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 Post subject: Re: Tonight's game versus the Phillies
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:49 pm 
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bucco boy wrote:
Did anyone else cringe when they saw Matt Capps enter this game? The Phillies have this one won.


I didnt cringe when he came in, I cringed that he was praying before the inning started...

Geez, even God cant help Matt Capps get through the 9th inning without giving up a run...

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 Post subject: Re: Tonight's game versus the Phillies
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:21 pm 
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nad69dan wrote:
Geez, even God cant help Matt Capps get through the 9th inning without giving up a run...


Maybe somebody needs to shoot Capps this link?

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Jobu/60235913428?_fb_noscript=1


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 Post subject: Re: Tonight's game versus the Phillies
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:32 pm 
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Did the Philly pitcher (Blanton) officially get ejected for his tantrum?

J


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 Post subject: Re: Tonight's game versus the Phillies
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:37 pm 
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Gotta say I like the 94 mph bean throwing Capps better than this version. I don't care how flat he was/is. With the pinpoint control he had, he was efficient and deadly. I like a closer who comes in challenging hitters, not the version that is trying out his 83 mph slider/change on the hands... ooops.. in the bleachers... pitches.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Tonight's game versus the Phillies
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:42 pm 
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Substitute2 wrote:
Part of the problem is that when fans give up on a player, any situation where he can be held wrong, odds are he will be held wrong. Ask yourself, if Cutch had done the same type thing, would he recieve this scrutiny? Yes, he should have been more aware after reaching third, but in truth Cutch should have not charged in on that liner over his head either but there is no discussion of his culpability.


Sub -
I couldn't disagree with you more on this. This has nothing to do with McCutchen being a "coveted child" while Bixler being treated as the "ugly redheaded stepchild."

Bixler did not make an aggressive turn at third. In light of the hard hit by Moss, Bixler's job at that time in the game is to make sure to draw a throw towards home. If the throw is off, he might score. If the ball gets by the catcher and Lidge isn't backing up the play, he might score. If the throw is not cut off, perhaps Moss advances to second base. By choosing to take a casual turn around third base, he actually played into the Phillies' hands. The RFer could have simply fired the ball back into the infield. There is no downside (none!) to taking an aggressive turn. There is no way that he would be thrown out at third base for taking such a turn. This was not a tough play and did not involve a judgment call. It is straight forward, fundamental baseball. Bixler is just lucky that the throw was as off-line as it was or he would have been out by a mile. If he had played it as he should, he would have scored standing up. Also, Bixler has a history of "brain farts" running the bases.

As for McCutchen, the laser hit over his head is, as noted before, the toughest play for a CFer. A ball hit right at the CFer plays games with the fielder's depth perception. It is incredibly difficult to tell whether the ball is rising, sinking, etc. If McCutchen would have made the catch, we all would have been jumping out of our skins as to the incredible play that he made. You can't say that McCutchen's play in the 9th resulted from a lack of fundamentals.

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Last edited by No. 9 on Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Tonight's game versus the Phillies
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:08 pm 
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McCutchen made a mistake. You may not admit it but he did. Yes, it is a very difficult play and that mistake happens to many CFs but no the less it was a mistake on his part. No, not a lack of fundamentals but a mistake none the less. Why is that so hard for you?

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 Post subject: Re: Tonight's game versus the Phillies
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:28 pm 
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Substitute2 wrote:
McCutchen made a mistake. You may not admit it but he did. Yes, it is a very difficult play and that mistake happens to many CFs but no the less it was a mistake on his part. No, not a lack of fundamentals but a mistake none the less. Why is that so hard for you?


"Hard for me?" :?

I am much more willing to "excuse" or "look past" a physical error than a mental error. Bixler's error was a brain fart, a lack of aggressiveness, a lack of "being in the game." He came in to be a pinch runner. A specialty role. He was in the game to score the tying run. As he led off second base, his only thought should have been to be going as hard as possible to get to third and possibly score. Instead, he made assumptions and was lackadaisical. Given the situation, Bixler's execution was awful. The Phillies should be kicking themselves for letting him get away with it.

If McCutchen made an error, it was physical in nature. He instinctually reacted by taking a step in on a laser beam hit right at him. It was not a mental error on his part. It wasn't because he didn't have his head in the game and it wasn't because of a lack of aggressiveness.

I'm much more willing to give a "pass" to a guy who would have had to make a spectacular play to make an out than to a guy who got lucky.

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Reflexively, obsessively and tastelessly submitted,
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Obsessive proponent of situational bunting and 2 strike hitting approaches, reflexively pro-catchers calling good games and tasteless proponent of the value of a RBI.


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 Post subject: Re: Tonight's game versus the Phillies
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:51 pm 
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Look...the ball Moss hit was a laser. First Bixler had to freeze to make sure the second baseman didn't catch it. At that point there is no way he is going to score. NONE, and you guys know it. After watching it again just a second ago, he went in to third harder than I thought. If there is a fault it may be that he didn't turn to see where the throw(or in this case bobble) was going. I know you guys watch a ton of games, as do I, and he went in to third just like 99% of other guys would have. The ball was smoked...nobody is scoring on that unless a mistake is made. When the mistake was made he proceeded to score. Again if there is fault(and it could be with Beasley too) it was that he took to long to see the play.


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 Post subject: Re: Tonight's game versus the Phillies
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 4:10 pm 
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Again, from the What its Worth department...

Beasley apparently had the ole "run-stop-run" wheel going on.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Tonight's game versus the Phillies
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 4:20 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
Substitute2 wrote:
McCutchen made a mistake. You may not admit it but he did. Yes, it is a very difficult play and that mistake happens to many CFs but no the less it was a mistake on his part. No, not a lack of fundamentals but a mistake none the less. Why is that so hard for you?


"Hard for me?" :?

I am much more willing to "excuse" or "look past" a physical error than a mental error. Bixler's error was a brain fart, a lack of aggressiveness, a lack of "being in the game." He came in to be a pinch runner. A specialty role. He was in the game to score the tying run. As he led off second base, his only thought should have been to be going as hard as possible to get to third and possibly score. Instead, he made assumptions and was lackadaisical. Given the situation, Bixler's execution was awful. The Phillies should be kicking themselves for letting him get away with it.

If McCutchen made an error, it was physical in nature. He instinctually reacted by taking a step in on a laser beam hit right at him. It was not a mental error on his part. It wasn't because he didn't have his head in the game and it wasn't because of a lack of aggressiveness.

I'm much more willing to give a "pass" to a guy who would have had to make a spectacular play to make an out than to a guy who got lucky.


Is giving a "pass" defense of a double standard? If you're the future does a mistake not count? Looks like it.

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2011 Will Be Our Year -- well make that 2012 (just saying) So it looks like 2013 now - how long must this go on!
THIS IS IT-- NO MORE STREAK!!! *** Finally*** Time to win it in 2014


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 Post subject: Re: Tonight's game versus the Phillies
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 4:58 pm 
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Substitute2 wrote:
Is giving a "pass" defense of a double standard? If you're the future does a mistake not count? Looks like it.


No, it simply recognizes that there are certain levels of misplays or mistakes. On the one side, you have "bonehead." On the other side, you have "failed to make an incredibly tough play." And you have lots of grey area in-between. I have a tendency to be far more critical of mental errors as opposed to physical errors. I was always coached that all teams will make physical errors. However, good teams make very few mental errors.

Examples: "Bonehead:" You are the tying run at third base with one out. A fly ball is hit to deep left field. You go half way and fail to tag up and score a run. Conclusion: Bonehead mental error. Delwyn Young's failure to run on contact with the pitcher on deck in the bottom of the second inning last night is a good example.
"Failed to make an incredibly tough play:" Hard grounder up the middle. Shortstop demonstrates incredible range to get to the ball. Sets himself. Throws to first base but the throw is wide and the runner is safe. Good throw might have gotten the runner. Conclusion: Tough play. Mistake on the off-line throw but understandable physical mistake under the circumstances. A number of Jack Wilson's plays fall into this category. Got to the ball with incredible range, was able to set himself but the throw pulled LaRoche off the bag.

IMO . . . Bixler making it a close play at home last night - while maybe not textbook "bonehead" (although I would argue that it was damn close) - was far closer to the "bonehead" end of the spectrum. McCutchen failing to catch the laser, on the other hand, was far closer to the "failed to make an incredibly tough play" end of the spectrum.

If McCutchen - with all of his incredible speed - did not make a strong turn at third last night and made it a close play at home, I'd be on him as well. There is no reason why you don't take an aggressive turn at third. I don't care if the chances of scoring are 0.00001%. You have to draw the throw. It places the burden on the defense to make a solid play and opens the door to allowing Moss to advance to second if they don't execute.

I'd also point out my original post on page 1 of this thread which pointed out mistakes by (1) Garrett Jones; (2) Steve Pearce; and (3) Delwyn Young. FWIW, I am hoping upon hope that Garrett Jones succeeds and can be a productive player. If I had a "favorite" player (ie; a player that I am pulling for more than any other player) it would be Jones. Yet, he looked awful in his first at-bat and, even though the called third strike was borderline, he has to be swinging away at any close pitches with 2 strikes.

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 Post subject: Re: Tonight's game versus the Phillies
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:29 pm 
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PirateParrot wrote:
Look...the ball Moss hit was a laser. First Bixler had to freeze to make sure the second baseman didn't catch it. At that point there is no way he is going to score. NONE, and you guys know it. After watching it again just a second ago, he went in to third harder than I thought. If there is a fault it may be that he didn't turn to see where the throw(or in this case bobble) was going. I know you guys watch a ton of games, as do I, and he went in to third just like 99% of other guys would have. The ball was smoked...nobody is scoring on that unless a mistake is made. When the mistake was made he proceeded to score. Again if there is fault(and it could be with Beasley too) it was that he took to long to see the play.


It goes beyond "assuming" that he wouldn't likely score. He has to draw the throw. He has to make Werth execute a strong throw that hits either the cut off man or the catcher. He has to at least open the door to Moss advancing on a mistake by the Phillies. I disagree that 99% of other guys would have done the same thing. Maybe Adam LaRoche, maybe Randall Simon, maybe Manny Ramirez. Certainly not Jack Wilson or Freddy Sanchez. The Angels and the Cardinals take any base that they can get and try to force mistakes all the time.

Just watched the archived Phillies broadcast on MLB.TV and they focus on Bixler after McCutchen takes the first pitch from Lidge for a ball. Bixler is clearly slowing up as he goes into third base and does not take an aggressive turn. He is actually coasting into third base and looking back at the field - as he initially touches the bag.

Believe me . . . fault also lies with Beasley. He has to position himself in such a fashion where he is giving the "go" sign until he sees Werth make the throw. I'm surmising that, because it was a strange drop by Werth - he fielded it cleanly and simply lost control when he tried to transition the ball from glove to throwing hand - that Beasley put up the stop sign when Werth fielded the ball and came up ready to throw. However, given that Werth, dropped the ball, slipped to his knees, struggled to get back to the ball . . . an aggressive base turn by Bixler and he would have coasted home. Instead, he got lucky when Werth's throw sucked.

And, FWIW, the pain in the Phillies' announcers' voices is fun listening.

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Obsessive proponent of situational bunting and 2 strike hitting approaches, reflexively pro-catchers calling good games and tasteless proponent of the value of a RBI.


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 Post subject: Re: Tonight's game versus the Phillies
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:32 pm 
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Substitute2 wrote:
If you're the future does a mistake not count? Looks like it.


Sub -
FWIW, on the replay . . . McCutchen went into home plate doing a Michael Jordan imitation, jumping to the moon and looking like he was going to slam dunk his helmet. The chances of seriously screwing up your ankle are pretty high in that situation. I love the enthusiasm but think that he should stay on the ground. The last thing the Bucs need is a Martin Gramatica-type celebration injury.

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Reflexively, obsessively and tastelessly submitted,
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Obsessive proponent of situational bunting and 2 strike hitting approaches, reflexively pro-catchers calling good games and tasteless proponent of the value of a RBI.


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 Post subject: Re: Tonight's game versus the Phillies
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:32 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
There is no reason why you don't take an aggressive turn at third. I don't care if the chances of scoring are 0.00001%. You have to draw the throw. It places the burden on the defense to make a solid play and opens the door to allowing Moss to advance to second if they don't execute.



But there was not going to be a throw. The ball was hit too hard. Everyone in the stadium knew there wouldn't be a play/throw at the plate. Werth would have just lobbed the ball in to second or the cut off man perhaps. These types of plays happen a hundred times a season. The reason there was a play at the plate is because he bobbled the ball. Bixler froze for a second(rightfully so) to make sure the second baseman didn't catch the ball on the fly. That coupled with how hard the ball was hit allowed Bixler to "coast" in to third. And if you watch it again, he wasn't exactly coasting. He appeared to be running hard. As ZM said, it may have been Beasley who was stopping him(again rightfully so) and then the bobble happened. As I stated in earlier posts, the only fault that you may find with the play is that Bixler/Beasley didn't recognize the bobble as quickly as they could have.

I'm certainly not trying to defend Bixler. I just think you guys have it wrong on this particular play.


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 Post subject: Re: Tonight's game versus the Phillies
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:48 pm 
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I am rooting for Jones bigtime too. He could be a power option which we desperately need. He got sucked into swinging at bad changeups, actually killer changes on his first three at bats.


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 Post subject: Re: Tonight's game versus the Phillies
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:17 pm 
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PirateParrot wrote:
But there was not going to be a throw. The ball was hit too hard. Everyone in the stadium knew there wouldn't be a play/throw at the plate. Werth would have just lobbed the ball in to second or the cut off man perhaps.


Again, I disagree. Watch Werth again. He aggressively charges the ball and fields the ball to the side of his body. That is how OFers are taught to field the ball to position themself to make a strong throw. Werth was also coming up throwing. If he thought that there was no chance for a play at the plate, he would have fielded the ball in front of his body - with both hands - and lobbed the ball back in the infield. Werth was playing the hit as if there was going to be a play at the plate.

Indeed, the reason why Werth made the error was because of his aggressive approach. Had he simply fielded the ball and went to lob it in, Bixler would not have scored. Instead, he lost the grip on the transition from glove to throwing hand. Had Werth known that Bixler had essentially "mailed it in" and wasn't even going to force a throw, he wouldn't have been as aggressive.

As for "everyone in the stadium knowing that there wouldn't be a play," how many times have you seen a runner on third fake a tagup on a relatively short fly ball simply to force a good throw. Happens all the time.

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Obsessive proponent of situational bunting and 2 strike hitting approaches, reflexively pro-catchers calling good games and tasteless proponent of the value of a RBI.


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 Post subject: Re: Tonight's game versus the Phillies
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:23 pm 
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Werth made a physical mistake. The way Bixler ran the bases if Werth makes a clean play, he is dead at the plate. It was a little league play all the way around. We were fortunate. Bottom line is though if we score any of those runners the first 3 innings, it is a completely different game. We might not have had to endure Capps at all.


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