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 Post subject: Best Infield Defense
PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 8:39 pm 
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From LaRoche to Wilson to Sanchez to LaRoche.

Anybody have better infield defense than the Bucs?

I don't think so.

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 Post subject: Re: Best Infield Defense
PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 9:35 pm 
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Animal wrote:
From LaRoche to Wilson to Sanchez to LaRoche.

Anybody have better infield defense than the Bucs?

I don't think so.

I'd say the Tigers have a better infield defense than we do. The Pirates have one standout (Wilson), two slightly above average defenders (Sanchez, Andy LaRoche) and one average defender (Adam LaRoche). Meanwhile, the Tigers have two standouts (Inge, Polanco) and two average defenders (Everett and Cabrera).

However, that was tough to find. Many teams have better defenders than the Pirates do at certain positions, but they do not have the overall defensive strength that the Pirates have.

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 Post subject: Re: Best Infield Defense
PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 9:37 pm 
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Willton wrote:
Animal wrote:
From LaRoche to Wilson to Sanchez to LaRoche.

Anybody have better infield defense than the Bucs?

I don't think so.

I'd say the Tigers have a better infield defense than we do. The Pirates have one standout (Wilson), two slightly above average defenders (Sanchez, Andy LaRoche) and one average defender (Adam LaRoche). Meanwhile, the Tigers have two standouts (Inge, Polanco) and two average defenders (Everett and Cabrera).

However, that was tough to find. Many teams have better defenders than the Pirates do at certain positions, but they do not have the overall defensive strength that the Pirates have.


Regardless of what the stats say, I would argue that Adam is an above average defender at 1st. Too bad they are all average or worse offensively.


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 Post subject: Re: Best Infield Defense
PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 10:57 pm 
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BBF wrote:
Willton wrote:
Animal wrote:
From LaRoche to Wilson to Sanchez to LaRoche.

Anybody have better infield defense than the Bucs?

I don't think so.

I'd say the Tigers have a better infield defense than we do. The Pirates have one standout (Wilson), two slightly above average defenders (Sanchez, Andy LaRoche) and one average defender (Adam LaRoche). Meanwhile, the Tigers have two standouts (Inge, Polanco) and two average defenders (Everett and Cabrera).

However, that was tough to find. Many teams have better defenders than the Pirates do at certain positions, but they do not have the overall defensive strength that the Pirates have.


Regardless of what the stats say, I would argue that Adam is an above average defender at 1st. Too bad they are all average or worse offensively.



I think they are all above average. While Freddy does not have the range, he is very sure handed. Adam and Jack are very good. I think Andy is better than average.

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 Post subject: Re: Best Infield Defense
PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 11:04 pm 
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BBF wrote:
Willton wrote:
Animal wrote:
From LaRoche to Wilson to Sanchez to LaRoche.

Anybody have better infield defense than the Bucs?

I don't think so.

I'd say the Tigers have a better infield defense than we do. The Pirates have one standout (Wilson), two slightly above average defenders (Sanchez, Andy LaRoche) and one average defender (Adam LaRoche). Meanwhile, the Tigers have two standouts (Inge, Polanco) and two average defenders (Everett and Cabrera).

However, that was tough to find. Many teams have better defenders than the Pirates do at certain positions, but they do not have the overall defensive strength that the Pirates have.


Regardless of what the stats say, I would argue that Adam is an above average defender at 1st. Too bad they are all average or worse offensively.


Yea, as much as it pains me because I've seen all I want to of this guy...LaRoche at 1B is very good. He is smooth and gives a great target to throwers. I think they are extremely confident throwing over to him, and that is an important quality to have for your fellow infielders.


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 Post subject: Re: Best Infield Defense
PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 11:05 pm 
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Quote:
I'd say the Tigers have a better infield defense than we do. The Pirates have one standout (Wilson), two slightly above average defenders (Sanchez, Andy LaRoche) and one average defender (Adam LaRoche). Meanwhile, the Tigers have two standouts (Inge, Polanco) and two average defenders (Everett and Cabrera).

Quote:
However, that was tough to find. Many teams have better defenders than the Pirates do at certain positions, but they do not have the overall defensive strength that the Pirates have.


Quote:
Regardless of what the stats say, I would argue that Adam is an above average defender at 1st. Too bad they are all average or worse offensively.


Yea, as much as it pains me because I've seen all I want to of this guy...LaRoche at 1B is very good. He is smooth and gives a great target to throwers. I think they are extremely confident throwing over to him, and that is an important quality to have for your fellow infielders.


ABSOLUTELY!

Throwing to Adam saves a lot of errors.

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 Post subject: Re: Best Infield Defense
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 2:09 am 
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Willton wrote:
Animal wrote:
From LaRoche to Wilson to Sanchez to LaRoche.

Anybody have better infield defense than the Bucs?

I don't think so.

I'd say the Tigers have a better infield defense than we do. The Pirates have one standout (Wilson), two slightly above average defenders (Sanchez, Andy LaRoche) and one average defender (Adam LaRoche). Meanwhile, the Tigers have two standouts (Inge, Polanco) and two average defenders (Everett and Cabrera).

However, that was tough to find. Many teams have better defenders than the Pirates do at certain positions, but they do not have the overall defensive strength that the Pirates have.


Andy LaRoche is a standout at 3B defensively...his FRAR is 20 this year, and Inge's is 16. Unless replacement level is defined drastically differently between the two leagues, Andy LaRoche is playing a better third this year than Inge.


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 Post subject: Re: Best Infield Defense
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 2:35 am 
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jaybee24 wrote:
Willton wrote:
Animal wrote:
From LaRoche to Wilson to Sanchez to LaRoche.

Anybody have better infield defense than the Bucs?

I don't think so.

I'd say the Tigers have a better infield defense than we do. The Pirates have one standout (Wilson), two slightly above average defenders (Sanchez, Andy LaRoche) and one average defender (Adam LaRoche). Meanwhile, the Tigers have two standouts (Inge, Polanco) and two average defenders (Everett and Cabrera).

However, that was tough to find. Many teams have better defenders than the Pirates do at certain positions, but they do not have the overall defensive strength that the Pirates have.


Andy LaRoche is a standout at 3B defensively...his FRAR is 20 this year, and Inge's is 16. Unless replacement level is defined drastically differently between the two leagues, Andy LaRoche is playing a better third this year than Inge.

I was looking at UZR, and it says that Andy is a mere 3.1 runs better than the average 3B, while Inge has a UZR of 8.5.

I've grown skeptical of FRAA and FRAR, as they are shrouded in mystery. Nobody knows how to calculate it except Clay Davenport, and he has decided to keep its formula a trade secret, even the value of such a secret is questionable in my mind. UZR at least has some explanation of how its numbers are achieved, even if that explanation is very general.

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 Post subject: Re: Best Infield Defense
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 3:51 am 
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Fielding metrics seem like gibberish to me. I realize baseball is a statistics based sport, probably one of the reasons that I love it so much, but I think that there are variables in defining a quantitative measure like defensive statistics that skew their effectiveness. Offensive statistics are much easier to define and compare. A hit is a hit, a home run is a home run and an out is an out. ZR's, UZR's, FRAA and the sort make me say WTF! Maybe I am old fashioned or just plain stubborn, but I think that the best way to evaluate a player's defensive prowess is by WATCHING HIM. Just my worthless two cents.

Oh yeah...and through personal observation...Adam LaRoche is top notch defensively...no matter what the 'statistics' say.


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 Post subject: Re: Best Infield Defense
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 5:33 am 
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Chris Anderson wrote:
Fielding metrics seem like gibberish to me. I realize baseball is a statistics based sport, probably one of the reasons that I love it so much, but I think that there are variables in defining a quantitative measure like defensive statistics that skew their effectiveness. Offensive statistics are much easier to define and compare. A hit is a hit, a home run is a home run and an out is an out. ZR's, UZR's, FRAA and the sort make me say WTF! Maybe I am old fashioned or just plain stubborn, but I think that the best way to evaluate a player's defensive prowess is by WATCHING HIM. Just my worthless two cents.

Oh yeah...and through personal observation...Adam LaRoche is top notch defensively...no matter what the 'statistics' say.


I agree 100%!

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 Post subject: Re: Best Infield Defense
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 11:14 am 
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Chris Anderson wrote:
Fielding metrics seem like gibberish to me. I realize baseball is a statistics based sport, probably one of the reasons that I love it so much, but I think that there are variables in defining a quantitative measure like defensive statistics that skew their effectiveness. Offensive statistics are much easier to define and compare. A hit is a hit, a home run is a home run and an out is an out. ZR's, UZR's, FRAA and the sort make me say WTF! Maybe I am old fashioned or just plain stubborn, but I think that the best way to evaluate a player's defensive prowess is by WATCHING HIM. Just my worthless two cents.

Oh yeah...and through personal observation...Adam LaRoche is top notch defensively...no matter what the 'statistics' say.


Watching??? Blasphemy!!!! I couldn't agree more with you. Defensive stats are ridiculous.


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 Post subject: Re: Best Infield Defense
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 12:06 pm 
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Willton wrote:

I was looking at UZR, and it says that Andy is a mere 3.1 runs better than the average 3B, while Inge has a UZR of 8.5.

I've grown skeptical of FRAA and FRAR, as they are shrouded in mystery. Nobody knows how to calculate it except Clay Davenport, and he has decided to keep its formula a trade secret, even the value of such a secret is questionable in my mind. UZR at least has some explanation of how its numbers are achieved, even if that explanation is very general.


Yeah, I should have glanced at UZR as well. You're right about FRAR too, I find it very frustrating that it's "proprietary" and that's that. But how is UZR calculated? I haven't been able to find any details on that either.


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 Post subject: Re: Best Infield Defense
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 12:20 pm 
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Chris Anderson wrote:
Fielding metrics seem like gibberish to me. I realize baseball is a statistics based sport, probably one of the reasons that I love it so much, but I think that there are variables in defining a quantitative measure like defensive statistics that skew their effectiveness. Offensive statistics are much easier to define and compare. A hit is a hit, a home run is a home run and an out is an out.


A home run at Citizen's Bank Park may not be a home run in Dodger Stadium. Comparing straight offensive statistics can be misleading.

Chris Anderson wrote:
ZR's, UZR's, FRAA and the sort make me say WTF!


I actually agree here. The way in which they are calculated isn't immediately obvious. I tend to rely on them because I like statistics and they sum up defensive performance in one nice number. But if Baseball Prospectus and others are serious about making baseball analysis more "scientific," they need to be more transparent about how these numbers are calculated so that they are subject to peer review, just like in academic scientific fields.

Chris Anderson wrote:
Maybe I am old fashioned or just plain stubborn, but I think that the best way to evaluate a player's defensive prowess is by WATCHING HIM. Just my worthless two cents.


Completely disagree here. Memory is selective and biased. Also, what looks like a great play in a Sportscenter highlight, i.e. an outfielder or SS diving to make a play, may actually be an indicator of defensive weakness, in that a better defender might not have even needed to dive.

Sure, I can tell that Jack Wilson is a great defender just by watching him, but I don't think that there's anyone on the board that has watched enough of both Brandon Inge and Andy LaRoche to make a meaningful conclusion about which player is the superior defender.

The New York Times just published an article about a video camera system being installed at every stadium in the majors that will be able to measure the speed with which players get to balls, the routes they take, reaction times, how hard the ball is hit, etc. Supposedly this data will be made available to the public as well. I can't wait.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/10/sport ... era&st=cse


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 Post subject: Re: Best Infield Defense
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 1:27 pm 
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Rich Donnelly gave high praise to the LaRoche's on their defense...

Quote:
Yeah, I know, nobody else will say this. If you take a survey of everyone in the majors, Andy might come up 30th just because they wouldn't have seen him as much. Pretty much the same with Adam. But I'm not just telling you this. I'm telling this to other people in baseball, and some of them are starting to notice."


http://community.post-gazette.com/blogs ... touch.aspx

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 Post subject: Re: Best Infield Defense
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 1:39 pm 
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Animal wrote:
Chris Anderson wrote:
Fielding metrics seem like gibberish to me. I realize baseball is a statistics based sport, probably one of the reasons that I love it so much, but I think that there are variables in defining a quantitative measure like defensive statistics that skew their effectiveness. Offensive statistics are much easier to define and compare. A hit is a hit, a home run is a home run and an out is an out. ZR's, UZR's, FRAA and the sort make me say WTF! Maybe I am old fashioned or just plain stubborn, but I think that the best way to evaluate a player's defensive prowess is by WATCHING HIM. Just my worthless two cents.

Oh yeah...and through personal observation...Adam LaRoche is top notch defensively...no matter what the 'statistics' say.


I agree 100%!


Me too. Wilton sometimes we need to look at life as it exists and not rely completely on stats. You won't change view but Adam LeRoche is considered by almost all here (a stat) to be way above average in sipite of the fact that he is not popular among those same people.

Come on buddy-- see the light of massive opinion.

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 Post subject: Re: Best Infield Defense
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 2:02 pm 
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Substitute2 wrote:
Animal wrote:
Chris Anderson wrote:
Fielding metrics seem like gibberish to me. I realize baseball is a statistics based sport, probably one of the reasons that I love it so much, but I think that there are variables in defining a quantitative measure like defensive statistics that skew their effectiveness. Offensive statistics are much easier to define and compare. A hit is a hit, a home run is a home run and an out is an out. ZR's, UZR's, FRAA and the sort make me say WTF! Maybe I am old fashioned or just plain stubborn, but I think that the best way to evaluate a player's defensive prowess is by WATCHING HIM. Just my worthless two cents.

Oh yeah...and through personal observation...Adam LaRoche is top notch defensively...no matter what the 'statistics' say.


I agree 100%!


Me too. Wilton sometimes we need to look at life as it exists and not rely completely on stats. You won't change view but Adam LeRoche is considered by almost all here (a stat) to be way above average in sipite of the fact that he is not popular among those same people.

Come on buddy-- see the light of massive opinion.


"Massive" opinion? Really? You're talking about the impressions of maybe ten regular contributors who are all Pirate fans and are thus all biased. That sounds like a pretty small, slanted sample to me.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying anything about Adam's defense here. But the argument that "we're right because we say so" is obviously circular. Does he move well to his right compared to other first basemen? Does he scoop more throws in the dirt than others? Does he react better to balls hit sharply down the line? I haven't heard any of these arguments here, and these are the type of observations that should come out of "just watching" him.


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 Post subject: Re: Best Infield Defense
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 2:17 pm 
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jaybee24 wrote:
Substitute2 wrote:
Me too. Wilton sometimes we need to look at life as it exists and not rely completely on stats. You won't change view but Adam LeRoche is considered by almost all here (a stat) to be way above average in sipite of the fact that he is not popular among those same people.

Come on buddy-- see the light of massive opinion.


"Massive" opinion? Really? You're talking about the impressions of maybe ten regular contributors who are all Pirate fans and are thus all biased. That sounds like a pretty small, slanted sample to me.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying anything about Adam's defense here. But the argument that "we're right because we say so" is obviously circular. Does he move well to his right compared to other first basemen? Does he scoop more throws in the dirt than others? Does he react better to balls hit sharply down the line? I haven't heard any of these arguments here, and these are the type of observations that should come out of "just watching" him.


First you are doing what some others on this board do-- you're misqouting to make your point. Look above and find me saying massive or anything like it. What I said was that most of us disagree with Wilton, and you if you like, that Adam LaRoche is average on defense. That is not an untruth. Does it matter. Yes, to me it does because those same opinions that you discount are respected by me as knowledgable baseball minds. So, stay with your stats just don't credit me with things I didn't say or imply.

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 Post subject: Re: Best Infield Defense
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 2:23 pm 
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Substitute2 wrote:
jaybee24 wrote:
Substitute2 wrote:
Me too. Wilton sometimes we need to look at life as it exists and not rely completely on stats. You won't change view but Adam LeRoche is considered by almost all here (a stat) to be way above average in sipite of the fact that he is not popular among those same people.

Come on buddy-- see the light of massive opinion.


"Massive" opinion? Really? You're talking about the impressions of maybe ten regular contributors who are all Pirate fans and are thus all biased. That sounds like a pretty small, slanted sample to me.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying anything about Adam's defense here. But the argument that "we're right because we say so" is obviously circular. Does he move well to his right compared to other first basemen? Does he scoop more throws in the dirt than others? Does he react better to balls hit sharply down the line? I haven't heard any of these arguments here, and these are the type of observations that should come out of "just watching" him.


First you are doing what some others on this board do-- you're misqouting to make your point. Look above and find me saying massive or anything like it. What I said was that most of us disagree with Wilton, and you if you like, that Adam LaRoche is average on defense. That is not an untruth. Does it matter. Yes, to me it does because those same opinions that you discount are respected by me as knowledgable baseball minds. So, stay with your stats just don't credit me with things I didn't say or imply.


I've bolded the word "massive" above. Did you not say this? How am I misquoting here?


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 Post subject: Re: Best Infield Defense
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 2:28 pm 
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My bad

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