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 Post subject: Pirates offer Sanchez/Wilson contract extensions
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 2:02 am 
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http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09198/98 ... irates.xml

I personally like this, I'm willing to bet that they would accept a pay cut as well. It's a good move by the front office, as I see us having no real options here.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates offer Sanchez/Wilson contract extensions
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 2:05 am 
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This news made my day. And that was after spending a pleasant evening on the Santa Monica pier.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates offer Sanchez/Wilson contract extensions
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 2:10 am 
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Great news , next up we sign Sano


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates offer Sanchez/Wilson contract extensions
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 2:11 am 
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I still thinks this means if one of them doesn't sign they get traded, and even if they do they either get traded in the off-season or during next season. Along the same lines of giving Nate a new contract then trading him. I like it though because it will raise their value.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates offer Sanchez/Wilson contract extensions
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 2:13 am 
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I just hope the terms , mainly $$$ , do not put them in a positions tp get lowballed by Nutting INC.


The Pirates financial commitment to the 2 should end by the end of the 2011 season, at the latest.

There is nothing better out there , or in the lower levels of the Pirates organization, to replace them with.

The good defense is quite imporatant , with this new wave of players that will be on the roster by the 10 season, good defense up the middle is going to be the key.
No reason both those 2 cannot continue to play the same kind of game, both with the bat and the glove.

Omar Visquel (spelling), has played more games since he was 37, than Jack Wilson has played since he was 27, which i am just guessing, but would say is accurately stated.
Jw has been fairly healthy the last 150 games, minus the little nicks, scrapes and bruises, every other 30 + year old player gets.



Curious to see the $$$ side of it, but i think it is a good move.

Sign Sano, and have him be 'just about ready ' to take over sometime in 2011.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates offer Sanchez/Wilson contract extensions
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 8:02 am 
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Colin21 wrote:
I still thinks this means if one of them doesn't sign they get traded, and even if they do they either get traded in the off-season or during next season. Along the same lines of giving Nate a new contract then trading him. I like it though because it will raise their value.


Absolutely correct Colin. I don't think is being done in an attempt to lock them up for 3 more years here, it's being done to get us through the rest of this season and to increase their trade value (assuming of course the financial side of the ledger is palatable). Plus it is a huge PR boost as it will placate the "we trade all our bestest, most popularist players" crowd.

Edited to add that I just read the "no trade clause" part of the article. If that is indeed a component of both deals, then I don't do it. They'll both be 34 by the end of their contracts, and we could have $10+ million tied up in two has beens. Too risky for my liking.

Heck, Adam Everett is a free agent after this season. If he was a good enough stop gap for Minnesota and Detroit, he should be good enough for us. And he's good enough defensively to lessen the impact (a bad impact at that) of playing somebody like Young at 2b.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates offer Sanchez/Wilson contract extensions
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 8:45 am 
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This is the management team recognizing several things:

1. They have no internal replacements for either player for at least two more seasons. My guess is the Pirates have been trying over the past year to find some, but have not been able to get them included in the recent trades.

2. The Pirates value their defense. Huntingdon has been rebuilding the pitching staff throughout the organization. Defense will make those pitchers better. Their offensive skills will start to decline, but probably be good enough to get them through two more seasons.

3. The team has leverage right now. Like last off-season, it is not good to be a free agent this off-season. Player values have dropped. Neither of these guys will get big money when they leave here. But what they can get is security. Give them three or four year contracts with a lower $ value then they have been getting. It works for all parties.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates offer Sanchez/Wilson contract extensions
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 8:49 am 
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bucco boy wrote:
This is the management team recognizing several things:

1. They have no internal replacements for either player for at least two more seasons. My guess is the Pirates have been trying over the past year to find some, but have not been able to get them included in the recent trades.

2. The Pirates value their defense. Huntingdon has been rebuilding the pitching staff throughout the organization. Defense will make those pitchers better. Their offensive skills will start to decline, but probably be good enough to get them through two more seasons.

3. The team has leverage right now. Like last off-season, it is not good to be a free agent this off-season. Player values have dropped. Neither of these guys will get big money when they leave here. But what they can get is security. Give them three or four year contracts with a lower $ value then they have been getting. It works for all parties.


Great points BB...


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates offer Sanchez/Wilson contract extensions
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 9:02 am 
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Truthfully, I think they will get it done somehow, and without hamstringing the organization. I'm excited about this. These two positions were the only question marks in a 2011 team that I believe will contend for the division title. Having those two locked and loaded there makes us pretty solid defensively.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates offer Sanchez/Wilson contract extensions
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 9:11 am 
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They will be required to have the no-trade though. Can't see anyway getting around that with the trades of the last two years. FO promises of fidelity won't mean a whole lot.

I don't have a problem with these guys going to 33 or 34 with the right salary. Some yoga, a little weight work, and a couple trips to the Ecuadorian jungle... they'll be sprite as spring chickens...

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates offer Sanchez/Wilson contract extensions
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 9:24 am 
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bucco boy wrote:
Give them three or four year contracts with a lower $ value then they have been getting. It works for all parties.


3-4 years with a no trade? Pass. I'd hate for the Pirates to get into another Jason Kendall-like situation, specifically contracts that will severly hamper our ability to conduct personnel moves in two or three years.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates offer Sanchez/Wilson contract extensions
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 10:23 am 
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Argentum wrote:
bucco boy wrote:
Give them three or four year contracts with a lower $ value then they have been getting. It works for all parties.


3-4 years with a no trade? Pass. I'd hate for the Pirates to get into another Jason Kendall-like situation, specifically contracts that will severly hamper our ability to conduct personnel moves in two or three years.


Agreed. One of the appealing things about this is that it will serve to increase their value for potential trades later if the money doesn't block interest from other teams. There should not be a no-trade claus. So, if they take a little less money, we should be willing to offer at least three years and maybe 4 for Freddy, who is more valuable because of his hitting.
bucco boy wrote:
This is the management team recognizing several things:

1. They have no internal replacements for either player for at least two more seasons. My guess is the Pirates have been trying over the past year to find some, but have not been able to get them included in the recent trades.

2. The Pirates value their defense. Huntingdon has been rebuilding the pitching staff throughout the organization. Defense will make those pitchers better. Their offensive skills will start to decline, but probably be good enough to get them through two more seasons.

3. The team has leverage right now. Like last off-season, it is not good to be a free agent this off-season. Player values have dropped. Neither of these guys will get big money when they leave here. But what they can get is security. Give them three or four year contracts with a lower $ value then they have been getting. It works for all parties.


Agreed. This is a deal for both players and the team. It needs to happen and I don't know why none of us suggested it. I guess that's why we are not GMs and making the big bucks.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates offer Sanchez/Wilson contract extensions
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 10:35 am 
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Or here's an option. Seeing as how they are inseparable, born 8 days apart, and both from California, package them with Grabow and Snell or Gorzo, and offer them to LA Angels for Sean Rodriguez and Brandon Wood.

Sure would give the Angels a boost. Kendrick has been a disappointment, and Aybar and Izturis have been OK at short. They only have one lefty in their bullpen, and their number 5 starter has an ERA above 7. It should help them go pretty deep.

Could you imagine our 2011 lineup then?


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates offer Sanchez/Wilson contract extensions
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 10:43 am 
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Give 'em the no trade clause in exchange for a bit less bucks. They are both of the age that they will not be playing an indefinite amount of years, anyway, and this will give the bucs four or five years to really develop some replacements.

The Bucs needed to do this.....they needed badly a good PR move for what is left of their fan base. They certainly do not hurt themselves by doing this, and this was sorely needed.

I'll bet it works out. I hope so.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates offer Sanchez/Wilson contract extensions
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 11:11 am 
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If the lineup progresses as anticipated in '10 and '11, the Pirates can do much worse than a middle infield of Jack Wilson and Freddy Sanchez. Even if they end up hitting #7 and #8 in the lineup . . .

'10
CF - McCutch
2B - Sanchez
1B - ? (Jones)
C - Doumit
LF - Milledge
3B - LaRoche
RF - ? (Moss, Young)
SS - Wilson

'11
CF - McCutch
2B - Sanchez
RF - Tabata
1B - Alvarez
C - Doumit
LF - Milledge
3B - LaRoche
SS - Wilson

If, and it is a tentative "if," that is the 2011 lineup and it progresses as desired, I see no reason for people not to be fairly excited.

You are free not to like it but I think that anyone being honest with themselves can't help but see where Huntington is trying to go with this. Now . . . the real wildcard here is what happens if (1) Jack and Freddy don't sign; (2) Alvarez, Tabata and Milledge don't progress and/or (3) the pitching goes in the tank. How is Huntington going to adjust "on the fly?" This last question is, IMO, why you need to have the depth in the minors so that you can make some adjustments "on the fly" so that you do not need to gut some of the key guys in an effort to fill the gaps.

My thoughts are independent of how the fan base would react to signing Jack/Freddy but, let's face it, it would likely be perceived well by the fan base. If it makes good baseball sense and appeases fans as well . . . isn't that the proverbial "win-win?"

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates offer Sanchez/Wilson contract extensions
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 11:19 am 
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Substitute2 wrote:
Agreed. This is a deal for both players and the team. It needs to happen and I don't know why none of us suggested it. I guess that's why we are not GMs and making the big bucks.


Actually Sub . . . this was a topic of discussion about 2-3 weeks ago with several posters opining that keeping both Freddy and Jack was a good thing. Though I'm pretty sure that no one proposed a package deal (kudos to "the best management team in baseball" for outside the box thinking).

Again, whether you like Nutting, Coonelly or Huntington or not, if they get Sanchez and Wilson to sign a "package" deal, this is yet another example of the management team employing a strategy that is somewhat atypical. Remember when NH grabbed some Latin players in the minor league Rule 5 draft and how that caught some teams with their pants around their ankles? Trading McLouth certainly raised eyebrows as did trading Morgan for a reputedly troubled Milledge. Like them or not, they certainly appear to be "game players" who are being creative in an effort to build a team.

And, yes, I'll beat certain people to it. The measure of success will be in the wins column over the next two years. And there is no guarantee of success. But, at least at this stage, I'm encouraged by what I see as some real brainwork being done in the front office.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates offer Sanchez/Wilson contract extensions
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 11:24 am 
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Jones could also be in that 2011 mix too as the first baseman. That would move Alvarez across the diamond. It depends on how he progresses with the leather. We don't want him making a career-long tribute to Michael Jackson- wearing just one glove for no apparent reason.

Not only that, but the rotation might be:

Morton
Lincoln
Mahlom
Duke
Ohlendorf

with backups as McCutchen, Dumatrait, or Gorzo.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates offer Sanchez/Wilson contract extensions
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 11:27 am 
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I'm skeptical that this will happen.

First off, coming to agreement with two different agents on two different deals that are, allegedly, dependent on each other, all within the next week or so, sounds pretty challenging logistically to me.

Second, Sanchez has an easily "vestable" $8 million dollar option for next year. So any agreement with him for more than one year would have to be well above $8 million. How much above that should and will the Pirates be willing to go? I would expect not very much. This is similar to the Max Starks scenario that the Steelers had to deal with. They managed to figure it out but not until the second time around.

Third, as others have mentioned, do you really think the Pirates will add a no-trade option when they never have before? That sets a dangerous precedent. And would you accept a contract for below market value if you were Wilson or Sanchez without a no trade? I wouldn't.

Finally, I like Jack and Freddy; I'm sure there's some sincerity in their expressed desire to stay in Pittsburgh. But I think it's partially just smart PR on their part, just as it was with Jason Bay last year. I have my doubts that they would really take a below market deal to stay in Pittsburgh.

We'll see...


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates offer Sanchez/Wilson contract extensions
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 11:34 am 
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burghermeister wrote:
I'm skeptical that this will happen.

First off, coming to agreement with two different agents on two different deals that are, allegedly, dependent on each other, all within the next week or so, sounds pretty challenging logistically to me.

Second, Sanchez has an easily "vestable" $8 million dollar option for next year. So any agreement with him for more than one year would have to be well above $8 million. How much above that should and will the Pirates be willing to go? I would expect not very much. This is similar to the Max Starks scenario that the Steelers had to deal with. They managed to figure it out but not until the second time around.

Third, as others have mentioned, do you really think the Pirates will add a no-trade option when they never have before? That sets a dangerous precedent. And would you accept a contract for below market value if you were Wilson or Sanchez without a no trade? I wouldn't.

Finally, I like Jack and Freddy; I'm sure there's some sincerity in their expressed desire to stay in Pittsburgh. But I think it's partially just smart PR on their part, just as it was with Jason Bay last year. I have my doubts that they would really take a below market deal to stay in Pittsburgh.

We'll see...


It also allows management to show the fanbase who thinks you shouldn't trade anyone off of the 97 loss team that it "tried" to sign these guys but it didn't work out. So maybe a shrewd PR move on managements part also to get this info out there and put them in a good light as well. I, like you BM, am a bit skeptical.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates offer Sanchez/Wilson contract extensions
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 11:41 am 
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I was hoping we could somehow keep Freddy. He is playing great ball. I'm on the fence with Jack. If we can get something good in a trade, well do it. But I can certainly live with Jack staying. They do play well together.


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