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 Post subject: Re: Why Not This Guy???
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 6:27 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
jaybee24 wrote:
Um, Dave Parker actually testified in open court that Willie Stargell and Willie Mays supplied him with illegal amphetamines. So there's more evidence that Parker "cheated" than Bonds did. (Cheated is in quotes there because neither amphetamines nor steroids were against baseball's rules when Parker/Bonds partook of them. And please, for the love of God, don't make the ridiculous "but they were illegal" argument...the list of illegal things that ball players have done on the field stretches on for miles and back to the beginnings of the game.)


No, but please quite equivocating those. The performance side is not even friggin close. Bond's stature grew at a time and age with Parker was entering retiremnt due to age.

If Parker had used his butt the same way Bond's did, he might still be playing!

ZM


The notion that amphetamines are somehow a venial sin compared to steroids' mortal sin is a fallacy propagated by a sports media that is desperate to rationalize the behavior of its heroes, guys like Mickey Mantle, Willie Mays, and Willie Stargell. Whereas the effect that steroids have had on the game has been more visible due to home runs, the effect of amphetamines has been far more pervasive, both in duration and number of players taking them. There are a number of players who wouldn't be enshrined in Cooperstown were it not for the helping hand of greenies in getting them through a 162 game season crammed into 180 days with regular cross country travel. Jim Bouton's Ball Four chronicles that pretty well.


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 Post subject: Re: Why Not This Guy???
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:22 pm 
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And, that is equivalent to bulking up to a bobblehead, just how?

It is well documented that amphetamines do not enhance performance. Hell they are given to fighter pilots in flight. The only thing the greenies do is the equivalent of a supercaffeine rush.

Repeat... greenies are not a performance enhancing drug... they are at best, a performance-allowing drug.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Why Not This Guy???
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:44 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
And, that is equivalent to bulking up to a bobblehead, just how?

It is well documented that amphetamines do not enhance performance. Hell they are given to fighter pilots in flight. The only thing the greenies do is the equivalent of a supercaffeine rush.

Repeat... greenies are not a performance enhancing drug... they are at best, a performance-allowing drug.

ZM

Yeah, and steroids are sold over the counter to treat poison ivy. That does not change the fact that both are treated equally under MLB's rules.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Not This Guy???
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 8:11 pm 
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Willton wrote:
Yeah, and steroids are sold over the counter to treat poison ivy. That does not change the fact that both are treated equally under MLB's rules.


Incorrect.

Corticosteroids are an immunosuppressant and used to treat things like poison ivy and other inflammatory conditions.

Anabolic steroids are completely different, they are sex hormones.

The term "steroid" refers to the chemical structure. Cholesterol is a steroid.


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 Post subject: Re: Why Not This Guy???
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 8:37 pm 
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BBF wrote:
Willton wrote:
Yeah, and steroids are sold over the counter to treat poison ivy. That does not change the fact that both are treated equally under MLB's rules.


Incorrect.

Corticosteroids are an immunosuppressant and used to treat things like poison ivy and other inflammatory conditions.

Anabolic steroids are completely different, they are sex hormones.

The term "steroid" refers to the chemical structure. Cholesterol is a steroid.

Oops, my bad. Can you tell I didn't take organic chemistry in college?

Well, the point stills stands. MLB's rules treat anabolic steroids and amphetamines equally as banned substances. Users of such should not be treated differently as cheaters.

And if someone is going to go with a morality ploy, I will remind all of you that the Baseball HOF has an alcoholic and womanizer (Babe Ruth), an avid racist (Ty Cobb), and a well-documented cheater (Gaylord Perry) among its ranks.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Not This Guy???
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:45 pm 
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And your point is????

Your insistence on equivocation is approaching mind boggling. These simply are not the same. Our society and baseball, recognizes varying degrees of complexity and severity. Can you think of another reason why commish's penalties vary? I mean, cheating is cheating right. Ten games and $50,000 bucks "per cheat", right?

That said, I made no moral statement. Only a rather factual conjecture that Parker's career may have mimicked or eclipsed Bond's had he done the needle up the butt.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Why Not This Guy???
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 2:41 am 
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BBF wrote:
Willton wrote:
Yeah, and steroids are sold over the counter to treat poison ivy. That does not change the fact that both are treated equally under MLB's rules.


Incorrect.

Corticosteroids are an immunosuppressant and used to treat things like poison ivy and other inflammatory conditions.

Anabolic steroids are completely different, they are sex hormones.

The term "steroid" refers to the chemical structure. Cholesterol is a steroid.


Would Epinephrine(pure adrenaline) be consider Anabolic?


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 Post subject: Re: Why Not This Guy???
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 11:06 am 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Only a rather factual conjecture that Parker's career may have mimicked or eclipsed Bond's had he done the needle up the butt.

ZM

Can you be so certain Parker didn't use steroids?

After his numbers flatlined in Pittsburgh, Parker caught a second wind in Cincinnati in 1985. Reds trainer Larry Starr, a key expert for the Mitchell report, claims he started seeing evidence of anabolic steroid use in the clubhouse circa 1984.

Parker then goes on to Oakland in 1988, just as Canseco and McGwire are coming up.

Draw your own conclusions.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Not This Guy???
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:24 pm 
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Colin21 wrote:
BBF wrote:
Willton wrote:
Yeah, and steroids are sold over the counter to treat poison ivy. That does not change the fact that both are treated equally under MLB's rules.


Incorrect.

Corticosteroids are an immunosuppressant and used to treat things like poison ivy and other inflammatory conditions.

Anabolic steroids are completely different, they are sex hormones.

The term "steroid" refers to the chemical structure. Cholesterol is a steroid.


Would Epinephrine(pure adrenaline) be consider Anabolic?


Epinephrine is not anabolic. It is a catecholamine. It is not a steroid of any type.


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 Post subject: Re: Why Not This Guy???
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:24 pm 
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Are their ANY reports of Parker using steroids? Of his head and body becoming the size of beachballs?

No.

Later in his career, Parker actually got smaller and lighter to conserve his knee's.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Why Not This Guy???
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 2:05 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Of his head and body becoming the size of beachballs?

Well, perhaps they would've ... if he had been cycling on the exact same drug and dosage as Barry Bonds. Not every juicer turns into the Michelin Tire Man. See Ramirez, Manny.

It's all just conjecture anyway. I'm just pointing out that the timeline and some of the principle places and names coincide in Parker's case to raise a question or two. If you have an easy time dismissing them, good on ya.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Not This Guy???
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 2:50 pm 
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Quote:
Epinephrine is not anabolic. It is a catecholamine. It is not a steroid of any type.


I don't know where to find a list of what is banned from MLB, i hope that is one of them. Does anybody know if it is?


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 Post subject: Re: Why Not This Guy???
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 3:33 pm 
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LtCol Kojak Slaphead wrote:

It's all just conjecture anyway. I'm just pointing out that the timeline and some of the principle places and names coincide in Parker's case to raise a question or two. If you have an easy time dismissing them, good on ya.


Yes it is. No real use in that.

My simplest point is that, in his prime years... before cocaine and knee injuries took their toll, Parker was, I think easily, the better player... if one can look past walks and HRs to see a complete player.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Why Not This Guy???
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 3:49 pm 
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Colin21 wrote:
Quote:
Epinephrine is not anabolic. It is a catecholamine. It is not a steroid of any type.


I don't know where to find a list of what is banned from MLB, i hope that is one of them. Does anybody know if it is?


No way epinephrine is a banned substance. Also, no way it would enhance performance. Its half life is very short.


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 Post subject: Re: Why Not This Guy???
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:51 pm 
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Animal wrote:
Okay, Jim Rice was inducted into the Hall of Fame today.

In 16 seasons, he hit .298 with 2452 hits, 382 HR, 1451 RBI, 1249 Runs, 79 Triples, 373 doubles, and 58 SB.
He played in 8 AS games, won 1 MVP award, finished in Top 10 for MVP 6 times, 2 silver sluggers. He played in 2 playoff series and 1 World Series (which his team lost). hitting .225 in 18 playoff games with 2 HR and 7 RBI.

This guy...

played 19 seasons. hit .290 with 2712 hits, 339 Home Runs, 1493 RBI, 1272 Runs, 75 Triples, 526 doubles, and 154 SB.
He played in 7 AS games (winning MVP once), won 2 MVPs (finishing in Top 10, 6 times), 3 Silver Sluggers, 3 Gold Gloves. He played in 8 playoff series, including 3 World Series (winning 2). He hit .234 in post season with 3 HR and 11 RBI. He also was one of the most feared players in the majors during his time, and his OF arm was unparalleled by anyone except perhaps Clemente.

Why isn't this guy getting into the Hall of Fame? His name??

THE COBRA!

Dave Parker is just a step below HOF quality, IMO, but he was a better player than Jim Rice. Rice should have to buy a ticket to get into the Hall.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Not This Guy???
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:52 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
In his prime, Parker was better than Bonds.

ZM

Pshaw.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Not This Guy???
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:04 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
And your point is????

Your insistence on equivocation is approaching mind boggling. These simply are not the same. Our society and baseball, recognizes varying degrees of complexity and severity. Can you think of another reason why commish's penalties vary? I mean, cheating is cheating right. Ten games and $50,000 bucks "per cheat", right?

That said, I made no moral statement. Only a rather factual conjecture that Parker's career may have mimicked or eclipsed Bond's had he done the needle up the butt.

ZM

No, it wouldn't have. Dave Parker was a great player. Barry Bonds was one of the greatest players in history, and that was before he ever started using steroids.

And yes, I did see Parker play. I thought he was the best player in the NL from from 77-79. I thought that Barry Bonds was the best player in the NL from 1990-2004. There is NO comparison. Parker had a better arm, and he took a back seat to nobody I ever saw when it came to hustle. Barry Bonds was superior in every other category.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Not This Guy???
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:10 pm 
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sisyphus wrote:
No, it wouldn't have. Dave Parker was a great player. Barry Bonds was one of the greatest players in history, and that was before he ever started using steroids.

And yes, I did see Parker play. I thought he was the best player in the NL from from 77-79. I thought that Barry Bonds was the best player in the NL from 1990-2004. There is NO comparison. Parker had a better arm, and he took a back seat to nobody I ever saw when it came to hustle. Barry Bonds was superior in every other category.


Barry was not one of the greatest before Steriods. He was a 30/30 guy, with a great 40/40 year. Griffey was a better player in that time frame, and in retrospect, looks like the greatest naturally gifted player. I'll take the 77-79 Parker any day, if you make me make that choice.

I hate to think to what would have happened to the league had Junior taken 'roids to protect his legs at a minimum.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Why Not This Guy???
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:54 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
LtCol Kojak Slaphead wrote:

It's all just conjecture anyway. I'm just pointing out that the timeline and some of the principle places and names coincide in Parker's case to raise a question or two. If you have an easy time dismissing them, good on ya.


Yes it is. No real use in that.

My simplest point is that, in his prime years... before cocaine and knee injuries took their toll, Parker was, I think easily, the better player... if one can look past walks and HRs to see a complete player.

ZM

If you can look past 94 walks a year, and 19 home runs a year, and 37 runs scored a year, and 10 RBI a year, and base stealing, and base running, and range in the outfield, and the ability to actually catch the many more balls that he got to, and just focus on two years of batting average and a powerful arm, then yes, Parker was a more complete player.

Keep in mind that I'm a huge Parker fan. Give him a pair of healthy knees and he's in the Hall on his first or second try. But there is no comparison of these two guys. Stop Bonds' career after 2000, the year before he took up steroids, and he's STILL way ahead of Parker.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Not This Guy???
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:05 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
No, it wouldn't have. Dave Parker was a great player. Barry Bonds was one of the greatest players in history, and that was before he ever started using steroids.

And yes, I did see Parker play. I thought he was the best player in the NL from from 77-79. I thought that Barry Bonds was the best player in the NL from 1990-2004. There is NO comparison. Parker had a better arm, and he took a back seat to nobody I ever saw when it came to hustle. Barry Bonds was superior in every other category.


Barry was not one of the greatest before Steriods. He was a 30/30 guy, with a great 40/40 year.

That is ridiculous. Long before steroids Bonds had already won three MVP awards, and he should have won at least one more. He dominated the National League.

Quote:
Griffey was a better player in that time frame, and in retrospect, looks like the greatest naturally gifted player.

Note that I did say the best player in the National League, and I did so simply because I didn't feel much like arguing Bonds vs. Griffey. I still don't feel like that argument, so I'll just say that the consensus at the time was that either Griffey or Bonds was the best player in baseball, and there wasn't much mention of anyone else for that title. There was plenty of debate during Parker's time, though, and his prime was exactly three years long, compared to the more than a decade of excellence that Bonds put up before steroids.

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I'll take the 77-79 Parker any day, if you make me make that choice.

And I'll take the guy who was the better hitter, defender, and base runner, Barry Bonds.

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