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 Post subject: Scott Kazmir Dealt to the Angels
PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 6:01 pm 
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The Los Angeles Angels did more than just upgrade their unsteady rotation. They added a two-time All-Star who’s only 25 years old.

Scott Kazmir was traded from the Tampa Bay Rays to the AL West leaders Friday night, a major move for a high-scoring team that already had World Series aspirations.

The Angels landed Kazmir for two minor leaguers and a player to be named. The hard-throwing lefty was 8-7 with a 5.92 ERA this season for the defending AL champions.

“I’m going to a quality organization that is in the race every year,” Kazmir said. “That’s something to look forward to, but I don’t think it will hit me until I fly out there.”

Tampa Bay receives left-hander Alex Torres and third baseman Matt Sweeney in the deal.

“We’re very excited about the player that we can’t name yet, but also about the other two,” Rays manager Joe Maddon said. “The lefty has a great arm, and Sweeney is one of the best hitters in the minors.”


http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=A ... &type=lgns

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 Post subject: Re: Scott Kazmir Dealt to the Angels
PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 1:08 am 
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This was a curious trade, considering Tampa's position in th WC race. However, the player to be named later may well make this a classic. Anyone have any thoughts on who it might be?

(By the way, i know Scott has had a soft season, but this is still interesting...)

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 Post subject: Re: Scott Kazmir Dealt to the Angels
PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 1:21 am 
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It is odd. Kazmir is only 25 years old and prior to this year had 4 above average to great seasons. He has had some injury issues, but a young, lefty, K-machine like him is a hot commodity not a piece to trade away while you are in the middle of a pennant chase!


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 Post subject: Re: Scott Kazmir Dealt to the Angels
PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 9:26 am 
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Salary dump. What cheap ownership they must have!

:roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Scott Kazmir Dealt to the Angels
PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 11:28 am 
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Nutting wants money!!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Scott Kazmir Dealt to the Angels
PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 12:13 pm 
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If people still don't think there is a problem with baseball after this trade... We complain about it with our ball club, but this was clearly a salary dump. They got rid of a 25 yr. old K machine(albeit having an injury plagued season) in the middle of a pennant race so they'd have "financial flexibility". Wow(that's my wow not Carl Crawford's). When you look at how many teams are dumping salary it makes you wonder what the owners are thinking. And I don't even consider the Pirates on that list because I don't think that is what motivated their trades. Too much of the have vs have nots in baseball...

And did it send a Bobby Hill like chill up anyone else's back when you read/heard Joe Madden state that fans would really love the player to be named later.... :shock:


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 Post subject: Re: Scott Kazmir Dealt to the Angels
PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 1:16 pm 
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PirateParrot wrote:
If people still don't think there is a problem with baseball after this trade... We complain about it with our ball club, but this was clearly a salary dump. They got rid of a 25 yr. old K machine(albeit having an injury plagued season) in the middle of a pennant race so they'd have "financial flexibility". Wow(that's my wow not Carl Crawford's). When you look at how many teams are dumping salary it makes you wonder what the owners are thinking. And I don't even consider the Pirates on that list because I don't think that is what motivated their trades. Too much of the have vs have nots in baseball...

And did it send a Bobby Hill like chill up anyone else's back when you read/heard Joe Madden state that fans would really love the player to be named later.... :shock:


I wonder if it's Todd Zeile? Tampa and Pittsburgh are the only two teams he never played for...haha

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 Post subject: Re: Scott Kazmir Dealt to the Angels
PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 8:41 pm 
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PirateParrot wrote:
If people still don't think there is a problem with baseball after this trade... We complain about it with our ball club, but this was clearly a salary dump. They got rid of a 25 yr. old K machine(albeit having an injury plagued season) in the middle of a pennant race so they'd have "financial flexibility". Wow(that's my wow not Carl Crawford's). When you look at how many teams are dumping salary it makes you wonder what the owners are thinking. And I don't even consider the Pirates on that list because I don't think that is what motivated their trades. Too much of the have vs have nots in baseball...

And did it send a Bobby Hill like chill up anyone else's back when you read/heard Joe Madden state that fans would really love the player to be named later.... :shock:

Do you know anything at all about the abilities of the guys the Ray got in return?

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 Post subject: Re: Scott Kazmir Dealt to the Angels
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 6:57 pm 
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To Bring this back up...

Interesting note in SI. Joe Sheehan says the trade was not so much a salary dump as an acknowledgement that Kazmir is not one of the 5 best starters on the Rays.

"... his ERA at weeks end was 5.92 and he had given up more than four walks per nine innings for the second straight season, a sure sign that he doesn't have command of the strike zone." Sheehan goes on... " A lack of endurance, his high-effort delivery and nagging injuries mean the lefthander has thrown 200 innings just once in his five full seasons. Right hander Wade Davis... is a better pitcher right now, at any price. This was a baseball decision that makes the Rays better immediately."

Welp, no more love for Kazmir.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Scott Kazmir Dealt to the Angels
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 8:00 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
To Bring this back up...

Interesting note in SI. Joe Sheehan says the trade was not so much a salary dump as an acknowledgement that Kazmir is not one of the 5 best starters on the Rays.

"... his ERA at weeks end was 5.92 and he had given up more than four walks per nine innings for the second straight season, a sure sign that he doesn't have command of the strike zone." Sheehan goes on... " A lack of endurance, his high-effort delivery and nagging injuries mean the lefthander has thrown 200 innings just once in his five full seasons. Right hander Wade Davis... is a better pitcher right now, at any price. This was a baseball decision that makes the Rays better immediately."

Welp, no more love for Kazmir.

ZM


If you believe that I have some great swamp land for ya...

Same pitcher with the same delivery, etc that they signed to an extension just last season. Now he is garbage?? Not like it was an Ian Snell situation. I'm sorry, but a team that was in the wild card race trading one of it's better pitchers(former strikeout leader) to call up a minor leaguer and watch a guy like Andy Sonnanstine pitch isn't doing it to make the team better. I'm not buying that at all. Not sure what message that sends the fans...or the players either for that fact.


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 Post subject: Re: Scott Kazmir Dealt to the Angels
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 10:52 pm 
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PirateParrot wrote:
ZelieMike wrote:
To Bring this back up...

Interesting note in SI. Joe Sheehan says the trade was not so much a salary dump as an acknowledgement that Kazmir is not one of the 5 best starters on the Rays.

"... his ERA at weeks end was 5.92 and he had given up more than four walks per nine innings for the second straight season, a sure sign that he doesn't have command of the strike zone." Sheehan goes on... " A lack of endurance, his high-effort delivery and nagging injuries mean the lefthander has thrown 200 innings just once in his five full seasons. Right hander Wade Davis... is a better pitcher right now, at any price. This was a baseball decision that makes the Rays better immediately."

Welp, no more love for Kazmir.

ZM


If you believe that I have some great swamp land for ya...

Same pitcher with the same delivery, etc that they signed to an extension just last season. Now he is garbage?? Not like it was an Ian Snell situation. I'm sorry, but a team that was in the wild card race trading one of it's better pitchers(former strikeout leader) to call up a minor leaguer and watch a guy like Andy Sonnanstine pitch isn't doing it to make the team better. I'm not buying that at all. Not sure what message that sends the fans...or the players either for that fact.


I'm sure it was a salary dump, but the Rays are loaded with young pitchers.
Hellockson is still in the minors.
Wade Davis just came up.
They didn't need this guy.


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 Post subject: Re: Scott Kazmir Dealt to the Angels
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 12:34 am 
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PirateParrot wrote:
ZelieMike wrote:
To Bring this back up...

Interesting note in SI. Joe Sheehan says the trade was not so much a salary dump as an acknowledgement that Kazmir is not one of the 5 best starters on the Rays.

"... his ERA at weeks end was 5.92 and he had given up more than four walks per nine innings for the second straight season, a sure sign that he doesn't have command of the strike zone." Sheehan goes on... " A lack of endurance, his high-effort delivery and nagging injuries mean the lefthander has thrown 200 innings just once in his five full seasons. Right hander Wade Davis... is a better pitcher right now, at any price. This was a baseball decision that makes the Rays better immediately."

Welp, no more love for Kazmir.

ZM


If you believe that I have some great swamp land for ya...

Same pitcher with the same delivery, etc that they signed to an extension just last season. Now he is garbage?? Not like it was an Ian Snell situation. I'm sorry, but a team that was in the wild card race trading one of it's better pitchers(former strikeout leader) to call up a minor leaguer and watch a guy like Andy Sonnanstine pitch isn't doing it to make the team better. I'm not buying that at all. Not sure what message that sends the fans...or the players either for that fact.

Do you dispute the facts cited, i.e. the 5.92 ERA, the 4 BB/9 for two straight seasons, the high-effort delivery, the nagging injuries? If not, then I don't see how you can still view Kazmir as one of their better pitchers, especially when they have James Shields, Matt Garza, Jeff Niemann, David Price, and Wade Davis in their organization.

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 Post subject: Re: Scott Kazmir Dealt to the Angels
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 3:35 am 
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Willton wrote:
Do you dispute the facts cited, i.e. the 5.92 ERA, the 4 BB/9 for two straight seasons, the high-effort delivery, the nagging injuries? If not, then I don't see how you can still view Kazmir as one of their better pitchers, especially when they have James Shields, Matt Garza, Jeff Niemann, David Price, and Wade Davis in their organization.


Like I said, same pitcher with the same profile a year ago and they thought enough of him to sign him to a high priced three year extension. He led the league in K's just two years ago. Many scouts, despite his delivery and small stature, view him as a staff ace some day. Keep in mind also he is still very young. And the biggest thing is the team admitted the deal gives them *gulp* financial flexibility. Performance-wise he had just started to settle in after a bad start. He is better than Shields and Niemann(although there is definite upside here) and Davis had never pitched in the big leagues before. You don't do this in the middle of a pennant chase. It's a salary dump, plain and simple. Yes, one done because there were guys in the organization that can replace him...in the future, not in the middle of a pennant chase.

However that 4 star bullpen they have makes/made this argument a moot point. They were out of the race in the amount of time it takes for a Matt Capps pitch to leave the yard.


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 Post subject: Re: Scott Kazmir Dealt to the Angels
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 8:01 am 
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PirateParrot wrote:
Like I said, same pitcher with the same profile a year ago and they thought enough of him to sign him to a high priced three year extension. He led the league in K's just two years ago. Many scouts, despite his delivery and small stature, view him as a staff ace some day. .


Yep, same pitcher, same profile, same delivery, same high ERA, same high walk rate, same injury-prone status.

I, personally, have not seen why everyone thinks so highly of him. So scouts think he has "ace" type stuff. Lots of guys do. Heck, Jonny VanB has "ace" like stuff. Couldn't do much with it though.

I always thought Kazmir was a nice pitcher. He'll have a MLB career. But, it is very conceivable that he was passed up in the Rays organization by better pitchers. If so, then one does not hold onto that type of contract.

I don't see how a contract is justification for keeping a player, other than to cover the GM's ass. Covering ass is what got us 17 years of losing.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Scott Kazmir Dealt to the Angels
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 12:02 pm 
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Not to dredge up old issues but I really see this as an offshoot of the post that I brought out about changing one's mind.

Was Kazmir's trade influenced by his performance? Undoubtedly.
Was Kazmir's trade influenced by the size of his contract? Undoubtedly.
Did the Rays think when they signed him to a big contract that it was the right move? Undoubtedly.
Had circumstances changed from the time that they signed him to the big contract to the time of the trade? Undoubtedly.

So . . . was it a "salary dump?" Was it a move to "create financial flexibility?" Its no different than trying to label someone as a "right wing nut job" or a "leftist commie pinko."

Teams like the Rays (and the Pirates) can't afford big contract mistakes. I'm not saying that Kazmir was a big contract "mistake" but when the Rays are loaded with pitching prospects and they have a higher priced pitcher underperforming, it absolutely makes sense to try to unload him to a team that can take a chance - like the Angels - without worrying about the financial ramifications if Kazmir doesn't return to "form" (whatever that means).

So, yes, money was a factor. Does that make it a "salary dump?" Yes . . . it lessened the payroll burden of the Rays. Did it create "financial flexibility?" Yes . . . the Rays can presumably use the money that they were paying Kazmir to keep another player or pay a free agent and their pitching presumably will not be worse than what Kazmir was doing on the field.

The economics of baseball mandate that GMs in low media revenue markets to constantly re-evaluate their roster and make decisions based upon what is happening "now" as opposed to when a contract may have been signed. Just because you sign a player to a long term contract doesn't mean that it is a dumb move to trade that player later; particularly if you have talent coming up the system and that big $$ player is underperforming. The Rays (and the Pirates) simply don't have the media revenue streams to make up for those kind of mistakes nor can they afford to sit around and wait a year or two to see if the player will revert to "form."

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 Post subject: Re: Scott Kazmir Dealt to the Angels
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 1:10 pm 
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If Kazmir does not have a dip in performance, it is probably seen as a good signing. If he returns to form with the Angels they make a good move. It can be seen from many angles, both positive and negative.


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 Post subject: Re: Scott Kazmir Dealt to the Angels
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 3:01 pm 
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Well one thing is for sure...

Joe Sheehan must be a Nazi-commie-pinko-fascist shill for the Rays...

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Scott Kazmir Dealt to the Angels
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 7:09 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Well one thing is for sure...

Joe Sheehan must be a Nazi-commie-pinko-fascist shill for the Rays...

ZM

Which is funny, because he's a self-professed Yankee fan who lives in Los Angeles.

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 Post subject: Re: Scott Kazmir Dealt to the Angels
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 8:28 pm 
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PirateParrot wrote:
Willton wrote:
Do you dispute the facts cited, i.e. the 5.92 ERA, the 4 BB/9 for two straight seasons, the high-effort delivery, the nagging injuries? If not, then I don't see how you can still view Kazmir as one of their better pitchers, especially when they have James Shields, Matt Garza, Jeff Niemann, David Price, and Wade Davis in their organization.


Like I said, same pitcher with the same profile a year ago and they thought enough of him to sign him to a high priced three year extension. He led the league in K's just two years ago. Many scouts, despite his delivery and small stature, view him as a staff ace some day. Keep in mind also he is still very young. And the biggest thing is the team admitted the deal gives them *gulp* financial flexibility. Performance-wise he had just started to settle in after a bad start. He is better than Shields and Niemann(although there is definite upside here) and Davis had never pitched in the big leagues before. You don't do this in the middle of a pennant chase. It's a salary dump, plain and simple. Yes, one done because there were guys in the organization that can replace him...in the future, not in the middle of a pennant chase.

However that 4 star bullpen they have makes/made this argument a moot point. They were out of the race in the amount of time it takes for a Matt Capps pitch to leave the yard.

As I asked before, do you know anything at all about the abilities of the guys they got in return for Kazmir?

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 Post subject: Re: Scott Kazmir Dealt to the Angels
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 1:27 am 
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sisyphus wrote:
As I asked before, do you know anything at all about the abilities of the guys they got in return for Kazmir?


Nope. The scouting report on those guys they faxed me got lost somewhere...sorry. :roll:

My point on this was that they traded one fifth of their rotation, who was the AL strikeout leader two years ago. A guy who most, including themselves since they just re-upped his contract, consider a top end starter, granted with some injury concerns(like a lot of pitchers). IN THE MIDDLE OF A PENNANT CHASE. The Rays management acknowledged the move gave them financial flexibility. For the point I was trying to make, I don't care who they got back in the deal. Maybe they are future stars, but when I hear the manager say fans will really like the player to be named later I get Bobby Hill chills running up my spine.

I understand they like their young pitchers coming through the high end of their system. I understand they are a small market who has to constantly evaluate contract situations(which is still baseball's biggest problem). But with a chance to win, and coming off of a World Series appearance to make this move?? Plus Kazmir had just strung together some good starts and was looking stronger. They left their playoff hopes in the hands of Andy Sonnanstine and Wade Davis, who probably will be very good one day.

If they come back next year and win, which they very well could, and especially if Kazmir breaks down in Anaheim then they look very smart. But at the time of the move, IN MY OPINION, they were telling their fans they were more concerned with finances than making a push for the playoffs and maintaining their momentum off of last year.

And my main point in all of this was that it's a shame baseball is like this....it really beats down my enthusiasm for the game.


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