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 Post subject: Re: Roll Call: who's still committed to rebuilding?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 2:22 pm 
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Argentum wrote:
Mclouth and Doumit are safe if I'm GM.

Yes, I'm kinda assuming that those two are off-limits in any sort of rebuild firesale. But no one else, really.

It's a tough sell to the general public, though.

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 Post subject: Re: Roll Call: who's still committed to rebuilding?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 2:29 pm 
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I think most of us are pretty much on the same page. NH has to deal any of the listed players whenever an appropriate deal is worked out. I'd echo that a reliever, Marte first or Grabow should be gone. That Bay first because he is only here for 1.5 years, then Nady or both if the deals are right. I also would shop Wilson cause he'll soon be gone anyway.
Doumit, Nate, Capps most stay. Additionally, I would not trade any of our SP now. Most have little value on the market, and Dumatrait may just be so good we want him as a number 2 or 3 guy.

The team is doing better this year so far. This month is the test as we start playing the monster league. If we stay around 500 after that, we have something to talk about.

But yes, I still support selling for the future.

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 Post subject: Re: Roll Call: who's still committed to rebuilding?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 2:43 pm 
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LtCol Kojak Slaphead wrote:
It's a tough sell to the general public, though.


Yes it is, but so is selling them on more patience while the Pirates continue to lose more than they win over the next few years.


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 Post subject: Re: Roll Call: who's still committed to rebuilding?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:14 pm 
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I too throw my hat in with the rebuilding crowd. Our pitching and fielding is currently among the worst in the league (345 runs allowed, 15th in the NL), and we can't expect our outfield and catcher to carry the offense day in and day out. Further, attempting to contend this year, with a strong likelihood of failing at it, will eviscerate the Pirates chances at contending in future years, and the chances of the Bucs being successful in 2010 are much higher than the chances of the Bucs being successful this year.

Remember, .500 is not the goal; the playoffs are. Right now, the 2008 Bucs are not good enough to reach the playoffs. The 2010 Bucs might be.

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 Post subject: Re: Roll Call: who's still committed to rebuilding?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:20 pm 
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It is possible that this team is playing about as well as it can. The starting pitching was expected to be better and the hitting to be worse. So it is possible that those will balance out the rest of the season. The team, on a whole, is more healthy. And maybe the voice in the clubhouse is finally one the players gel with and are willing to listen to. That doesn't make them contenders. They are more fun to watch and more competitive for sure.

This is where(in addition to the recent draft) we will start to find out a little more about our new GM. If he gets an offer that improves our club for the future(ie top prospects) for any of the aforementioned players you have to make the move. If nothing else you know for a fact that Mcutcheon is going to be playing CF no later than the start of next year. So someone has to go. And who knows, with the parity in baseball maybe the team can still stay within reach even after making some trades. It's happened before...


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 Post subject: Re: Roll Call: who's still committed to rebuilding?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:50 pm 
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LtCol Kojak Slaphead wrote:
I am, but watching the team in person for the first time this season the other night, I realized that if NH sticks to his guns, it will be an even harder sell than usual for a lot of fans. Consider:
  • Ostensibly, he'd be looking to deal 2/3 of an outfield currently sporting a pretty damn impressive mean OPS of .930 — the best offensive outfield in the majors, by some margin.
  • They've managed to stay just a shade below .500 despite significant regressions by their two best starters, marginal offensive contributions from Freddie and Laroche and key injuries to Jack and Doumit. The argument could certainly be made that a reversal of fortunes in any of these areas could put them in the thick of the NL wild card hunt.
  • They seem to have stumbled upon some form of team "chemistry" — however you care to define that.

So what's the general feeling here? Should NH stay the course and deal Bay, Nady, Capps, etc. at the deadline for high-ceiling prospect packages? Stand pat, see how the season shakes out and deal in the offseason, when the returns might well be better? Or if they're still in the vicinity of .500 around the trade deadline, does he trade Nady for some rotation help and make a run, if not for the wild card, at least for ending the consecutive losing season streak? 83 wins would shut up a lot of people...

He's got some tough decisions to make over the next month.

I don't think that the decisions are all that tough. The Pirates goal should be contending for the division title consistently. This team isn't good enough to do that, and the ages of their key players tell us that it won't belong before they begin to decline. I wouldn't trade them just to trade them, but any time you get an offer than will help you get closer to your goal, you've got to pull the trigger.

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 Post subject: Re: Roll Call: who's still committed to rebuilding?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:52 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
If you think you can make the playoffs, you go for it. Can't be any simpler than that.

You are still allowed to trade in the offseason last I checked.

ZM

I might agree with you if you're talking about winning the division, but chasing the wild card would be a mistake.

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 Post subject: Re: Roll Call: who's still committed to rebuilding?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:53 pm 
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bassoondirector wrote:
I agree with ZM. If the Pirates are in the hunt, then NH needs to do everything he can to win THIS season. If the Pirates become that good that they are in the hunt, then trading and making deals to bring in younger talent over the Winter will be just as fruitful if not more so.

Yes, it will, unless the wheels come off and Bay, Nady, etc. put up dreadful second halves or suffer serious injuries. If that happens, you're doomed for another 3 years or more.

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 Post subject: Re: Roll Call: who's still committed to rebuilding?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:58 pm 
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LtCol Kojak Slaphead wrote:
Argentum wrote:
Mclouth and Doumit are safe if I'm GM.

Yes, I'm kinda assuming that those two are off-limits in any sort of rebuild firesale. But no one else, really.

It's a tough sell to the general public, though.

This may sound horrible, but screw the general public. You can't build a winning team by using public relations as a guide. You do what you think is best and stand or fall by the results. If you succeed, all will be forgiven. Winning trumps all, and the only way you'll be able to see a winning Pirate team is from the Clemente Bridge.

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 Post subject: Re: Roll Call: who's still committed to rebuilding?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 4:53 pm 
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I don't think you need to radically deplete the talent level in the short term to increase it in the long term. If smart decisions are made, you can gradually increase the talent level while keeping the team at least marginally competitive. I think that is already being done.

We need to reconfigure the team in addtion to increasing the talent. We need a true ace or two in the rotation, plus we have too many lefty starters. Teams like the Cubs feast on our lefties. And we don't have nearly enough lefty hitters.

We need more bench players who complement the starters, meaning bat opposite, the way Minky complements Bautista. And we need a better arm in left field, because of the PNC Park dimensions.


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 Post subject: Re: Roll Call: who's still committed to rebuilding?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 7:21 pm 
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This is a tough call.

My gut reaction to the question is that, with a team that actually has some good things going on, why would you go and get rid of the good things? Instead, we should keep the good things we have and try to improve in the areas where we aren't as good.

I mean if we could magically add an ace and some decent upgrades at 1st and 3rd, I really believe we would be a legitimate contender in the NL. Having good players has not been a very common thing for us and I really hate to just dump the ones we have for the sake of yet another "rebuild." We all know how from experience how tough that is, with all the things that have to fall into place at the right time for that strategy to actually produce a winning team.

Plus I think there is value in being "in the hunt" especially for a team that has been down as long as we have. Even if we fall short of the playoffs, being in the hunt will help produce a winning environment in our clubhouse, and give the players some pride in the uniform to be playing meaningful games into the latter part of the season. It will give young players and veterans alike reason to hope that they could actually be part of a winning team for this franchise, that it's not totally impossible, and stop them thinking that if they ever want to win anything they will have to get out of Pittsburgh. Plus if you fall short you can always go out and upgrade in the off-season, and maybe getting close would inspire ownership to spend more after seeing how a team "in the hunt" would energize the fans and create buzz, which it would do in a big way.

Unfortunately though, we can't fix our problems with magic. Aces and good corner players are hard to find and most decent ones are too expensive for us. Also, like others have mentioned, guys like Nady, Nate, Phil, and maybe even Bay are outperforming their historical levels of play, and over the course of the season our offense will probably cool down. Plus if these guys are going to be free agents, and we have no chance to retain them, you probably do have to deal them out.

Like I said, tough call but definitely wait and see where we stand one month from now.


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 Post subject: Re: Roll Call: who's still committed to rebuilding?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 7:38 pm 
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I think the question is moot until we're actually in the hunt. Right now we're in 4th place and we're ten games out of first.

Even if we do end up winning some games here in June, I'd trade. We've got to build a good core here. The 2003 Royals are a great cautionary tale of how little a single winning season can mean.


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 Post subject: Re: Roll Call: who's still committed to rebuilding?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 10:28 pm 
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Good to see you, charlie. We all value your insightful posts.

I know Bay and Nady have to go.. I hate that.. I don't want to see Bay and Jack Wilson playing with other ball clubs. Am I crazy? I want to keep Jack!!


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 Post subject: Re: Roll Call: who's still committed to rebuilding?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:19 am 
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charlie wrote:
I think the question is moot until we're actually in the hunt. Right now we're in 4th place and we're ten games out of first.

Even if we do end up winning some games here in June, I'd trade. We've got to build a good core here. The 2003 Royals are a great cautionary tale of how little a single winning season can mean.


Agree on all points. And even if the Bucs were in the hunt, it would be in a league that's significantly weaker than the AL. Up here, they laugh at how weak the NL is and point to the last four World Series, three of which were 4-game sweeps by the Red Sox, the White Sox, and the Red Sox again.

Ultimately, I want a Pirate team that would be competitive if it were in the same division with Boston and the Yankees. That day isn't even a faint blip on the radar screen yet.

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 Post subject: Re: Roll Call: who's still committed to rebuilding?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:35 am 
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See me in a month when this will be a much easier decision to make...I'm not convinced one way or the other yet as to what the Pirates should do.


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 Post subject: Re: Roll Call: who's still committed to rebuilding?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 10:03 am 
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Ollie wrote:
Good to see you, charlie. We all value your insightful posts.

I know Bay and Nady have to go.. I hate that.. I don't want to see Bay and Jack Wilson playing with other ball clubs. Am I crazy? I want to keep Jack!!

Sounds like you might suffer from empty-nest syndrome. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Roll Call: who's still committed to rebuilding?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 2:23 pm 
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I've always been committed to winning.


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 Post subject: Re: Roll Call: who's still committed to rebuilding?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 9:06 am 
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Jeremy wrote:
I've always been committed to winning.

That would be "ambiguity" for the win. Check and mate, sir.

The firing of Bill Bavasi in Seattle this week should provide a tidy little cautionary tale about going for it with a mediocre but overachieving team. (Not that the Pirates have been either of those things over the past 4 games). To be sure, Bavasi did some Littlefield-esque deals (see: contracts for Carlos Silva, Jarrod Washburn, Richie Sexson; also, trading the farm for Erik Bedard) to put the Mariners where they are today, but the root of the problem was thinking that last year's "why not" team — who outperformed their Pythagorean record by 9 wins — was anything but an aberration. Most everyone outside of Seattle's front office and a small portion of their fanbase could see that.

Take the on-field positives — Nate and Doumit busting out — for what they are. Be happy that Bay and Nady are putting up numbers that will maximize returns at the deadline. Be encouraged by the draft and other infrastructural improvements the club has made in the past 6-8 months. And steel yourself for a hurricane of whining and told-you-so's when NH starts remaking the ML roster in earnest, no matter what their record is.

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 Post subject: Re: Roll Call: who's still committed to rebuilding?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 10:08 am 
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Time to get realistic about this team. It is becoming clearer by the day that we are not a 500 team and not in the hunt for the wild card, and certainly not the division title.

That being said, it's time to forget the talk of keeping these winners together and making a run. How are we doing so far against the AL?

There is some real value in Bay, Nady, and Wilson now, and it's now we should be shopping them to other GMs. I also don't want us to get worse but don't think winning is in the cards for this bunch. If we wait too long we'll get very little for the guys we could move for something today. Isn't it a mistake to wait and shorten the time these guys have til FA and therefore less marketability? and if their great start flattens out, aren't we risking getting nothing again. :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :?


[u]IT'S TIME TO ACT NOW!![u]

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2011 Will Be Our Year -- well make that 2012 (just saying) So it looks like 2013 now - how long must this go on!
THIS IS IT-- NO MORE STREAK!!! *** Finally*** Time to win it in 2014


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 Post subject: Re: Roll Call: who's still committed to rebuilding?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 10:15 am 
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I just re-read my last post and man does it read negativity. Sorry about that but right now that's how she looks to me.'Can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.'

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2011 Will Be Our Year -- well make that 2012 (just saying) So it looks like 2013 now - how long must this go on!
THIS IS IT-- NO MORE STREAK!!! *** Finally*** Time to win it in 2014


Last edited by Substitute2 on Wed Jun 18, 2008 10:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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