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 Post subject: Re: I call "bulls__t"
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 10:14 am 
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estrago wrote:
So why would you say in public that the SS you may trade is a below average hitter? Reward your 2nd basemen with an offer you know will be rejected because you thought so highly of him? Some one needs to inform this GM that you try to prop up the players abilities when trying to trade them, not devalue them. Negotiation 101.

Wilson and Sanchez should be counting down the days until they exit this Mickey Mouse organization.


estrago -
I'm pretty sure that there are 29 other GMs in MLB that knew Jack Wilson was a "below average hitter." Hell, anyone on this Board knows that Jack Wilson is a below average hitter. With respect to Wilson, the other GMs have spoken loudly and clearly over the past few years what they thought he was worth. With respect to Sanchez, the other GMs have informed NH what they think his value is. The "notion" that Huntington released top secret information and has destroyed Wilson and Sanchez's trade values is - IMO - outcome determinative reasoning designed to reach a particular conclusion, namely that NH doesn't know what he is doing.

If you think that the offer was low, cheap or whatever, that is fine. But the overreaching claims that NH has somehow unwittingly released information that the rest of baseball didn't know is just strange.

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 Post subject: Re: I call "bulls__t"
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 10:21 am 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Oh, I'm pretty sure they do.

Can you say "strategery"...

ZM


ZM -
IMO, this was absolutely 100% calculated by Sanchez's agent. They didn't like the offer. Agent goes to the media (and, consequently, to the public) to feed off of the current "Pirates are cheap" atmosphere in an effort to put more pressure on management to up the offer to Sanchez. Agent refers to the offer as a "low ball" offer. Agent claims it is a "take it or leave it" offer with no room to negotiate. This whole notion of "we didn't know it was negotiable" is ludicrous.

And you know what? The media (and most of the public) bit and bit hard.

Now, magically, after working the media and public into a frenzy . . . Sanchez says "ooooh . . . we misunderstood . . . we didn't know that we could counteroffer . . . " Yeah, right.

Total "bullsh_t." Very calculated. Very strategic. If you don't like the offer, make it public and throw some chum to the sharks. Voila . . . the masses have once again grabbed the torches and pitchforks and played right into your hands.

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Reflexively, obsessively and tastelessly submitted,
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Obsessive proponent of situational bunting and 2 strike hitting approaches, reflexively pro-catchers calling good games and tasteless proponent of the value of a RBI.


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 Post subject: Re: I call "bulls__t"
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 11:54 am 
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No. 9 wrote:
If you don't like the offer, make it public and throw some chum to the sharks. Voila . . . the masses have once again grabbed the torches and pitchforks and played right into your hands.

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 Post subject: Re: I call "bulls__t"
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 12:15 pm 
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I find Jack's statements to be very curious. He may very well be clueless on some things. Why is it mandatory that we retain Sanchez? He's not Albert freakin' Pujols. We actually could find another second baseman, without setting the organization back 5 years.

Besides, Freddy may very well be here next year anyway, because of that 8 million dollar elephant in the room.


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 Post subject: Re: I call "bulls__t"
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 1:57 pm 
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Ralphie wrote:
I find Jack's statements to be very curious. He may very well be clueless on some things. Why is it mandatory that we retain Sanchez? He's not Albert freakin' Pujols. We actually could find another second baseman, without setting the organization back 5 years.

Besides, Freddy may very well be here next year anyway, because of that 8 million dollar elephant in the room.


I think everyone has made too much of Freddy Sanchez. We have all made him out to be Ted Williams and he isn't that good, nor could he ever dream of being.


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 Post subject: Re: I call "bulls__t"
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 4:41 pm 
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The biggest problem is there is no replacements in the organization to take their places...They're worth a lot more to the Pirates than anyone else...

Freddy's plate appearance clause gives them time over the offseason to see if Young is their 2nd baseman or to find someone via trade...And instead of spending $10 Million in two years, they spend $8 Million for one, which is $3 Million more than offered for one season...and possibly less depending if they trade him next season...If you trade him before the deadline next season, you would essentially be paying him $5 or 6 Million, close to the original offer Neil gave over the weekend...

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 Post subject: Re: I call "bulls__t"
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 6:03 pm 
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Sanchez has had some very good offensive years for the Pirates. Further, he is quite good on defense.

If Sanchez is dealt, it will have to be for a player ready to start at second base in the majors - somebody like Eric Young, Jr., for example. That is because the fall-off from Sanchez to "whoever" is enormous.


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 Post subject: Re: I call "bulls__t"
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 6:28 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
Sanchez has had some very good offensive years for the Pirates. Further, he is quite good on defense.

If Sanchez is dealt, it will have to be for a player ready to start at second base in the majors - somebody like Eric Young, Jr., for example. That is because the fall-off from Sanchez to "whoever" is enormous.

Disagree. The Pirates need talent in general. If all we're looking for is a replacement for Sanchez, such a player can be found in free agency. The Pirates should not be making the Littlefieldian mistake of demanding a certain type of player (major-league-ready) from a trade when they are not in a position to contend. Doing so only limits the potential trade partners with whom they may trade, and it limits the potential value that the Pirates may receive in return. See Ty Wigginton and the Kris Benson trade.

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 Post subject: Re: I call "bulls__t"
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 10:07 pm 
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Willton wrote:
Disagree. The Pirates need talent in general. If all we're looking for is a replacement for Sanchez, such a player can be found in free agency. The Pirates should not be making the Littlefieldian mistake of demanding a certain type of player (major-league-ready) from a trade when they are not in a position to contend. Doing so only limits the potential trade partners with whom they may trade, and it limits the potential value that the Pirates may receive in return. See Ty Wigginton and the Kris Benson trade.

Somebody needs to play second. Right now, the Pirates are woeful in middle infield talent. Any trade of Sanchez simply has to bring in middle infield talent.


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 Post subject: Re: I call "bulls__t"
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 10:26 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
Willton wrote:
Disagree. The Pirates need talent in general. If all we're looking for is a replacement for Sanchez, such a player can be found in free agency. The Pirates should not be making the Littlefieldian mistake of demanding a certain type of player (major-league-ready) from a trade when they are not in a position to contend. Doing so only limits the potential trade partners with whom they may trade, and it limits the potential value that the Pirates may receive in return. See Ty Wigginton and the Kris Benson trade.

Somebody needs to play second. Right now, the Pirates are woeful in middle infield talent. Any trade of Sanchez simply has to bring in middle infield talent.

I still think they'll trade Capps and/or Grabow to the Rockies for Young Eric Young then trade Sanchez, probably to the Giants, for the best prospects they can get. Middle infield talent has to be added but not necessarily in the same deal.


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 Post subject: Re: I call "bulls__t"
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 10:37 pm 
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burghermeister wrote:
Bucfan wrote:
Willton wrote:
Disagree. The Pirates need talent in general. If all we're looking for is a replacement for Sanchez, such a player can be found in free agency. The Pirates should not be making the Littlefieldian mistake of demanding a certain type of player (major-league-ready) from a trade when they are not in a position to contend. Doing so only limits the potential trade partners with whom they may trade, and it limits the potential value that the Pirates may receive in return. See Ty Wigginton and the Kris Benson trade.

Somebody needs to play second. Right now, the Pirates are woeful in middle infield talent. Any trade of Sanchez simply has to bring in middle infield talent.

I still think they'll trade Capps and/or Grabow to the Rockies for Young Eric Young then trade Sanchez, probably to the Giants, for the best prospects they can get. Middle infield talent has to be added but not necessarily in the same deal.


If we could get Eric Young for Capps or Grabow we should be dancing in the streets.


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 Post subject: Re: I call "bulls__t"
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 11:39 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
Willton wrote:
Disagree. The Pirates need talent in general. If all we're looking for is a replacement for Sanchez, such a player can be found in free agency. The Pirates should not be making the Littlefieldian mistake of demanding a certain type of player (major-league-ready) from a trade when they are not in a position to contend. Doing so only limits the potential trade partners with whom they may trade, and it limits the potential value that the Pirates may receive in return. See Ty Wigginton and the Kris Benson trade.

Somebody needs to play second. Right now, the Pirates are woeful in middle infield talent. Any trade of Sanchez simply has to bring in middle infield talent.

Well, they're not in contention this year, so why does that matter? Let Cruz or Vazquez take 2B. Yeah it will be ugly, but so what? It's rebuilding. Deal with it.

The worst thing that could happen in a Sanchez trade is demanding a 2nd baseman in return and get the middle infielder equivalent of Jody Gerut circa 2005. The Pirates need talent in the worst way right now; they should not be picky about what position said talent plays.

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 Post subject: Re: I call "bulls__t"
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 12:03 am 
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Quote:
Well, they're not in contention this year, so why does that matter? Let Cruz or Vazquez take 2B. Yeah it will be ugly, but so what? It's rebuilding.


If that is the situation i would rather see Cruz get more playing time over Vazquez, just because he might not have reached his full potential yet being that he is only 24. While Vazquez on the other hand will be 33 in August, and he is on a rough career downslide.


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 Post subject: Re: I call "bulls__t"
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 12:40 am 
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Willton wrote:
Bucfan wrote:
Willton wrote:
Disagree. The Pirates need talent in general. If all we're looking for is a replacement for Sanchez, such a player can be found in free agency. The Pirates should not be making the Littlefieldian mistake of demanding a certain type of player (major-league-ready) from a trade when they are not in a position to contend. Doing so only limits the potential trade partners with whom they may trade, and it limits the potential value that the Pirates may receive in return. See Ty Wigginton and the Kris Benson trade.

Somebody needs to play second. Right now, the Pirates are woeful in middle infield talent. Any trade of Sanchez simply has to bring in middle infield talent.

Well, they're not in contention this year, so why does that matter? Let Cruz or Vazquez take 2B. Yeah it will be ugly, but so what? It's rebuilding. Deal with it.

The worst thing that could happen in a Sanchez trade is demanding a 2nd baseman in return and get the middle infielder equivalent of Jody Gerut circa 2005. The Pirates need talent in the worst way right now; they should not be picky about what position said talent plays.


I'll add that it seems unlikely that we'll get middle infield talent for a middle infielder. The Rockies are the exception to the rule, where Eric Young is not in major league ready right this instant. Freddy might be in a position to help them now, so we could take their second baseman off their hands who may be ready in the middle of next year. But if we limit ourselves to trading with the Rockies, we won't get Young anyway.


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