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 Post subject: Re: Jack to Mariners
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:23 pm 
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(1) As ZM notes, only those who see Wilson's defense, day in and day out, can appreciate it. Pirates pitchers have benefitted greatly from the superior defense on this year's team, Wilson and Sanchez definitely included.

(2) I will miss Jack's defense and occasional hitting. I don't think that Ronny Cedeno is better than Cruz, based upon Cedeno's terrible hitting.

(3) To re-build, the entire organization needs to be overhauled. This tinkering with parts - adding a Burnitz, for example - was not working, has never worked for a team as talent-starved as the Pirates circa December, 2006, and would never work.

Am I happy to see Wilson and, apparently, Sanchez go? Of course not. They played well for the Buccos.

But they are not going to be part of the franchise when McCutchen, Alvarez, Tabata, Lincoln, Morton, etc. are on the field. This is not a remodel by Huntington - it is a demolition and re-build.

Something that was needed 10 years ago, but was not done.


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 Post subject: Re: Jack to Mariners
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:26 pm 
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VERY well said.


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 Post subject: Re: Jack to Mariners
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:29 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
(1) As ZM notes, only those who see Wilson's defense, day in and day out, can appreciate it. Pirates pitchers have benefitted greatly from the superior defense on this year's team, Wilson and Sanchez definitely included.

(2) I will miss Jack's defense and occasional hitting. I don't think that Ronny Cedeno is better than Cruz, based upon Cedeno's terrible hitting.

(3) To re-build, the entire organization needs to be overhauled. This tinkering with parts - adding a Burnitz, for example - was not working, has never worked for a team as talent-starved as the Pirates circa December, 2006, and would never work.

Am I happy to see Wilson and, apparently, Sanchez go? Of course not. They played well for the Buccos.

But they are not going to be part of the franchise when McCutchen, Alvarez, Tabata, Lincoln, Morton, etc. are on the field. This is not a remodel by Huntington - it is a demolition and re-build.

Something that was needed 10 years ago, but was not done.


Cruz seems better to me than Cedeno, but only by looking at Cedeno's numbers. My question is this, with the importance of defense for the Buc pitchers, why not bring up the SS we acquired from Boston?

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 Post subject: Re: Jack to Mariners
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:30 pm 
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http://community.post-gazette.com/blogs ... x#comments

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 Post subject: Re: Jack to Mariners
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:33 pm 
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Because Cedeno is every bit as good defensively, hits a bit better (in the Nat'l league anyway), and is much more consistant at this point in his career... IMO.

That said, both Cruz and Cedeno can provide more than adequate defense and the pitchers will not be hurt much at all in this regard, I believe, though I don't expect to see glove flips from the ground for DP's, or outs from deep LF with this group.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Jack to Mariners
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:36 pm 
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The Smizik link is laughable. The imbecile wrote the story without knowing the facts, and concludes that the trade was done to rid the Pirates of Wilson's and Snell's salaries this year.

Thanks for the royal screw-up, Smizik. You might want to have somebody change your Huggies.


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 Post subject: Re: Jack to Mariners
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:47 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
The Smizik link is laughable. The imbecile wrote the story without knowing the facts, and concludes that the trade was done to rid the Pirates of Wilson's and Snell's salaries this year.

Thanks for the royal screw-up, Smizik. You might want to have somebody change your Huggies.


ROFL at the dude who wrote that this trade was worse than the Aramis Ramirez deal. Wow.


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 Post subject: Re: Jack to Mariners
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:50 pm 
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urbanexplorer wrote:
Bucfan wrote:
The Smizik link is laughable. The imbecile wrote the story without knowing the facts, and concludes that the trade was done to rid the Pirates of Wilson's and Snell's salaries this year.

Thanks for the royal screw-up, Smizik. You might want to have somebody change your Huggies.


ROFL at the dude who wrote that this trade was worse than the Aramis Ramirez deal. Wow.


Heh. BTW, I did a google search and unearthed a picture of Jeff Clement:

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Jack to Mariners
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:17 pm 
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burghermeister wrote:
Heh. BTW, I did a google search and unearthed a picture of Jeff Clement:

Image

burgher ... you are treading on my copyrighted territory here, my friend.


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 Post subject: Re: Jack to Mariners
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:24 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
burghermeister wrote:
Heh. BTW, I did a google search and unearthed a picture of Jeff Clement:

Image

burgher ... you are treading on my copyrighted territory here, my friend.



more mat cain look-alike..

hello happy bucs folks..!! just got home and yes.. i love the trade.. i loved jack, of being jack and a tremendous defensive ss, but he did not make us WIN... read: WIN... Snell is a whiner in every aspect, and even if he pans out in the AL.. I do not care.. what we got back is maybe a lesse defensive SS, but still beter then average and about hitting.. jack had some nice hot-streaks, but that is it... SS will chancge soon enough, just accept Cedeno..
we accepted the short ss "who was his name" as well.. he was gone too soon enough
are we really loosing so much.. BUT what we got back... mark my words.. C.L.E.M.E.N.T. and he will be a bright spott next year..

I like the deal and what we got back..

cheerio... bye jack, i miss you, but there is a time of coming and going

and for Ian... ....................................... empty

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 Post subject: Re: Jack to Mariners
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:50 pm 
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Hate tosee Jack go. The duo of Jack and Freddy HAS won games this year. With an anemic offense their caliber of defense is needed. Ian I could care less. Hewas a head case that we simply didn't need in the clubhouse.

Now being a converted Cubs fan I have seen Ronny play quite a bit. He has great range but the same problem as Aramis did. Throwing wild to first. Now Lee saved both their butts in Chicago, but I'm worried because we don't have that caliber of 1st baseman. Time will tell.

Now we did address one of the problems I stated in a post earlier in the season. We now actually have a couple guys that can man second and short next year while we are building this team. Those are our weakest links. We can always move Ronny to second if we like Cruz better or Young doesn't work out. (Which I believe Young should get the majority of playing time over either of these due to his bat).

Trading Snell and Wilson for Clement, if his bat is as good as advertised, and Cedano, with Jack's contract and Ian's attitude, isn't bad by itself. Getting the 3 pitchers to deepen our farm just puts this trade squarely in the win column for the Pirates.

I'm not sold on a lot of the returns yet, but I do like the direction this team is taking.


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 Post subject: Re: Jack to Mariners
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:51 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
burghermeister wrote:
Heh. BTW, I did a google search and unearthed a picture of Jeff Clement:

Image

burgher ... you are treading on my copyrighted territory here, my friend.


Sorry, Bucfan, I know shouldn't have posted it without your permission but I couldn't help myself. What can I say? I have Message Board Turrets Syndrome!


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 Post subject: Re: Jack to Mariners
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:29 pm 
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On the way home from work this evening, I listened to the post game show for the Mariners. They stopped talking about the game halfway through as Jack was being introduced to the media. Couple of quick highlights...

Jack spoke quite openly about how sad he and his family will be leaving Pittsburgh. "It's the perfect place to raise a family and that is what is important to me."

On being asked what he will bring to the team, he showed his humor. "Power, power, power...I expect to hit 45 HR's!" Of course, he broke into laughter immediately after that statement. He got the rest of the media laughing too.

Asked about his leadership, Jack (only half jokingly) stated that after his third season, he had the longest tenure on the team. He said that leadership doesn't come from age, but respect.

RE: A winner in Pittsburgh: "They'll get there. I am sad I wasn't able to help, but they (the Pittsburgh fans) deserve it. Luckily they have the Steelers and Penguins to ease the pain, but their building towards a 'ring' team."

Interestingly, the last question was interupted by the Director of Media Relations and Jack wasn't allowed to answer. After someone had asked about what type of pitcher Ian Snell is, one reporter asked about the suicide rumors and Snell's mental state. Before Jack could say anything the PR weenie jumped in and said, we have to get Jack on the team plane, sorry.

IMO, listening to the interview, whenever Pittsburgh was brought up you could hear the sadness in his voice. No doubt, Jack is a Pittsburgh guy and I will always cheer for him. I will definitely get to see him more now than with the Bucs, playing for the Mariners. After hearing about the trade, I was congratulating my Mariners buddies on acquiring the most underrated defensive player in the game. Good luck Jack! We'll miss you!


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 Post subject: Re: Jack to Mariners
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:10 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
burghermeister wrote:
Heh. BTW, I did a google search and unearthed a picture of Jeff Clement:

Image

burgher ... you are treading on my copyrighted territory here, my friend.

As the IP expert on this board, I'd say that's pretty fair use. Time to find a new racket, Bucfan.

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 Post subject: Re: Jack to Mariners
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:10 am 
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I've watched and followed the M's the last year, here's what I can say on it:

Cedeno will play short, not great but decent. An adequate replacement for Jack if nothing else.

Clement is good, occasionally. He has flashes of brilliance, really. Just highly inconsistent and was log jammed at positions the M's already had. He never really got his chance. Yes, he is a little 'old' (26), but has shown in the minors what kind of damage he can do.

He was the M's 1st round pick a few years back and has played in the Bigs a couple times. He has Ryan Doumit (and better) potential.

Good move for Burgh, unloaded two contracts and one piece of junk (Snell).

Can't believe Seattle bit on it.

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 Post subject: Re: Jack to Mariners
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 12:29 pm 
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Neil was on WDVE this morning talking about the trades and probably trying to help talk some sense to the ones who were out with pitch forks and torches ready to tear down PNC Park...

Clement is going to work at 1st, and possibly be worked in at catcher in the future...

All this went down and I missed the action...Damn you Stephen Stills!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Jack to Mariners
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 12:31 pm 
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ParrotLuv wrote:
Is it my hopeful thinking?..or is Doumit is doing a much better job behind the plate since he's come back. I don't ever remember him aggressively blocking balls like he's done since his return. And his throwing has been pretty good too. If he's playing better defense..I see no reason to move him to 1B. As good as JJ was playing, I don't think he's quite the offensive threat Ryan is. Hate to see Grabow go..but he's been very hittable (hard) recently and I don't think he's the go to set-up guy at this point.


Doumit might be better...considering while he was hurt he did alot of bullpen catching since he couldnt hit and was with the team for the most part of his injury...maybe it helped some?

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 Post subject: Re: Jack to Mariners
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 12:34 pm 
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How was CSN?


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 Post subject: Re: Jack to Mariners
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 12:57 pm 
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Az Bucco fan wrote:
How was CSN?


It was awesome, one of the best shows I have seen...

I'll give a report later, trying to get caught up on work from yesterday...

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I say keep the $50 and ban him anyway...

For those jumping ship, we'll keep the bandwagon warm for you...


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