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 Post subject: Re: Moss vs Jones vs DYoung vs Milledge.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:43 pm 
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Az Bucco fan wrote:
Outfield defense is something that needs to be seen. It includes factors like arm strength, range, ability to get a good jump and to take the proper route to the ball. I would guess that Clemente would not have been considered a great outfielder if the metrics were the only determining factor.

Measurements like UZR are actually pretty good and tend to equal what we see. Nyjer Morgan covered a lot of ground, and no surprise that his "metric" defensive rating in LF was the best in baseball this year.

And Clemente is rated as the best defensive RF'er in baseball from 1956 to present per Total Zone Rating (TZR).

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/artic ... 56-part-2/

The stat does not even include arm, while UZR does. When arm is taken into account, Clemente is well above other players, and Baseball Reference indicates that his defense was worth 12 runs per year, on average.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/playe ... html?redir

In his prime defensive years (1957-1966), Clemente's defense was worth between 16 and 27 runs per year in RF. That is one of the highest ever for an OF'er, along the lines of Willie Mays. Only Al Kaline was close to this defense in RF.


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 Post subject: It's All Greek To Me...
PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:46 pm 
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So how does Milledge's defense compare to Moss's then?

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 Post subject: Re: It's All Greek To Me...
PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:58 pm 
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Animal wrote:
So how does Milledge's defense compare to Moss's then?

Milledge is above average as a major league LF'er (1.3), but below-average as a CF'er and RF'er.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/playe ... html?redir


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 Post subject: Re: Moss vs Jones vs DYoung vs Milledge.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 9:35 pm 
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burghermeister wrote:
I'm convinced the LaRoche will be traded before the end of the month. After that, I put Jones at first, Moss and Milledge in the corners and Delwyn Young as the first guy off the bench for the rest of the season.


I was thinking about this yesterday. An LaRoche is just about completely untradeable. Off the top of my head I would say he is the LEAST productive first baseman in the National League - and he still has more than three million bucks coming to him. Who would want him to begin with, let alone give anything up for him?

However, just because you're stuck with him, doesn't mean he has to play. The money is wasted anyhow, I'd just DFA him and be done with it. He's clogging up the roster. Bench/release him and bring up Milledge now. Not later. Now. Let's see what he's got.

Go with Jones at first, Moss and Milledge every day. When they move Freddie then go with Young every day at 2B.

Can this Salazar guy play at all? Nobody knows - we never see him. His AB's are being urinated away by LaRoche. This has to stop immediately.

What's the worst can happen? NONE of these guys can possibly be worse than Handy Andy.


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 Post subject: Re: Moss vs Jones vs DYoung vs Milledge.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 9:37 pm 
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Animal wrote:
Also, they are not charged with errors on balls they SHOULD have got to but did not.



Exactly, and errors/chances are the only thing that show up in fielding percentage, which is why it's not a good indicator of outfield ability.


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 Post subject: Re: Moss vs Jones vs DYoung vs Milledge.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 9:39 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
Az Bucco fan wrote:
Outfield defense is something that needs to be seen. It includes factors like arm strength, range, ability to get a good jump and to take the proper route to the ball. I would guess that Clemente would not have been considered a great outfielder if the metrics were the only determining factor.

Measurements like UZR are actually pretty good and tend to equal what we see. Nyjer Morgan covered a lot of ground, and no surprise that his "metric" defensive rating in LF was the best in baseball this year.

And Clemente is rated as the best defensive RF'er in baseball from 1956 to present per Total Zone Rating (TZR).

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/artic ... 56-part-2/

The stat does not even include arm, while UZR does. When arm is taken into account, Clemente is well above other players, and Baseball Reference indicates that his defense was worth 12 runs per year, on average.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/playe ... html?redir

In his prime defensive years (1957-1966), Clemente's defense was worth between 16 and 27 runs per year in RF. That is one of the highest ever for an OF'er, along the lines of Willie Mays. Only Al Kaline was close to this defense in RF.


Ok, sorry Bucfan, didn't realize you were looking at CF only. The numbers I cited from BP are career at all OF positions.


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 Post subject: Re: Moss vs Jones vs DYoung vs Milledge.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:08 pm 
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Matt Morris wrote:
burghermeister wrote:
I'm convinced the LaRoche will be traded before the end of the month. After that, I put Jones at first, Moss and Milledge in the corners and Delwyn Young as the first guy off the bench for the rest of the season.


I was thinking about this yesterday. An LaRoche is just about completely untradeable.

Not as untradable as you were, I would venture.

Quote:
Off the top of my head I would say he is the LEAST productive first baseman in the National League - and he still has more than three million bucks coming to him. Who would want him to begin with, let alone give anything up for him?

I think you have to play LaRoche until the end of July. He's libel to get hot again. When he does, teams will remember his history of strong 2nd halves. The Pirates may need to eat some of his salary but he'll probably bring something in return if they agree to do that.


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 Post subject: That's Really Not True
PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:14 pm 
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Matt Morris wrote:
burghermeister wrote:
I'm convinced the LaRoche will be traded before the end of the month. After that, I put Jones at first, Moss and Milledge in the corners and Delwyn Young as the first guy off the bench for the rest of the season.


I was thinking about this yesterday. An LaRoche is just about completely untradeable. Off the top of my head I would say he is the LEAST productive first baseman in the National League - and he still has more than three million bucks coming to him. Who would want him to begin with, let alone give anything up for him?

However, just because you're stuck with him, doesn't mean he has to play. The money is wasted anyhow, I'd just DFA him and be done with it. He's clogging up the roster. Bench/release him and bring up Milledge now. Not later. Now. Let's see what he's got.

Go with Jones at first, Moss and Milledge every day. When they move Freddie then go with Young every day at 2B.

Can this Salazar guy play at all? Nobody knows - we never see him. His AB's are being urinated away by LaRoche. This has to stop immediately.

What's the worst can happen? NONE of these guys can possibly be worse than Handy Andy.


Yes, Adam LaRoche has slumped of late, but he really is not among the worst 1b in the league. He is near the middle of the pack in most categories. Among 1b in the majors, LaRoche ranks 15th in HR, 5th in doubles, 12th in runs, 20th in RBI and 20th in BA. HE is probably among the best fielding 1b. You could do worse than Andy, and if we would trade him, we probably would!

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 Post subject: Re: Moss vs Jones vs DYoung vs Milledge.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 12:43 am 
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Matt Morris wrote:
burghermeister wrote:



However, just because you're stuck with him, doesn't mean he has to play. The money is wasted anyhow, I'd just DFA him and be done with it. He's clogging up the roster. Bench/release him and bring up Milledge now. Not later. Now. Let's see what he's got.


What's the worst can happen? NONE of these guys can possibly be worse than Handy Andy.


I understand the frustration but they will not DFA Andy LaRoche. If they benched him he would leave as a free agent and assuming no changes to the comp structure the Bucs would probably get a "B" free agent comp pick. That's not going to happen anyway because he is not as bad as we perceive as fans.

On a final note, be careful what you wish for because in one sense the worse he plays the more likely it is IMO that he sign a 2-3 year deal w/ the Pirates to play w/ his brother.

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 Post subject: Re: That's Really Not True
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 12:43 am 
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Animal wrote:
Matt Morris wrote:
burghermeister wrote:
I'm convinced the LaRoche will be traded before the end of the month. After that, I put Jones at first, Moss and Milledge in the corners and Delwyn Young as the first guy off the bench for the rest of the season.


I was thinking about this yesterday. An LaRoche is just about completely untradeable. Off the top of my head I would say he is the LEAST productive first baseman in the National League - and he still has more than three million bucks coming to him. Who would want him to begin with, let alone give anything up for him?

However, just because you're stuck with him, doesn't mean he has to play. The money is wasted anyhow, I'd just DFA him and be done with it. He's clogging up the roster. Bench/release him and bring up Milledge now. Not later. Now. Let's see what he's got.

Go with Jones at first, Moss and Milledge every day. When they move Freddie then go with Young every day at 2B.

Can this Salazar guy play at all? Nobody knows - we never see him. His AB's are being urinated away by LaRoche. This has to stop immediately.

What's the worst can happen? NONE of these guys can possibly be worse than Handy Andy.


Yes, Adam LaRoche has slumped of late, but he really is not among the worst 1b in the league. He is near the middle of the pack in most categories. Among 1b in the majors, LaRoche ranks 15th in HR, 5th in doubles, 12th in runs, 20th in RBI and 20th in BA. HE is probably among the best fielding 1b. You could do worse than Andy, and if we would trade him, we probably would!


Holy Mixed Metaphors Batman!

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 Post subject: Re: Moss vs Jones vs DYoung vs Milledge.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 12:57 am 
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I posted on this last night in another thread. Sorry for the repeat but it fits better in this subject. This is my .02 on the matter.

Even though DY has been better offensively (certainly in 2009) Moss is the better overall player with a better upside. Moss has a higher WAR and a higher RAR among other metrics. Actually Moss beats Young in many overall stats as well as overall value. I too am disappointed in Moss, but he is still better than Young.

Here is a link to my data: http://www.fangraphs.com/winss.aspx?team=Pirates&pos=all&stats=bat&qual=50&type=6&season=2009&month=0

I think we should play Moss and Jones until/if Milledge proves himself at AAA. If that happens I would work Jones into 1B/RF but still play Moss most every game.

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 Post subject: Re: Moss vs Jones vs DYoung vs Milledge.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:30 am 
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Moss has a higher WAR and a higher RAR among other metrics. Actually Moss beats Young in many overall stats as well as overall value. I too am disappointed in Moss, but he is still better than Young.


Do those stats translate over their entire careers as major leaguers, or just this year?.

If it is over their entire time, than those stats mean zip.
There are no charts, graphs or stats out there, that is going to make me believe that Moss is having a better offensive season than Young, this season, that is all that matters to me.
Tell me something right now, and try to be honest.

If Neil was willing to part with Jones, Young or Moss to a team that needed a bat, any kind of bat, in return for something minor, such as a player to be named later, or $$$$.
Which of these 3 would be the most demanded?
I would be stunned if ANY Gm would take Moss, his high UPSiDE and all, over the other 2 guys.

Moss is not a major league ball player, he is at best, the 23rd man on a decent team. He supposedly has the versatility to play 1st base, even though i don't recall him ever playing there as a Pirate. Moss should also adorn the label as a left handed pinch hitter

Whether he bats early or late, really makes no difference.The patented 1 hopper to 1st or the K3 called most often be the end result of his futile effort.
I am not totally anti moss, i thing Moss has proved he can and is a respectable defensive player. that baserunners must be respectful of.

He does have an above average arm, and good instincts for tracking balls. On most occasions, he will throw the ball in the correct vicinity, after he finally catches up to it.
Moss is a left handed version of former Phillie, Jerry Martin. The team will start to turn it around, when he is cemented in that exact same role, and quit playing the High Upside card with him.
Obviously, he should have shown alot more that he has, and he has had ample opportunity to show his stuff.
Problem is, he just doesn't have what it takes, to be counted on as a consistent gap power hitter, and a run producer.

Oh well, i guess he falls into that 25% barrel.
Not a big deal if this guy turns out to be pretty much a failure. He was never seriously considered a big part of the overall championship picture.

Neil was just hoping to catch lightning in a bottle with more than 1 part of the Bay trade, even though Morris is an unknown piece at the present time.
If Morris can come through, and Andy La Roche keeps improving, which he should, it won't be the worst trade this organization has ever made.
It really has boiled down to a 2 for 1, because Hanson and Moss are pretty much filler.


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 Post subject: Re: Moss vs Jones vs DYoung vs Milledge.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 9:15 am 
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palushock wrote:
Moss has a higher WAR and a higher RAR among other metrics. Actually Moss beats Young in many overall stats as well as overall value. I too am disappointed in Moss, but he is still better than Young.


Do those stats translate over their entire careers as major leaguers, or just this year?.

If it is over their entire time, than those stats mean zip.
There are no charts, graphs or stats out there, that is going to make me believe that Moss is having a better offensive season than Young, this season, that is all that matters to me.
Tell me something right now, and try to be honest.

If Neil was willing to part with Jones, Young or Moss to a team that needed a bat, any kind of bat, in return for something minor, such as a player to be named later, or $$$$.
Which of these 3 would be the most demanded?
I would be stunned if ANY Gm would take Moss, his high UPSiDE and all, over the other 2 guys.

Moss is not a major league ball player, he is at best, the 23rd man on a decent team. He supposedly has the versatility to play 1st base, even though i don't recall him ever playing there as a Pirate. Moss should also adorn the label as a left handed pinch hitter

Whether he bats early or late, really makes no difference.The patented 1 hopper to 1st or the K3 called most often be the end result of his futile effort.
I am not totally anti moss, i thing Moss has proved he can and is a respectable defensive player. that baserunners must be respectful of.

He does have an above average arm, and good instincts for tracking balls. On most occasions, he will throw the ball in the correct vicinity, after he finally catches up to it.
Moss is a left handed version of former Phillie, Jerry Martin. The team will start to turn it around, when he is cemented in that exact same role, and quit playing the High Upside card with him.
Obviously, he should have shown alot more that he has, and he has had ample opportunity to show his stuff.
Problem is, he just doesn't have what it takes, to be counted on as a consistent gap power hitter, and a run producer.

Oh well, i guess he falls into that 25% barrel.
Not a big deal if this guy turns out to be pretty much a failure. He was never seriously considered a big part of the overall championship picture.

Neil was just hoping to catch lightning in a bottle with more than 1 part of the Bay trade, even though Morris is an unknown piece at the present time.
If Morris can come through, and Andy La Roche keeps improving, which he should, it won't be the worst trade this organization has ever made.
It really has boiled down to a 2 for 1, because Hanson and Moss are pretty much filler.



What in the world are you looking at?? Look at the stats. Look at his entire career, not a couple months this year. Moss has been good everywhere he has been, at every level. He is having an off year. Not only has be been better than Young, he has been better than Milledge throughout their careers.

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 Post subject: Re: Moss vs Jones vs DYoung vs Milledge.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 10:21 am 
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BostonBuc wrote:
Matt Morris wrote:
burghermeister wrote:



However, just because you're stuck with him, doesn't mean he has to play. The money is wasted anyhow, I'd just DFA him and be done with it. He's clogging up the roster. Bench/release him and bring up Milledge now. Not later. Now. Let's see what he's got.


What's the worst can happen? NONE of these guys can possibly be worse than Handy Andy.


I understand the frustration but they will not DFA Andy LaRoche. If they benched him he would leave as a free agent and assuming no changes to the comp structure the Bucs would probably get a "B" free agent comp pick. That's not going to happen anyway because he is not as bad as we perceive as fans.

On a final note, be careful what you wish for because in one sense the worse he plays the more likely it is IMO that he sign a 2-3 year deal w/ the Pirates to play w/ his brother.

I would just like to state, for the record, that I did not write what is attributed to me here. Someone got their quote tags mixed up.

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming...


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 Post subject: Re: Moss vs Jones vs DYoung vs Milledge.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:10 am 
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Sorry Burghermeister. I messed up the quotes trying to avoid the embedded quote rule.

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 Post subject: Re: Moss vs Jones vs DYoung vs Milledge.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:12 am 
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BostonBuc wrote:
Sorry Burghermeister. I messed up the quotes trying to avoid the embedded quote rule.

No biggy. Just wanted to issue a clarification to avoid confusion.


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 Post subject: Re: Moss vs Jones vs DYoung vs Milledge.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 12:49 pm 
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Fortunately we have the luxury of editing our posts. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Moss vs Jones vs DYoung vs Milledge.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 1:09 pm 
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At some point, they need to take Moss and just put him in the lineup and leave him there for 3-4 months, not this 2 days here, 1 day there, 3 days here crap. You can't find a groove that way.


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 Post subject: Re: Moss vs Jones vs DYoung vs Milledge.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:09 pm 
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Az Bucco fan wrote:
At some point, they need to take Moss and just put him in the lineup and leave him there for 3-4 months, not this 2 days here, 1 day there, 3 days here crap. You can't find a groove that way.


Moss is just getting the Steven Pearce treatment...a year later than Pearce.


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 Post subject: Re: Moss vs Jones vs DYoung vs Milledge.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:37 pm 
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Animal wrote:
palushock wrote:
Moss has a higher WAR and a higher RAR among other metrics. Actually Moss beats Young in many overall stats as well as overall value. I too am disappointed in Moss, but he is still better than Young.


Do those stats translate over their entire careers as major leaguers, or just this year?.

If it is over their entire time, than those stats mean zip.
There are no charts, graphs or stats out there, that is going to make me believe that Moss is having a better offensive season than Young, this season, that is all that matters to me.
Tell me something right now, and try to be honest.

If Neil was willing to part with Jones, Young or Moss to a team that needed a bat, any kind of bat, in return for something minor, such as a player to be named later, or $$$$.
Which of these 3 would be the most demanded?
I would be stunned if ANY Gm would take Moss, his high UPSiDE and all, over the other 2 guys.

Moss is not a major league ball player, he is at best, the 23rd man on a decent team. He supposedly has the versatility to play 1st base, even though i don't recall him ever playing there as a Pirate. Moss should also adorn the label as a left handed pinch hitter

Whether he bats early or late, really makes no difference.The patented 1 hopper to 1st or the K3 called most often be the end result of his futile effort.
I am not totally anti moss, i thing Moss has proved he can and is a respectable defensive player. that baserunners must be respectful of.

He does have an above average arm, and good instincts for tracking balls. On most occasions, he will throw the ball in the correct vicinity, after he finally catches up to it.
Moss is a left handed version of former Phillie, Jerry Martin. The team will start to turn it around, when he is cemented in that exact same role, and quit playing the High Upside card with him.
Obviously, he should have shown alot more that he has, and he has had ample opportunity to show his stuff.
Problem is, he just doesn't have what it takes, to be counted on as a consistent gap power hitter, and a run producer.

Oh well, i guess he falls into that 25% barrel.
Not a big deal if this guy turns out to be pretty much a failure. He was never seriously considered a big part of the overall championship picture.

Neil was just hoping to catch lightning in a bottle with more than 1 part of the Bay trade, even though Morris is an unknown piece at the present time.
If Morris can come through, and Andy La Roche keeps improving, which he should, it won't be the worst trade this organization has ever made.
It really has boiled down to a 2 for 1, because Hanson and Moss are pretty much filler.



What in the world are you looking at?? Look at the stats. Look at his entire career, not a couple months this year. Moss has been good everywhere he has been, at every level. He is having an off year. Not only has be been better than Young, he has been better than Milledge throughout their careers.



I don't need to see Moss's past stats, whether they be in the majors or minors.
I am using that fact that i actually watch him play ,and attempt to hit at the major league level,now, in 2009.

You want to use his stats for this season , and tell me he deserves to get more playing time?, because of his Potential and Upside, i am not buying it.

I don't get why there is so much pro Moss sentiment here on this board.
He has had plenty of chances to prove he deserves 500 ab's a season.
He does, but at the AAA level, not in the majors.

You state that, "Moss has been good everywhere he has been, at every level. He is having an off year.

Apparently good in the minors, or in limited playing time at the major league level is behind your reasoning to stick with him.
Having an off year, now , in 2009, when he finally gets his chance to be a major league starter, is kind of a shallow argument.

Here is hoping the Pirates braintrust, after watching his futile first half effort, realize his true pedigree, so his playing time for the remainder of the season can stronly reflect that.

I hope when the team comes back from the break, it doesn't forget Moss's LOW UPSIDE EFFORT , and give him a clean slate, to do it all over again, thus blocking guys who really deserve the lion's share of the AB's.

Would like to see this Tabata guy get a legit shot with the Pirates, this year, if the right field spot is going to be a constant revolving door that yields little production.
I like Delwyn Young, just don't know if his glove, or lack of it, will keep him from becoming a regular position player.
One thing i do know about Young is he is a hitter, not a 260.hitter like Moss has become, but one that can sustain a BA of around 300. , or better.

Since he has all this upside, i have been hearing about, they might just forget the first half of his season, and blame it on just bad luck.
John Russell is the manager of this team, just in case you forget, this wouldn't be the 1st or last dumb move he will make.


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