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 Post subject: The current state
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 10:45 am 
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"It's sad," Moreno said. "I remember playing in Pittsburgh those years, and everything was different. We were winners. The children here had players they knew, they loved. Money has changed the game a lot, you know."

Ott spoke of money, too, specifically as it relates to the Pirates' commitment to keeping players.

"You'd like to say there's a light at the end of the tunnel here, especially those of us who have been part of this. But you don't know, and it hurts a little bit," Ott said. "I know the price to keep players is high these days. Minimum wage was $16,000 when I was a rookie, and I don't know what it is now."

He was told it is $400,000.

"Wow. Well, there still comes a point where you have to take pride in the ball club, especially with all the revenue sharing in baseball now. You can't just keep moving Jason Bay, Aramis Ramirez and players like that. You have to hold onto them. There's no Willie here. There's no Parker. Until they bring it back to getting those kinds of talents -- and keeping them -- nothing's going to change here."


http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09235/992732-63.stm

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 Post subject: Re: The current state
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 12:35 pm 
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Joe Sheehan wrote:
One of the more arrogant positions I hold is the idea that just because you have or had the talent to be a major league player, it doesn’t necessarily follow that you have the talent to evaluate players. You can extend this to "have the talent to evaluate teams" or any number of ideas that require a grasp of analysis, both skills and statistical. It’s the difference between being an airline pilot and being an airline mechanic—both jobs are critical for keeping a plane in the air, but they’re not interchangeable in any meaningful way, and they require competely different abilities. It’s not an insult to say that a pilot probably couldn’t fix an engine, and it’s not an insult to say a shortstop probably couldn’t run a roster.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/artic ... cleid=9165

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 Post subject: Re: The current state
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 12:46 pm 
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Willton wrote:
Joe Sheehan wrote:
One of the more arrogant positions I hold is the idea that just because you have or had the talent to be a major league player, it doesn’t necessarily follow that you have the talent to evaluate players. You can extend this to "have the talent to evaluate teams" or any number of ideas that require a grasp of analysis, both skills and statistical. It’s the difference between being an airline pilot and being an airline mechanic—both jobs are critical for keeping a plane in the air, but they’re not interchangeable in any meaningful way, and they require competely different abilities. It’s not an insult to say that a pilot probably couldn’t fix an engine, and it’s not an insult to say a shortstop probably couldn’t run a roster.


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 Post subject: Re: The current state
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 1:38 pm 
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Willton wrote:
Joe Sheehan wrote:
One of the more arrogant positions I hold is the idea that just because you have or had the talent to be a major league player, it doesn’t necessarily follow that you have the talent to evaluate players. You can extend this to "have the talent to evaluate teams" or any number of ideas that require a grasp of analysis, both skills and statistical. It’s the difference between being an airline pilot and being an airline mechanic—both jobs are critical for keeping a plane in the air, but they’re not interchangeable in any meaningful way, and they require competely different abilities. It’s not an insult to say that a pilot probably couldn’t fix an engine, and it’s not an insult to say a shortstop probably couldn’t run a roster.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/artic ... cleid=9165


Ouch :D

That's one quick and easy way to deflate a lame trolling attempt


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 Post subject: Re: The current state
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 1:53 pm 
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Where was it stated that Ed Ott was evaluating talent? You dont have to be a baseball expert to know if you have a star player. All Ott was saying is the Pirates need to keep & pay talent(if they ever get it again) if you have it instead of trading it away.

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 Post subject: Re: The current state
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 2:04 pm 
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estrago wrote:
Where was it stated that Ed Ott was evaluating talent? You dont have to be a baseball expert to know if you have a star player. All Ott was saying is the Pirates need to keep & pay talent(if they ever get it again) if you have it instead of trading it away.


We did have it and we did pat for it and when it got past their primes and were ready to paid more than they were worth (Bay) or something better was ready to hit the bigs to replace someone (McLouth/Cutch), they were traded away. Aramis Ramirez is really about as meaningful in the discussion right now in what this CURRENT FO is doing as letting Bonds walk and keeping Van Slyke is. We didn't exactly trade away any young studs, we traded away guys hitting their 30's ready to be paid big money with aging bodies past their primes and ready for the decline or guys like McLouth who were average at best players


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 Post subject: Re: The current state
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 2:19 pm 
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Joe Sheehan is a journalist. He is employed evaluating talent for what MLB team?

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 Post subject: Re: The current state
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 2:39 pm 
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estrago wrote:
Joe Sheehan is a journalist. He is employed evaluating talent for what MLB team?


Wow! You really don't get it, do you?


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 Post subject: Re: The current state
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 2:43 pm 
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Jack Round Tripper wrote:
estrago wrote:
Joe Sheehan is a journalist. He is employed evaluating talent for what MLB team?


Wow! You really don't get it, do you?


Just let him go, its a battle not worth fighting, he's a troll, who is here to bad mouth the Pirates and anyone who likes them...he's an ass

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 Post subject: Re: The current state
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 2:52 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: The current state
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 3:01 pm 
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estrago wrote:
Joe Sheehan is a journalist. He is employed evaluating talent for what MLB team?


What talent did he evaluate?


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 Post subject: Re: The current state
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 3:02 pm 
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LOLOLOL :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: The current state
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 3:22 pm 
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The foe lists works perfectly. More posters should consider using it.

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 Post subject: Re: The current state
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 3:48 pm 
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While Sheehan's point is well taken and fundamentally correct, it simply does NOT follow that ballplayers don't recognize good and bad balllplayers when they see them. It also follows that guys like Sheehan, who have never played, simply may not recognize all the traits that make a ballplayer... that one who does have these traits and recognizes them.

One cannot simply use this as a one-sided arguement.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: The current state
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 3:50 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
While Sheehan's point is well taken and fundamentally correct, it simply does NOT follow that ballplayers don't recognize good and bad balllplayers when they see them. It also follows that guys like Sheehan, who have never played, simply may not recognize all the traits that make a ballplayer... that one who does have these traits and recognizes them.

One cannot simply use this as a one-sided arguement.

ZM


Thank you

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 Post subject: Re: The current state
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 4:26 pm 
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But Ed Ott is advocating a technique that only a few teams follow - pay top dollar for talent. The NYY, NY Mets, Red Sux, Cubs, Dodgers, Angels are those teams really.

So maybe 6-8 teams spend big time $$ for talent. The rest - including the Twins, Rays, Giants, Brewers, A's, etc. - develop young talent. Lots of it. Win with that young talent, then lose a lot of those players in free agency to the higher-revenue teams.

So, it is fundamentally wrong to say that the only way to compete is to pay to keep talented players. The only way to win is to stockpile talented players. Some teams do that by spending hundreds of millions of dollars on free agents and Japanese players, while most do so by drafting and trading for young talent.


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 Post subject: Re: The current state
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 9:47 pm 
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estrago wrote:
Joe Sheehan is a journalist. He is employed evaluating talent for what MLB team?

And which team is paying Ed Ott to run its baseball operations?

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 Post subject: Re: The current state
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 12:04 am 
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estrago wrote:
Where was it stated that Ed Ott was evaluating talent? You dont have to be a baseball expert to know if you have a star player. All Ott was saying is the Pirates need to keep & pay talent(if they ever get it again) if you have it instead of trading it away.

And what I'm saying is that using Ed Ott as some sort of authority on how to build a baseball team is down-right silly. What does Ed Ott know about constructing a baseball team? Why should the Pirates be following his apparently sage advice?

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 Post subject: Re: The current state
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 12:13 am 
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ZelieMike wrote:
While Sheehan's point is well taken and fundamentally correct, it simply does NOT follow that ballplayers don't recognize good and bad balllplayers when they see them. It also follows that guys like Sheehan, who have never played, simply may not recognize all the traits that make a ballplayer... that one who does have these traits and recognizes them.

One cannot simply use this as a one-sided arguement.

ZM

I'm not. I'm merely pointing out that holding up Ott's comments on the state of the team is no better than doing the same with my comments or yours. Ott is not a talent evaluator, and he's not an authority on how to construct a winning baseball team. Just because one was a part of a successful enterprise does not then make one an authority on how to run a successful enterprise. If estrago wants to appeal to an authority to support his position that the Pirates are doing things all wrong, then he should find someone who knows what he's talking about in order to do so.

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 Post subject: Re: The current state
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 12:32 am 
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Substitute2 wrote:
The foe lists works perfectly. More posters should consider using it.



I come to this board for discussion, AND entertainment. The foes list would only take away from the entertainment part.
More people need to post a funny pic or vid when he starts his crying. So fun to poke the bear, without giving him the idea that he is actually getting to you.


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