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 Post subject: Who the hell is Murray Chass?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 1:53 pm 
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Saw this on Dejan's blog today, a link to an article on Murray's blog site saying that Selig needs to investigate the Pirates...

Enjoy it and please leave comments...

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As the season dwindles down to a precious few weeks, attention is focused on remaining races - not that there are any - and the playoffs ahead. But pause for a moment in your excited anticipation and think of how Pittsburgh Pirates fans approach the post-season.

They may actually look forward to it eagerly because once they get beyond Oct. 4, the Pirates can’t lose any more games this year. They probably can’t make any more trades either because they have already traded everybody of value.

On second thought they have Andrew McCutchen (at right) on their roster, and if they traded Nyjer Morgan they can trade Andrew McCutchen.

Simply put, the Pirates are an embarrassment to Pittsburgh and an embarrassment to Major League Baseball. It’s not just that the Pirates are a poor team, a losing team, but they are an embarrassment because of the way they have become a worse team than they already were and how they are trying to hoodwink their fans.


http://www.murraychass.com/?p=980

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 Post subject: Re: Who the hell is Murray Chass?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 2:18 pm 
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I don't usually post here anymore....it is much more humorous to watch all you experts talk about your "hypotheticals", "ifs", and "whens" (I see a lot of you have moved your timetable back to 2012), but Murray is spot on.

This organization is a train wreck. Period. He is just saying what everyone except the four or five kool aid drinkers that talk theory on this board already knows. This team is an embarrassment.

Just assuming, and it is a big assumption, that all of these "prospects" pan out, they will be so shell shocked by the constant beatings they take each day they will be so downtrodden and discouraged they will be crying to leave.

Don't worry about saving a bandwagon seat for me.....they've got to win me back by proving they are serious. And, along with so many others, what they are doing now is not very convincing.


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 Post subject: Re: Who the hell is Murray Chass?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 2:54 pm 
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Steve1118 wrote:
I don't usually post here anymore....it is much more humorous to watch all you experts talk about your "hypotheticals", "ifs", and "whens" (I see a lot of you have moved your timetable back to 2012), but Murray is spot on.

This organization is a train wreck. Period. He is just saying what everyone except the four or five kool aid drinkers that talk theory on this board already knows. This team is an embarrassment.

Just assuming, and it is a big assumption, that all of these "prospects" pan out, they will be so shell shocked by the constant beatings they take each day they will be so downtrodden and discouraged they will be crying to leave.

Don't worry about saving a bandwagon seat for me.....they've got to win me back by proving they are serious. And, along with so many others, what they are doing now is not very convincing.


You completely missed the point of the thread.

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 Post subject: Re: Who the hell is Murray Chass?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 3:14 pm 
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Steve1118 wrote:
Murray is spot on.


Murray is not "spot on" with his assessment of Sean Burnett. Far from it.

We will all soon find out whether Huntington's contract offers to Wilson and Sanchez were "woefully" deficient. Right now, I'd be willing to be some serious cash that the contract offers were pretty close to what Wilson and Sanchez end up accepting. They might get a bit more but not much. No more than $1M/year more than what NH offered. I also wouldn't be shocked if they end up with less.

I will concede that Murray is "spot on" right in his assessment that you can practically field a team of Adam LaRoche, Freddy Sanchez, Jack Wilson, Nyjer Morgan, Nate McLouth, Eric Hinske, Tom Gorzellany, Ian Snell, John Grabow and Sean Burnett. However, I won't give him any points for originality because that is essentially the team that the Bucs fielded for nearly a full baseball season. And, you know what? That team could bearly win 75 games. Those players, under the right circumstances (if the stars align correctly), might win 85 games.

We've seen the results. And the results aren't a winning team. The results were not a division contender, let alone a legitimate playoff team. I suppose that Nutting could have opened up the coffers and re-upped all of these players and pay them a total of over $80M to continue losing. They might even have a remote chance of breaking the streak. But . . . is that really the goal? 82 wins? Or, is the goal to win 90+ games and be a contender?

If so . . . please tell me how trading those players above is contrary to that goal. Or, if you prefer, tell me how keeping those players would have moved the Pirates towards being a contender.

You like to rip everyone for being a so-called "proclaimed expert." That criticism certainly suggests that you know more. So . . . in all seriousness . . . educate us. I've invited it before and it has been met with absolute silence. I invite it again.

Finally, I'll add this. I'm frustrated. Frustrated as hell. My moods during the summer are much better when the Pirates are winning than when they are losing. Yes, I know; its a sickness. But, I acknowledge that it exists and I can't get rid of it. In all seriousness, if you said that I could give up a kidney, that the surgery would go without complications and, as a result, the Pirates would be consistently competitive, I wouldn't think twice about going under the knife. Logical? No. Sick? Yes. Explanation? I have none.

I'd like to suggest that the Pirates could cure all ills by simply saying that they should up payroll to $100M and all would be good. I just don't see that being the answer. And, in no way disrespecting your opinion, I think that the argument of "spend more money" is too easy. To win, will they need to spend more money? Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. But, I think that there is a timing component to it as well. I don't see paying Adam LaRoche a ton of money just because he's the first baseman. If the team is not a contender, you can slot Steve Pearce at first base, see if he can cut it and not tie yourself to LaRoche for the long term.

Why do I think that the Bucs will spend when necessary? I don't know. But, if it is true that a winner will bring more TV revenue, larger crowds and more $$, then why wouldn't they spend when necessary? McClatchy did it with Ramirez, Giles, Kendall, Young, Meares and Benson and it was a failure. This team is poised to have solid contributors at a number of positions. At that point, you fill in the blanks and open up the pocket books. At least that is how you do it in my opinion.

And, based simply upon perception, that is how the Twins do it. That is the best model that I can think of for the Pirates to emulate. And, when Littlefield was fired, the cupboard was bare. The Pirates simply cannot hope to rebuild like the Yankees, Red Sox or Angels. Painful? Absolutely. But necessary? Yeah . . . at least in my opinion.

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 Post subject: Re: Who the hell is Murray Chass?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 3:15 pm 
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I'm just glad you beat someone else to the punch on this one....Bully!! However, you can expect this thread to be stolen any minute.


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 Post subject: Re: Who the hell is Murray Chass?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 3:24 pm 
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Who the hell cares what Murray Chass says? All these armchair GM's are drivin' me nuts. What else was we supposed to do? Keep paying mediocre players to churn out 75 wins a season? It had to be blown up, so now we get long looks at players for next season. Some have already lost their spot in line, while others have taken advantage of the opportunity. In the back of everone's mind was the thought that it was going to get much worse before it got better. We all knew that, maybe didn't want to admit it, but that's the way things go. I still haven't lost faith. I still support this team 100% regardless of what the light-weights that have already abondoned post have to say. This is what being a die-hard fan is all about. Thank god I'm not a Cubs fan, talk about a lifetime of futility, at least I have seen a championship.


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 Post subject: Re: Who the hell is Murray Chass?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 3:25 pm 
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I thought the point was to comment on the article.

I agree with most of what he said, but the offers to Wilson and Sanchez were at or near market value, or so I believe.

The major league team is in miserable shape, obviously, but the judgement on the organization is not so clear. They have increased their spending on the draft, and on international signings, and on scouting and development. Those were good moves, but they do not guarantee success.

They are sitting on some extra millions, but I don't think it's a huge pile. We'll have to see what they do with it.


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 Post subject: Re: Who the hell is Murray Chass?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 3:37 pm 
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Who is Murray Chass and why should I care?

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Who the hell is Murray Chass?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 3:48 pm 
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Quote:
A long-time baseball writer for The New York Times, Murray Chass began covering baseball with the Associated Press in Pittsburgh. Games 6 and 7 of the 1960 World Series were the first games he covered, and they marked the end of his status as a Pirates fan. Rooting and writing don’t mix, he decided early on.

He had been a huge Pirates fan in his earlier years, spending one teen-age summer watching 50 games from the left field bleachers at Forbes Field for a dollar a game. There has never been a better summer.

Some games he couldn’t watch in person. He sat in the Pitt News (student newspaper) office at the University of Pittsburgh on a May night in 1959 and listened to Harvey Haddix retire 36 consecutive batters in Milwaukee before he lost his perfect game in the 13th inning. He graduated from Pitt in 1960, began working for the AP that year and moved to the news agency’s New York sports department in December 1963. Six years later, he was writing about baseball for the Times, and during the 1970 season he began covering the Yankees.


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In January 2004 he switched from reporting baseball news to writing baseball columns, writing from two to five columns a week.

In December 2003 the Baseball Writers Association of America voted him the J.G. Taylor Spink award for his baseball coverage; the award put him into the writers’ wing of the Hall of Fame in Cooperstown, New York, the following summer. A month before winning the Spink award he was inducted into the Western Pennsylvania Jewish Sports Hall of Fame in Pittsburgh.

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I say keep the $50 and ban him anyway...

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 Post subject: Re: Who the hell is Murray Chass?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 4:58 pm 
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Ah, so he is a hater!

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Who the hell is Murray Chass?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 5:19 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
Finally, I'll add this. I'm frustrated. Frustrated as hell. My moods during the summer are much better when the Pirates are winning than when they are losing. Yes, I know; its a sickness. But, I acknowledge that it exists and I can't get rid of it. In all seriousness, if you said that I could give up a kidney, that the surgery would go without complications and, as a result, the Pirates would be consistently competitive, I wouldn't think twice about going under the knife. Logical? No. Sick? Yes. Explanation? I have none.


Now that is emotion...that is love!

There you have it. The reason why knowing year after year there is a crap team to be a fan and you know it...yet still cant let go. I have the original poster on foe, but whatever was posted must have been bashing the Pirates and struck a nerve.
Love is a two way street. As stated, deep down, I'm a Pirate fan. Like a family member, they are part of our fabric but there is such a thing as tough love and if you want to keep being frustrated, having mood swings which have to be bad when being a fan of this disgrace and when logic can not over take common sense, accept that you are going to be sick and love overides logic.

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 Post subject: Re: Who the hell is Murray Chass?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 12:34 pm 
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The $20 million number is pure fiction. You can come up with that figure only when you take the naivest of all approaches to analyzing payroll (i.e., adding up the 2009 salaries of the 25 guys on the major league roster at the end of August). It doesn't account for signing bonuses, prorated or otherwise.

I just did ten minutes worth of analysis on the Pirates 40 man roster and, by my estimation, the team payed out about $50 million in salary this year and an additional 9.5 million in bonuses. This includes the Alvarez bonus but no other draft pick bonuses since they did not impact the 40 man. It also includes partial salaries for all players traded, which includes all but 250K of both the Wilson and Snell salaries for this year and all but 350K of Hinske's.

Outside of the 40 man, the Pirates spent about 8.9 million in bonus money on the 2009 draft class. So that puts the amount spent on players during 2009 up to about 69.4 million. This doesn't include any money spent on international signings.

None of this is to say that the Pirates are making smart moves or not. Only time will tell. But to say that they are only spending $20 million on payroll while receiving $40 million on revenue sharing is shoddy reporting at best.


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 Post subject: Re: Who the hell is Murray Chass?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 1:30 pm 
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Thank You Burghermeister!!

I'm so tired of all these people who pretend to have "inside information" that Nutting has turned the Pirates into a profit machine. I hope he has, for that matter.


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 Post subject: Re: Who the hell is Murray Chass?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 4:01 pm 
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burghermeister wrote:
The $20 million number is pure fiction. You can come up with that figure only when you take the naivest of all approaches to analyzing payroll (i.e., adding up the 2009 salaries of the 25 guys on the major league roster at the end of August). It doesn't account for signing bonuses, prorated or otherwise.

I just did ten minutes worth of analysis on the Pirates 40 man roster and, by my estimation, the team payed out about $50 million in salary this year and an additional 9.5 million in bonuses. This includes the Alvarez bonus but no other draft pick bonuses since they did not impact the 40 man. It also includes partial salaries for all players traded, which includes all but 250K of both the Wilson and Snell salaries for this year and all but 350K of Hinske's.

Outside of the 40 man, the Pirates spent about 8.9 million in bonus money on the 2009 draft class. So that puts the amount spent on players during 2009 up to about 69.4 million. This doesn't include any money spent on international signings.

None of this is to say that the Pirates are making smart moves or not. Only time will tell. But to say that they are only spending $20 million on payroll while receiving $40 million on revenue sharing is shoddy reporting at best.

Not only that, but the view that Andrew McCutchen is equivalent to Nyjer Morgan (implied from the notion that the Bucs could trade McCutchen because they already traded Morgan) is pants-on-head retarded. Like Charlie said at Bucs Dugout, a journalist that views McCutchen as equivalent to Morgan is like a jewler that can't tell the difference between diamond and cubic zirconia.

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 Post subject: Re: Who the hell is Murray Chass?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 4:56 pm 
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Piratefan13 wrote:
I'm so tired of all these people who pretend to have "inside information" that Nutting has turned the Pirates into a profit machine. I hope he has, for that matter.


...and you have info prentending they dont? Forbes comes out every year with every teams profits/loss reports. Not saying that that are 100% right, but they're not off by much and are fairly credible.
They are making millions providing a sub standard product with help with MLB's welfare system...that is a fact!

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 Post subject: Re: Who the hell is Murray Chass?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 5:38 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Ah, so he is a hater!

ZM


He's been covering the New York teams for so long he has no sense of rebuilding and doesnt see the plan...Its a matter of waiting and seeing if the plan works now, but is the right direction to go...similar to how the Steelers have done it

As for Estrago, he's scum and ignore him...let him rant and rave...ignore and dont read...

If this plan works and Neal and Frank and Nutting are correct and build a contender I'd like to see an apology from him and his kind who have associated this management group in with all the other losing...

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 Post subject: Re: Who the hell is Murray Chass?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 11:01 am 
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http://community.post-gazette.com/blogs ... x#comments

read the comments after the article....a little different than some of the ideas in here

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 Post subject: Re: Who the hell is Murray Chass?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 1:15 pm 
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estrago agreed with the plan to trade the established players for high-end prospects. He likes the acquisition of Alderson. He concurs with the plan of blowing up the mediocrity that was the talent level before this season. He agrees with the full-blown rebuilding mode. He likes the drafting of and signing of Alvarez, and serious prospects like Grossman, Miller, Von Rosenberg, Stevenson, Cain, etc.

Moreover, estrago has stated that his final judgment as to the rebuilding plan will depend on whether or not the owners are going to spend the money to keep the big-time talent - McCutchen, Alvarez, etc. - on the team. He believes that ownership will not spend the money to do so, but that remains to be seen.

In other words, as far as I understand his position, estrago generally supports the adminstration's current approach (add talent up and down the system, add high-end talent), but is miffed at what he thinks may happen in the future.

Uhh, okay.


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 Post subject: Re: Who the hell is Murray Chass?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 2:15 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
estrago agreed with the plan to trade the established players for high-end prospects. He likes the acquisition of Alderson. He concurs with the plan of blowing up the mediocrity that was the talent level before this season. He agrees with the full-blown rebuilding mode. He likes the drafting of and signing of Alvarez, and serious prospects like Grossman, Miller, Von Rosenberg, Stevenson, Cain, etc.

Moreover, estrago has stated that his final judgment as to the rebuilding plan will depend on whether or not the owners are going to spend the money to keep the big-time talent - McCutchen, Alvarez, etc. - on the team. He believes that ownership will not spend the money to do so, but that remains to be seen.

In other words, as far as I understand his position, estrago generally supports the adminstration's current approach (add talent up and down the system, add high-end talent), but is miffed at what he thinks may happen in the future.

Uhh, okay.


Estrago needs to quit drinking the kool aid! Quit being such an apologist, estrago!!! I you need someone to blindly follow your inept org, call BH!!!


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