the pitcher was on the mound. A good pitcher is capable of preventing unearned runs as well as earned runs.

In the end, parsing earned runs from unearned runs becomes an exercise in obfuscation. Forget ERA; stick with RA (or Run Average). If you want to account for the defense, then just look at a pitcher's RA in context with the Defensive Efficiency of the team behind him. We don't have to have just one stat that will explain everything about a pitcher, especially when that one stat fails at doing so.

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 Post subject: Re: April 30, 2008 Pirates at New York Mets
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 2:21 am 
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By the way, Bertie, I'm not the author of that quote. nad69dan is.

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 Post subject: Re: April 30, 2008 Pirates at New York Mets
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 2:41 am 
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Willton wrote:
Unearned runs cannot be solely the fault of the defense. Certainly, a pitcher should not be responsible for the defense's ability (or inability) to turn batted balls into outs.


Not a difficult concept.

(1) Pitcher is not responsible for a base runner who gets on base due to defensive mistake(s). Guy leads off an inning and gets on base due to error, next batter hits a HR, pitcher is responsible for 1 earned run. What beef do you have with that?

(2) Pitchers are expected to get 3 outs per inning. Not 4, or 5 - 3. Once the pitcher does his job, then any further runs are unearned. Two outs, nobody on, grounder to second that is muffed - pitcher deserves to be sitting on the bench after getting three outs.

(3) You think a pitcher should be responsible for runs that are attributable to his pitching, no matter what happened before then. In your world, pitcher gets two outs, then fans batter number three but catcher muffs final out ... then next batter hits routine grounder to SS, which is muffed ... then next batter hits pop-up in foul territority which third baseman drops, before the batter hits an easy 4-hopper to second which is muffed - now, bases loaded 2 outs. You think the pitcher should get a seventh out. If he gives up a HR, you would attribute that to the pitcher. After all, he gave up the HR ...

No, the pitcher did his job. The defense did not. Once the pitcher gets what should be the third out, his job is done. Trust me, if a two-out error is made, the pitcher does not say, "Hey, who gives a shit, the runs are unearned." He works to get the fourth out or, as Grabow did earlier this year, a fifth out.

But if he is unable to get the 4th out before giving up a run, then he does not deserve negative stats.


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 Post subject: Re: April 30, 2008 Pirates at New York Mets
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 4:31 am 
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Bucfan wrote:
Willton wrote:
Unearned runs cannot be solely the fault of the defense. Certainly, a pitcher should not be responsible for the defense's ability (or inability) to turn batted balls into outs.


Not a difficult concept.

(1) Pitcher is not responsible for a base runner who gets on base due to defensive mistake(s). Guy leads off an inning and gets on base due to error, next batter hits a HR, pitcher is responsible for 1 earned run. What beef do you have with that?

My problem with your hypo is the fact that you're picking an isolated example that does not deal with the flaws that I pointed out. Pointing out the instances where the rule appears to make sense does not minimize the instances where the rule makes no sense.

Bucfan wrote:
(2) Pitchers are expected to get 3 outs per inning. Not 4, or 5 - 3. Once the pitcher does his job, then any further runs are unearned. Two outs, nobody on, grounder to second that is muffed - pitcher deserves to be sitting on the bench after getting three outs.

No, Bucfan, teams are expected to get 3 outs per inning. Pitchers are a giant influence to that effect, but they do not work by themselves. A pitcher is charged with the duty to work with his teammates in getting those three outs. It's not a one-sided relationship: the pitcher works for the defense just like the defense works for the pitcher. If a pitcher allows a batted ball to get to the defense, and the defense turns it into an out, the pitcher should not get all of the credit for the out. Likewise, if a defender muffs a batted ball, the pitcher should not be absolved of blame, as he allowed the batted ball to reach the defender in the first place. Saying that the pitcher is somehow absolved of responsibility for a subsequent run is obscuring the pitcher's duties to his team.

Bucfan wrote:
(3) You think a pitcher should be responsible for runs that are attributable to his pitching, no matter what happened before then. In your world, pitcher gets two outs, then fans batter number three but catcher muffs final out ... then next batter hits routine grounder to SS, which is muffed ... then next batter hits pop-up in foul territority which third baseman drops, before the batter hits an easy 4-hopper to second which is muffed - now, bases loaded 2 outs. You think the pitcher should get a seventh out. If he gives up a HR, you would attribute that to the pitcher. After all, he gave up the HR ...

(1) What's crazy to me is that in this convoluted world of errors and unearned runs, the HR in your hypo is still considered unearned, even though the defense had nothing to do with it. It assumes that the hitter would not have hit the homerun but for the prior gaffes on defense. That's absurd.

(2) In my world (as well as the real world, and not the hypothetical construct of earned and unearned runs), yes, there would be no distinction between those specific runs. They would, however, be looked at in context with the poor defensive play behind him, which is reflected in Defensive Efficiency. It's not as tightly packaged as you'd apparently like it to be, but it's a more accurate representation of what actually happened while the pitcher was on the mound.

Bucfan wrote:
No, the pitcher did his job. The defense did not. Once the pitcher gets what should be the third out, his job is done. Trust me, if a two-out error is made, the pitcher does not say, "Hey, who gives a shit, the runs are unearned." He works to get the fourth out or, as Grabow did earlier this year, a fifth out.

But if he is unable to get the 4th out before giving up a run, then he does not deserve negative stats.

Wrong. A pitcher's job, as well as the defense's job, is never done until those three outs are recorded each inning. Pretending otherwise is foolish. A pitcher's job is not done just because some sportswriter sitting in a pressbox with a scorecard and a bag of Doritos says it is. The pitcher still bears the responsibility of helping his team in getting out of the inning, and his failures in doing so should be so noted. He should not be given a blank slate every time an error occurs, especially when he does nothing to help his teammates in attaining that third out (like Perez did on Wednesday).

The simple fact of the matter is that errors will happen. Good pitchers will minimize the damage caused by them, and bad pitchers will not. A good pitcher will allow fewer runners on base before the errors happen (so there aren't runners to score on the errors), and will allow fewer hits and walks after errors happen (so the runners who reached on errors won't score). Invoking the concept of unearned runs creates a fantasy world that actually understates the value of good pitchers while overstating the value of bad pitchers. Therefore, because it obscures the value of the pitcher, the distinction between earned and unearned runs should be done away with.

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 Post subject: Re: April 30, 2008 Pirates at New York Mets
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 8:49 am 
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Bucfan wrote:
How is it the pitcher's fault that the team cannot make routine plays behind him?

Errors are not called for difficult plays or "iffy" plays - only on those where a major league defensive player is expected to make the play.

A pitcher is supposed to get 3 outs per inning - not 4 or 5. ERA is a good barometer as to how the pitcher is doing his job. The W-L record is much more an indication of how well the rest of the team is doing its job.


The thing is that the end of an inning is not the end of the game. For example, imagine that a pitcher gets two quick outs, followed by an error that puts a runner on first base. The pitcher then proceeds to give up four consecutive home runs. Shouldn't he bear the burden of those home runs? It's not like those same four batters wouldn't be coming up in the next inning. Attributing those four runs to poor defense isn't quite right.

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 Post subject: Re: April 30, 2008 Pirates at New York Mets
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 8:56 am 
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sisyphus wrote:
The thing is that the end of an inning is not the end of the game. For example, imagine that a pitcher gets two quick outs, followed by an error that puts a runner on first base. The pitcher then proceeds to give up four consecutive home runs. Shouldn't he bear the burden of those home runs? It's not like those same four batters wouldn't be coming up in the next inning. Attributing those four runs to poor defense isn't quite right.


You beat me to it, sisy. Those batters could hit the homeruns the very next inning, and then they would be earned.

If you want to say that any runner who reached on an error who then scores is an unearned run, fine. But if you want to talk about any runs after that, the argument is much less convincing.

However, what is lost in all of this is whether or not there is a difference, in the grand scheme of things, between ERA and RA. Yes, I know the numbers themselves diverge, but are there good pitchers who have stellar ERA's and horrible RA's? Consequently are there bad pitchers on good defensive teams who have RA's almost equivalent to their ERA's?

What I am saying is that the vast number of runs scored are earned runs. Therefore, across the board, RA should reflect ERA and either stat should do just as fine of a job of telling you whether the pitcher is any good or not. In the rare case of a very good pitcher on a poor defensive team, you could look at the RA in the context of defensive efficiency. But I would guess that those are rather special cases to begin with.


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